211 replies to this topic

[Hospy]

Kael 17, on 17 September 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

Lastly, it is unfortunate, but many do not bother to read the forums. As a result last night came as a rude and unpleasant shock rather than viewed as the opportunity it was.

I didn't get to participate in the event, but as far as I'm aware, the announcement for the Clan vs IS Matchmaking came about less than fifteen minutes before the event started.

[Docta Pain]

Communication has been through many different channels, which seems great, but I don't follow twitter, never will, and I expect to see things like this in the News, Command Chair, or Announcements sections, not General Discussion, even though I'm not a forum warrior.

Timing was quick, no time for anyone to adjust plans for something that would have been very interesting to participate in.

I played one match solo, we STOMPED the clan team since they let us take the hill in Alpine, so not even being clan let them recover from that kind of tactical error.

I 100% support adding lore engine heat for losing 2 engine crit from side torso destruction, but be careful and moderate with buffs to IS since some of the problem is with all clans being kings of their weight classes. I don't think it's all weight coast disparity, but some of it.

My most unbalanced matches are from ECM disparity between teams more than any other individual contributing factor.

[gondorff]

[edit: think I misunderstood something here. Maybe it was lost in the language barrier, dunno...]

In my opinion, the test was great. And if I am not mistaken, this was the second test, with the first one going mostly unnoticed. IIRC, some time before Wave 1. I am no expert in data aquisition, but, if I am not mistaken, seen from the point of view of a double-blind test, the fewer announcements there are, the better data you get. Maybe you could even randomize the on/off intervals for a prolonged period of time. Anyways, I wouldn't mind if it is running all the time.

Edited by gondorff, 17 September 2014 - 01:00 PM.

[Goose]

AThousandD, on 17 September 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

If it drives people away because they have some silly idea of fun being equally available to all, then so be it. Fun is meant for those who can afford it.

Prey-tell what you think of the concept of match maker …

[Richard Warts]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Okay I think I am going to bring the test down early at 6pm, we did manage to get some good test data - basically enough.

A few were upset about the test I guess railroading their night with matches that are unfair. A misjudgetment on my part I suppose, I thought everyone would love it. Perhaps most did.

Anyhow going to edit the original post and have the guys bring it down in 20 minutes.

You guys did what you had to. No shame in collecting necessary data

[Scratx]

Tabu 73, on 17 September 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

You guys did what you had to. No shame in collecting necessary data

And it was interesting data.

[Deathlike]

Jman5, on 16 September 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

Why do you say that? There are clan trial mechs available now for free, and almost half the clan mechs are already up for cbills. Anyone who has been through their cadet matches could afford a clan mech.

Daishi is the real bonus, but that's next week. 3 of 8 is still weak at this point in time (Kitfox being the best of the current bunch IMO).

There's only two Clan Trial Mechs... the Kitfox-Prime trial is awful (ill-armored, and certainly no ECM) and the Nova-Prime trial is built OK, but is limited to people's understanding of Ghost Heat to maximize it (the Nova-S technically being a more safe/better option to avoid Ghost Heat).

Getting the Kitfox outfitted was like paying for mediums. For mediums, it's far cheaper because you can share bigger/better engines. The Kitfox has that cost built in... which is rather pricey as it is. Buying 1 clan mech isn't really good enough in the 3-variant progression system...

Edited by Deathlike, 17 September 2014 - 01:43 PM.

[Mystere]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Here is the basic data collected from a sample of 268 IS vs Clan matches.

Clan win rate of 73%

This is a reduction from 90%

So actually I am pretty happy with seeing this change. Now we follow through on IS quirks and the Clan RT/LT changes.

My main issue with the test you are conducting is that your methodology is like using anyone from fighter aces to crop duster pilots to compare a Rafale to an SU-27.

Were those raw number taken without consideration for skill? Or was something else used to come up with those figures?

I guess what I would like to know is why are you using the general population, instead of only skilled players, in running these balance tests. Are you balancing based on the "average" pilot or something like that?

[Lord de Seis]

My experience from single drops is that clan mechs are almost always the last ones standing.

[NKAc Street]

Clan mechs are not supposed to be equal to IS mechs, what is the point here? Your tests should make a clan only team with 3 less players, then test that. Otherwise to try to balance the two is ridiculous.

[hercules1981]

Y would I want to buy a clan pack if all u r going to do is nerf the crap out of them once u get your money. I want to pilot a clan mech and feel better in every way then a mech of equal weight , hence the 10 vs 12 that's where the balance is stop screwing around with weapons! There was a statement put out not to long ago about staying with 12 vs 12 instead of trying 10 vs 12. That was a BIG MISTAKE.

[Rwraith]

I like the 10 vs 12 concept. If there are technical difficulties then work the issue and fix it. Best way to balance IMHO.

[El Bandito]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Here is the basic data collected from a sample of 268 IS vs Clan matches.

Clan win rate of 73%

This is a reduction from 90%

So actually I am pretty happy with seeing this change. Now we follow through on IS quirks and the Clan RT/LT changes.

Good job, Russ. Glad the difference have shrunk quite a lot. Eagerly waiting for the IS quirks and Clan XL changes.

[Kmieciu]

Kiiyor, on 16 September 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

The trouble is that IS under performers under perform like it's an olympic sport, and they're gunning for Gold.

This made me laugh so hard!

Yeshua Kerensky, on 17 September 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

or people who are new and can not afford the clan mechs.

The beauty of the clan mechs is that a great value for money:

-Stormcrow will be actually cheaper than a Shadowhawk upgraded to the same level. Free Endo/Ferro/DHS more than make up for Omnipod cost. And XL engines cost the same.

-A fully upgraded Spider is more expensive than Kitfox.

-Timber Wolf will also be a great value for money compared to a XL Orion (LOLWHUT?).

-And DWF-A costs only 25% more than AS7-K.

Any reasonable new player should wait and buy a more powerful clan mech for C-Bills.

Edited by Kmieciu, 18 September 2014 - 04:51 AM.

[Keyman1848]

Kirkland Langue, on 16 September 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

To say that I have no confidence in PGI would be an understatement - but I'm sure that even you guys understand that a few hours of testing does almost nothing to really get a good sense of the balance.

You know what players do when they know their results are being monitored? They behave how they expect they are supposed to behave - so players who believe that Clan is OP will tend to play with that mindset. Your results are tainted.

If you really want real results, you have to run the test for long enough such that players get away from their preconceived notions and start playing "normally". You should run it IS vs Clan straight on through until CW is actually released. It isn't like you stopped 2 friends from dropping mixed if they want to.

Not True - I played a number of matches but was unaware this test was active. I didn't play any different.

[Lily from animove]

Kmieciu, on 18 September 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

This made me laugh so hard!


The beauty of the clan mechs is that a great value for money:

-Stormcrow will be actually cheaper than a Shadowhawk upgraded to the same level. Free Endo/Ferro/DHS more than make up for Omnipod cost. And XL engines cost the same.

-A fully upgraded Spider is more expensive than Kitfox.

-Timber Wolf will also be a great value for money compared to a XL Orion (LOLWHUT?).

-And DWF-A costs only 25% more than AS7-K.

Any reasonable new player should wait and buy a more powerful clan mech for C-Bills.

But you pay a lot more. Because when on a IS mech you just wanna level two other chassis, you may be able to reuse the XL engine while on clan variants that you only buy for leveling the skills, you will have to pay the engine every time.

Jody Von Jedi, on 17 September 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

I agree, there are some bizarre loadouts out there. I try to offer some helpful suggestions when I encounter the inexperienced players in those sorts of builds without being insulting. I might ask them a question about it and then offer some constructive criticism.

Until all of the clan mechs in wave 1 are released for C-bills, the IS will continue to see the majority of the new recruits. Although having Clans available as trials helps out a lot. I think once wave 2 hits, they'll be more of an equalizing as new players will have a better selection of Clan mechs available for C-bills.

Other MMOs like Star Trek Online offer a player a choice when they register which side they're going to play for. If they choose, for example, Starfleet, then they have a character that uses Starfleet tech. If they choose Klingon, they they get Kingon tech. In fact, in the account you can have both a Starfleet character and a Klingon character.

If there was ever a reboot to MW:O perhaps it would be good to give the player the option to decide which side they're going to play for. If they choose IS, then they can't purchase or pilot Clan mechs, and vice versa.

Or even better, allow the account owner to have a sub account under the main account. When you log in, you have a choice to play your IS account or your Clan account. All of the mechs you own would still be there, but just separated into sub-accounts that share C-bills and MC, but just separate the tech.

Jody

but whats the sense of this? You don't level character, you level mechs and chassis, so basically your mech is your character. you just own many many characters from which you pick one before a game.it would be nice if we could have a chance without having to create a new account to also enter a IS faction using our IS mechs. So when I drop in my Phract I would automatically queue into the IS during Clan war side and its related Unit I may have joined.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 September 2014 - 06:15 AM.

[kotya]

I hope final accord will be Lances VS Stars.
12 VS 10, just as it should be, according to world of battletech!

[PeeWrinkle]

kotya, on 18 September 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

I hope final accord will be Lances VS Stars.
12 VS 10, just as it should be, according to world of battletech!

Exactly!

One thought I had is I am not sure what they mean by game balancing. If they mean equal tonnage in an IS vs Clan match equals a competitive/even match then game balance should never happen. Clan tech is more powerful and should be. All things being equal (Tonnage and Piloting Skill) Clans should rock the IS.

The balancing should come in the form of match tonnage being less for Clans or equal Clan number on each side if it is mixed. They work so hard trying to stick with lore they need to make it so that in IS vs Clan matches the Clans have less tonnage or a 10 vs 12 system. Which is 2 stars vs 3 lances, and ironically is closer to the BT lore. And also a much more wordy way of saying what Kotya already said!

If they spend all this time making IS and Clan equal how are they going to account for the improvements to the IS tech that should be on the horizon if they are following the timeline from lore in the game?

I also wonder about salvage and future possibility of Clan tech ending up on IS mechs in some fashion? Not sure how they would do it, but it is another part of the lore.

Just my thoughts.

[InvisibleTank]

I'll throw in my vote for 10 vs 12. If anything, just try it and see how it goes. Get some data and reactions from people. Hopefully PGI has kept their new MM code decoupled enough to allow this with a trivial configuration change. My guess is there's something in the legacy code that is making it more difficult...

[Kresteel]

This is how it goes for me