76 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

I would so LOVE to get my Victors back. I mostly brawled with them, not jump-sniped.

[Rhent]

12 v 12 IS vs Clan is possible. The main thing is to focus the IS ability to deliver focused damage in one spot to make up for the range disparity between Clan vs IS. Also what is needed is a desynching of weapon velocities between Clan and IS. The idea being that IS weapons will have a shorter range however they fire quicker and tend to do damage in one spot.

At this point, you are balancing for CW and not the free for all brawl it is now. IS Light pilots will carp IF they don't realize that the IS mechs with better focused fire and faster firing velocities will be firing at Clanners and not them.


1st) Allow IS AC's to fire in one shot and not stream (there has been some talk about making IS AC stream, DO NOT DO THAT)
2nd) Review increasing IS AC velocity
3rd) Modify IS ERPPC / PPC's so to have their velocity set to 1200 M/S (they now pair with IS AC/5's which would allow for focused fire from IS at the 500M to 700M range)
4th) Change the IS PPC min range to scale down in damage below 90M rather than do no damage below 90M
5th) Review an across the board buff to all IS Mech's turning abilities
6th) Release at least one IS assault mech that has 4+ AC slots that would allow dual AC/20's or dual Gauss to counter the direwolf. Annihilator/King Crab is a prime candidate. Also, set at least 2 AC mounts high and make it possible to mount 2 of the big AC's in the top mounts. Say a mech had 3 AC mounts in each side torso, then the player would have to mount 4 MG's to get 2 Gauss or 2 AC/20 to mount up top. Ensure the mech can effectively Hill Crest.
7th) Review decreasing the pulse time on IS lasers
8th) Look at IS SRM's and enhance their grouping in comparison to Clan SRM's
9th) Allow ECM to counter command module bonuses and targeting computer bonuses

Edited by Rhent, 16 September 2014 - 10:41 PM.

[Quxudica]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

These responses sum up my greatest concern for CW viability long term.

If it is anything less than 12v12 and perfectly balanced all but the very most diehard will gravitate to the Clans to feel dominating, or stop playing.

Remember BT 3025 was just IS, much easier.

We have a very difficult task ahead of us but we have a chance of doing something really special. I know many are passionate about 10v12 as am I at heart. But I have great concerns that it's viable in an online competitive computer game.

And I have to disagree, weapon balances do work, they have worked in games since the first game. All we need is the collective will to make it happen. Don't take this as I am going to nerf clans more thread, we have a couple things lined up first like IS Quirks which is really the same as saying buffs if you use them right.

Tough problem but we can get there

Asynchronous multiplayer is entirely viable (Natural Selection 2, various Alien games, Giant Citizen Kabuto etc), but the game needs to be designed around it. MWO really wasn't designed for it as far as I can tell and shoehorning it in without very careful consideration and probably major overhauls to MM systems and other balance factors would likely end as you fear it.

It's something that is only now starting to come back into fashion after having been gone a long time for the most part, but it's very hard to pull off well.

[Sheriff Cinco]

Another way to balance the CW matches between IS and clan would be tonnage along with 3/3/3/3.
Give the IS a higher tonnage percentage over the clan team. Maybe 5-10% ( testing required) This should be possible without major overhauls to the matchmaker, right?

Another balance feature could be a module that allows a IS mech to use a clan weapon. An adaptor module. One weapon mod slot for one clan weapon. This would even the playing field a bit without blurring the lines too much.

Thanks for the interaction Russ

[CocoaJin]

What if Clans use 2/4/4/2...IS use 3/3/3/3?

[CHH Badkarma]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Yes after IS I am sure we will quirk pass clans - they will get less because many are already Tier 1 mechs but some need some quirks

Good to know as the Warhawk in its bone stock OEM so to speak form is a PPC boat. poor thing needs some love. Much like the Awesome

[Kmieciu]

Warthunder does not match biplanes and jets fight together in a public match. You can try it in private mach, but I doubt it is fun form the biplane perspective.

But Warthunder was designed from the beginning to have a "tier" system where every plane has a "battle rating". They are free to make some planes clearly better than other, as long as they assign a correct "battle value".

MWO on the other hand was design on a principle that every mech should be equally useful. There always should be a balance between survivability, speed and firepower. Yet there are mechs that break that balance. They are both fast, durable and equipped with a high firepower.

We all know what they are called. To add insult to injury, they are not yet available for C-Bills.

[Wolfways]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

These responses sum up my greatest concern for CW viability long term.

If it is anything less than 12v12 and perfectly balanced all but the very most diehard will gravitate to the Clans to feel dominating, or stop playing.

Remember BT 3025 was just IS, much easier.

We have a very difficult task ahead of us but we have a chance of doing something really special. I know many are passionate about 10v12 as am I at heart. But I have great concerns that it's viable in an online competitive computer game.

And I have to disagree, weapon balances do work, they have worked in games since the first game. All we need is the collective will to make it happen. Don't take this as I am going to nerf clans more thread, we have a couple things lined up first like IS Quirks which is really the same as saying buffs if you use them right.

Tough problem but we can get there

So you aren't making a team game...
Funny how people complain about clan and IS not being balanced but they drop in mechs that are not balanced every day.

How about removing all player rewards and only having rewards based on how well the team did? Wait...that would seriously nerf my C-Bills/XP

Actually with a 12 v 10, being 2 down from the start is a huge disadvantage, plus being two stars means clans are less able to take and hold territory (Conquest).
But what do i know? I'm a team player.

[Wolfways]

Kmieciu, on 16 September 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

MWO on the other hand was design on a principle that every mech should be equally useful. There always should be a balance between survivability, speed and firepower. Yet there are mechs that break that balance. They are both fast, durable and equipped with a high firepower.

We all know what they are called. To add insult to injury, they are not yet available for C-Bills.

Are you really saying you think the IS mechs are balanced? Ever stood in front of a Jagermech before?

[Kmieciu]

Wolfways, on 16 September 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

Are you really saying you think the IS mechs are balanced? Ever stood in front of a Jagermech before?

Jagger is a great example of a mech with high firepower, moderate speed and low durability. XL versions are one of the most fragile mechs in the game. Alternatively you can put in a STD engine and get high firepower, low speed and moderate durability.

Better example of your point would be Shadowhawks which combined speed, firepower and durability to make the most useful medium mech before Stormcrow.

[Wolfways]

Kmieciu, on 16 September 2014 - 11:24 PM, said:

Jagger is a great example of a mech with high firepower, moderate speed and low durability. XL versions are one of the most fragile mechs in the game. Alternatively you can put in a STD engine and get high firepower, low speed and moderate durability.

Better example of your point would be Shadowhawks which combined speed, firepower and durability to make the most useful medium mech before Stormcrow.

Well that low durability is high enough for the JM6-S (with stock weapons) to easily go up against any IS mech bigger than a light. I've taken out a whole lance by myself more than a couple of times with that mech, and taken out a couple of Timber Wolf's at the same time.
I hate the Jager. I think it's ugly, and i don't like AC's. But it is my go to mech when i want an easy game because AC's are ridiculously OP. That's why the Dire Wolf is so dangerous...lots of AC's.

[Kmieciu]

Wolfways, on 16 September 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

Well that low durability is high enough for the JM6-S (with stock weapons) to easily go up against any IS mech bigger than a light. I've taken out a whole lance by myself more than a couple of times with that mech, and taken out a couple of Timber Wolf's at the same time.
I hate the Jager. I think it's ugly, and i don't like AC's. But it is my go to mech when i want an easy game because AC's are ridiculously OP. That's why the Dire Wolf is so dangerous...lots of AC's.

I mastered 3 jaggers and know a lot about running twin AC20, twin gauss or UAC5 boat. It is the best IS "direct support" mech. Which means someone has to do the tanking for him. If your up against someone that know what they're doing, they'll be gunning for your side torso. If it's a group queue and the enemies are on comms, you might not last more than one alpha strike.
I don't like fighting against them because often I don't even get the chance to get a assist bonus.

[kapusta11]

There should be gamaplay difference, while playing as an IS pilot you should benefit from teamplay greatly while Clans should emphasize on individual efforts. That may be achieved with C3 slave/master units. Clans should maintain their range advantage and be all about sniping and LRMing while IS should excel at medium to short range fights. It is partialy in lore when you talk about energy weapons for example, because of lower heat costs and 30 heat cap IS could actually do more damage when up close, alas in MWO energy weapons are useless for brawls as brawling require good sustained damage which you'll never have at current dissipation levels.

[Dark DeLaurel]

kapusta11, on 16 September 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

There should be gamaplay difference, while playing as an IS pilot you should benefit from teamplay greatly while Clans should emphasize on individual efforts. That may be achieved with C3 slave/master units. Clans should maintain their range advantage and be all about sniping and LRMing while IS should excel at medium to short range fights. It is partialy in lore when you talk about energy weapons for example, because of lower heat costs and 30 heat cap IS could actually do more damage when up close, alas in MWO energy weapons are useless for brawls as brawling require good sustained damage which you'll never have at current dissipation levels.

The thing is though, not all Clans adhered to the mandate of work as individuals. Wolf would work as a team, Hell's Horses, Nova Cat if i remember right and a few others I can't remember.

[Kiiyor]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

These responses sum up my greatest concern for CW viability long term.

If it is anything less than 12v12 and perfectly balanced all but the very most diehard will gravitate to the Clans to feel dominating, or stop playing.

Remember BT 3025 was just IS, much easier.

We have a very difficult task ahead of us but we have a chance of doing something really special. I know many are passionate about 10v12 as am I at heart. But I have great concerns that it's viable in an online competitive computer game.

And I have to disagree, weapon balances do work, they have worked in games since the first game. All we need is the collective will to make it happen. Don't take this as I am going to nerf clans more thread, we have a couple things lined up first like IS Quirks which is really the same as saying buffs if you use them right.

Tough problem but we can get there

This. I agree, we can balance with what we have.

Buff the bad IS mechs. Give the Clans (C) mechs, so they have the chance to have players who don't know that the little circle is meant to be aimed at the enemy, instead of the Atlas in front. Then we'll see.

[El Bandito]

Slepnir, on 16 September 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

As I'm sure your coming to realise by now , nerfing weapons doesn't work, messing with heat doesn't work, Mech quirks don't work either.

Actually, nerfing weapons worked to bring the Clan mechs more in line, messing with heat worked on PPC spam, mech quirks also worked on Hunchback and Awesome to make them less sucky.

So there goes your argument.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 September 2014 - 12:23 AM.

[EvilCow]

Some IS mechs are just one slot away from being viable, please consider this.

[kapusta11]

Dark DeLaurel, on 17 September 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

The thing is though, not all Clans adhered to the mandate of work as individuals. Wolf would work as a team, Hell's Horses, Nova Cat if i remember right and a few others I can't remember.

Well, I wasn't talking about lore and Clan's willingness to fight as a team. C3 units can be used as a gameplay mechanic to balance out Clans and IS. Command mechs that sacrifice tonnage for C3 master units (5 tons each) could provide bonuses to the rest of the lance/company to make IS and Clans even in strength.

[Dark DeLaurel]

kapusta11, on 17 September 2014 - 12:42 AM, said:

Well, I wasn't talking about lore and Clan's willingness to fight as a team. C3 units can be used as a gameplay mechanic to balance out Clans and IS. Command mechs that sacrifice tonnage for C3 master units (5 tons each) could provide bonuses to the rest of the lance/company to make IS and Clans even in strength.

Thing is it only works at lance level unless it is the Tai-sho which could mount two, and then each lance Mech needs to have one. Not to mention they are only good for targeting data and that is it, unless some other rule set came out that gives them more ability. So I am not sure how this would make an IS lance stronger.

[Rushin Roulette]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

We have a very difficult task ahead of us but we have a chance of doing something really special. I know many are passionate about 10v12 as am I at heart. But I have great concerns that it's viable in an online competitive computer game.

Actually 10v12 works very well.

I can say from the perspective of a competitive player, that matches in the Innerspherewars.eu resource league are very balanced with the clanner rules (For every 5 Clan mechs you have more than the opponent, you must bring 1 less player on your team). The meta there has gravitated to matches with 11(9 clan mechs)v12 (IS)mechs which is still more or less balanced, but it still gives the IS team a fighting chance.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 17 September 2014 - 12:58 AM.