76 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

Dark DeLaurel, on 17 September 2014 - 12:56 AM, said:

Thing is it only works at lance level unless it is the Tai-sho which could mount two, and then each lance Mech needs to have one. Not to mention they are only good for targeting data and that is it, unless some other rule set came out that gives them more ability. So I am not sure how this would make an IS lance stronger.

Clan Targeting Computer shouldn't provide crit chance bonuses either, and "targeting data" can involve a lot of things, it may include LRM indirect fire buffs, sometimes it's crucial to know whether that XL mech is cored or not and which side specifically, lots of stuff.

[Dark DeLaurel]

kapusta11, on 17 September 2014 - 01:02 AM, said:

Clan Targeting Computer shouldn't provide crit chance bonuses either, and "targeting data" can involve a lot of things, it may include LRM indirect fire buffs, sometimes it's crucial to know whether that XL mech is cored or not and which side specifically, lots of stuff.

Trust me as much of a Clansmen I am, I am not a fan of how the Targeting Computer and Command Console have been worked. Those are interesting but could be game breakers like knowing if an XL Mech is cored and which side. There will be no hard and fast rule on how to balance Clan vs IS, it never was in TT and doing it here in a real time is even harder.

Where everything goes sideways is when we dont start with the TT vales and tweak from there. Having things do what they didnt in the TT'verse here in game is what gave us our current ECM...So a lot of this needs to be planned very carefully.

[Slepnir]

Quote

I also see your signature, which is a CHH emblem. It figures, other than Joe Mallan, the only people wanting OP clan tech are Clanners.

Wow way to jump straight to misinformation and insults, lets keep it civil here.

First- I have been playing TT battletech since 1987. my primary faction is kurita (second swords of light and second deiron regulars) I also dabble a bit with victors old unit the 10th lyran guards.

Second- our gaming group always encourages players to choose forces from both sides to ad variety to our games. When it came time for me to choose a clan I didn't want any of the big 4 that pretty much everybody always chooses. so I looked at the home clans and found the horses appealing because they use combined arms and put more status on the skill of the warrior not the weapon he is assigned.

Third- and most importantly what I want is BATTLETECH as this is a battletech game, I want full in universe immersion. I want tanks, infantry, VTOLS, power armor, multiple objective maps, big maps, convoy escort duty, dropship assaults etc....not a closed sandbox solaris style arena game.

This is supposed to be the clan invasion, guess what happened in the clan invasion? a comparatively smaller, more advanced force using blitzkrieg tactics pushed into the inner sphere and was only stopped and then pushed back by the overwhelming resources and numbers the IS could throw at them. up to and including the destruction of an entire clan(sorry jags).

If you play clan in this game you should always have your A game on since you are always outnumbered and outgunned. that's immersion. I am just as happy taking my second swords of light mechs and pushing back the clan invaders with out using clan tech (heck I have several mechs running effectively stock TT weapons loadouts and I do well with them-wolverine 8K in the 7K chassi, grand dragon 5K on the flame, warhammer 7m on the orion K and so on) just as much as I am for switching it up and trying my skill at facing the hordes of surat freebirth with honorable combat.

This has nothing to do with being OP in fact the point of this thread was to keep things both balanced and maintain the immersion into the universe. believe it or not there are many old school players who dislike the clans so much they will never pilot a clan mech , use clan equipment, and will constantly fight against the clan invaders to protect their favored house.

Bandito-

Quote

Actually, nerfing weapons worked to bring the Clan mechs more in line, messing with heat worked on PPC spam, mech quirks also worked on Hunchback and Awesome to make them less sucky.

So there goes your argument.

What it actually did was royally piss off a greater number of the player base who supports the game financially, they are broken fixes for things that never should have been broken to begin with if they had not been implemented so poorly. prime examples-ghost heat. had they just used the 30 point heat scale already in the core game instead of 100, with the critical damage that occurs on your way to unavoidable shutdown, with proper heat sink mechanics boating simply could not happen with PPCs save a couple mechs actually designed to use them. as you would quite literally kill yourself in short order when alpha striking. Not doing it right from the get go when it is right there in front of you for free(battle value II instead of ELO for MM) doesn't justify fixes for things that never should have been a problem.

As it is where more than 2 years in and we are where we are, not a dig to much on you Russ since we don't get to see what happens behind the scenes as to why certain directions were taken, but this game survives because of the loyal fanbase to the IP, without the universe, without the lore the game dies just as surly as it will if it becomes the arms race to get clan tech that russ is trying to avoid.

[Bullseye69]

There was a adjustment to the victor and the highlander mech to reduce the mobility it had due to jump jets. When the patch fixing all jump jets was introduce after that patch was the original patch reverted back the reason i am asking is my highlander no longer jump jet kind of hover like the hover board from back to the future. Even maxed out jump jets i don;t get the high needed before the fuel rns out to get on top of building like i use to. It affects mostly the highlander and victor but even some of the lights don;t jump as good as before I use to be able to take a fully equipped Jenner and jump over a mech now kind of simply hang there like a ballon the height is no longer there.
The reason i am asking how will the highlander ever be able to do it death from above which it know for since it can;t even get high than the mech it trying to do this on. Since the ppc and ac patch jump sniping is a lot harder so might this be looked at in the future.

[kapusta11]

Dark DeLaurel, on 17 September 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:

Trust me as much of a Clansmen I am, I am not a fan of how the Targeting Computer and Command Console have been worked. Those are interesting but could be game breakers like knowing if an XL Mech is cored and which side. There will be no hard and fast rule on how to balance Clan vs IS, it never was in TT and doing it here in a real time is even harder.

Where everything goes sideways is when we dont start with the TT vales and tweak from there. Having things do what they didnt in the TT'verse here in game is what gave us our current ECM...So a lot of this needs to be planned very carefully.

With that I can agree completely. My proposal was aimed at how to impove what we actally have righ now. I doubt PGI will go back and rework heat sytem or come up with mecanic that represents hit allocation thus fixing pinpoint alphas, again, JJs would've never been a problem if we had 30 heat cap and them generating heat similar to how engine does, hell, 95% of the nerfs would not be needed.

Edited by kapusta11, 17 September 2014 - 01:41 AM.

[Dark DeLaurel]

kapusta11, on 17 September 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

With that I can agree completely. My proposal was aimed at how to impove what we actally have righ now. I doubt PGI will go back and rework heat sytem or come up with mecanic that represents hit allocation thus fixing pinpoint alphas, again, JJs would've never been a problem if we had 30 heat cap and them generating heat similar to how engine does, hell, 95% of the nerfs would not be needed.

That is the reason why I am not a fan of tacking things on to C3 to make it "viable" for MW:O. We dont break things more because what we have is already broken.

[Lily from animove]

Quirks can work, they just need to play around with them and find the right ones.

[IsaAurinkoinen]

There is still huge balance issue IS vs Clans. Once a week we drop 12vs12 matches IS mechs only. Oh dear how much harder we need to play to get wins compared that we normally play with mixed/clan tech.

Forget lore, forget TT, lets hope that PGI will balance ISvsClan where all have fun, even if they need to ditch weight of the history. I think that problem isn't clan weapons, problem is 3 of the chassis's. 5 of them are quite balanced or even little bit underpowered. Give those 3 chassis's Victor threatment and game should be quite well balanced. IMHO

[Dark DeLaurel]

IsaAurinkoinen, on 17 September 2014 - 02:14 AM, said:

There is still huge balance issue IS vs Clans. Once a week we drop 12vs12 matches IS mechs only. Oh dear how much harder we need to play to get wins compared that we normally play with mixed/clan tech.

Does the side running all Inner Sphere change their tactics or try and treat the Clan side the same they would any normal full Inner Sphere team? That is the deciding factor, getting people to play differently against the Clans rather then keep on trying the same things that work for the IS.

[IsaAurinkoinen]

Of course, we have to play differently. You will not be able to play in the same way a brawl- or a snipe orientated teams either. Some of the more usually seen commends how to "counter" some of the clan strenghts doesn't work agains more organised teams. FYI.

[Widowmaker1981]

Slepnir, on 16 September 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

That would be the auto spell correct.


On topic perhaps you should read my post again, NOBODY is going to be fodder. in fact it will be far more balaced than pauls little IS V clan test today which heavily favours clans when there are equal numbers. meta builds or not I am certain it will lead to much closer and fair fights with rewards balancing each other out. the only way to prove this is to test it and have Paul, Russ and the other devs see the results with their own eyes.


Side note, really tired of the canon fodder comments, it implies you're
A. a bad pilot
B. are not trying to fight back
c. are incapable of understanding what a 3 mech advantage gives you
D. you somehow think clans have magic armor where 50 points is not 50 points because its clan.

If clan mechs are expected to fight outnumbered, this implicitly states that they are more powerful, as such most people will gravitate towards them, im sure you can see the issue with most people gravitating toward the supposedly numerically inferior side?

Yes, having more people makes the MATCH balanced, but each individual IS pilot is weaker. Most people want to be the hero, not a member of a zerg, and (in my experience) individual performance means more to most people than team victory (at least in the solo queue, that is much less true in teams to be fair)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 17 September 2014 - 03:00 AM.

[Dark DeLaurel]

IsaAurinkoinen, on 17 September 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

Of course, we have to play differently. You will not be able to play in the same way a brawl- or a snipe orientated teams either. Some of the more usually seen commends how to "counter" some of the clan strenghts doesn't work agains more organised teams. FYI.

Oh i know that, why i asked. As most people just come back with "we tried to take them on without cover head long". I will agree that some tweaking needs to be done but to chassis not weapons.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Carrie Harder, on 16 September 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

About the quirks...might Victors get a reduction/removal of their previous negative agility quirks, now that they can't really poptart well anymore and they're facing the Clans?

If you are facing direwolf in victor direcly you are doing it wrong -.- .Even nerfed victor have with same engine(300) better agility than direwolf.

[Joseph Mallan]

MoonfireSpam, on 16 September 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

If you can find people that want to be cannon fodder, that's cool. Personally I think the idea of playing as fodder sucks.

And you'd need more players wanting to be fodder than wanting to blow stuff up (unlikely since people already gravitate towards "meta" rather than "fun builds").

Lastly: You're = you are, not "your". Such a pet hate of mine.

Bishop, Myself and a few others ran a Stock match over the weekend. IS v Clan. The IS side had a >100 ton advantage, and the battle was about even. Now we should test MODs and see if THAT can still be achieved.

[IsaAurinkoinen]

Mallan, that isn't bad idea at all. Compine (only in CW) 3/3/3/3 and for example 600 max tonnage for clans and 700 max tonnage for IS. Would be nice to test.

I personally would like more to change 3/3/3/3 to 3/5/2/2, but I dont think we have enough medium players for that.

Edited by IsaAurinkoinen, 17 September 2014 - 03:35 AM.

[Triordinant]

Just a thought: since enforcing Zellbrigen would be impractical, how about simply removing indirect fire capability from Clan LRMs instead of nerfing other Clan weapons severely? It would kind of comply with the Clan preference for unassisted combat and balance the fact that Clan LRMs have no minimum range.

Edited by Triordinant, 17 September 2014 - 03:52 AM.

[anonymous161]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

These responses sum up my greatest concern for CW viability long term.

If it is anything less than 12v12 and perfectly balanced all but the very most diehard will gravitate to the Clans to feel dominating, or stop playing.

Remember BT 3025 was just IS, much easier.

We have a very difficult task ahead of us but we have a chance of doing something really special. I know many are passionate about 10v12 as am I at heart. But I have great concerns that it's viable in an online competitive computer game.

And I have to disagree, weapon balances do work, they have worked in games since the first game. All we need is the collective will to make it happen. Don't take this as I am going to nerf clans more thread, we have a couple things lined up first like IS Quirks which is really the same as saying buffs if you use them right.

Tough problem but we can get there

Your last attempt at weapon balance with the clans obviously did not work out that great. It wasn't long before you had to again make changes to them and they are still not satisfactory overall, and your lack of listening to overwhelming feedback does not support your idea that nerfing or buffing is working. After years you guys still have not figured out how to balance the weapons properly you still rely on that joke of a ghost heat system.

[anonymous161]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 September 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

If clan mechs are expected to fight outnumbered, this implicitly states that they are more powerful, as such most people will gravitate towards them, im sure you can see the issue with most people gravitating toward the supposedly numerically inferior side?

Yes, having more people makes the MATCH balanced, but each individual IS pilot is weaker. Most people want to be the hero, not a member of a zerg, and (in my experience) individual performance means more to most people than team victory (at least in the solo queue, that is much less true in teams to be fair)

I believe they simply made the game impossible to make this a properly balanced game with clan vs IS mechs. The game is simple too small to support a true IS vs Clans war. It's just counter strike with mechs. 12/12 thats it and always likely to be. They didn't want to design a new engine and I understand it's expensive but well if you are not willing to shell out some money to make something that will support your vision then dont be surprised when people review this game rather mediocre.

Thats why I still enjoy the older games it felt like an actual war for the most part, like in Mercenaries last mission in the game had you facing dozens and dozens of mechs, tanks, drop ships was an epic battle that I wish this game did on a regular basis.

Personally I wouldn't be proud of this game if I were making it. They have to see that it comes up pretty short over all, not that they will ever admit that.

[LiGhtningFF13]

Just stop trying to balance/nerf everything thats possible. Clan tech is just way too advanced in comparison to the IS tech and thats quite good this way how it is done here in this game. Remember: It's a Battletech based game so deal with it!

[IsaAurinkoinen]

Darth Bane001, on 17 September 2014 - 03:58 AM, said:

... joke of a ghost heat system.

Ghost heat isn't real problem, so would you all "remove GH" people kindly stop bitching about it. GH isn't perfect system but it somehow works. Still I have not heard better solution, only "remove GH!" rant.

Same goes to 3pv. Barely barely no-one uses it, so stop worrying about it and please move on. If you use 3pv other that admiring you back of you mech you only hurt your self. There are bigger issues.

Sorry for OT lets move on.

Edited by IsaAurinkoinen, 17 September 2014 - 04:26 AM.