76 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

IsaAurinkoinen, on 17 September 2014 - 02:14 AM, said:

There is still huge balance issue IS vs Clans. Once a week we drop 12vs12 matches IS mechs only. Oh dear how much harder we need to play to get wins compared that we normally play with mixed/clan tech.

Forget lore, forget TT, lets hope that PGI will balance ISvsClan where all have fun, even if they need to ditch weight of the history. I think that problem isn't clan weapons, problem is 3 of the chassis's. 5 of them are quite balanced or even little bit underpowered. Give those 3 chassis's Victor threatment and game should be quite well balanced. IMHO

As claimed by many, the Victor "treatment" destroyed what made it unique. So in return you want 3 Clan mechs destroyed in the same way?

I think people would rather that the original Victor -- and other chassis -- be restored.

Edited by Mystere, 17 September 2014 - 07:25 AM.

[Mystere]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 September 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

If clan mechs are expected to fight outnumbered, this implicitly states that they are more powerful, as such most people will gravitate towards them, im sure you can see the issue with most people gravitating toward the supposedly numerically inferior side?

Hence my suggestion to Russ:

Mystere, on 16 September 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

So how about a radical idea. Bring the Clan vs. IS balance close (perfect balance is impossible) and then still implement 10 Clan vs. 12 IS?

The Clans were supposed to be better skilled. So let those skills show and have success playing as the Clans highly dependent on skill. Call it "hard mode". (and yes, I am serious)

Where do you think people will gravitate to then?

Edited by Mystere, 17 September 2014 - 07:32 AM.

[cSand]

I am so glad that Russ has said no to 10 v 12

SO GLAD

It's the worst idea for a game like this


If you really need to stay true to lore, continue playing TT.

Otherwise keep the TT away from Mechwarrior

Edited by cSand, 17 September 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Nerf us into tears and I will still call for 10v12.

Deploying in anything but two 5 mech stars just doesn't feel right.

[IceSerpent]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

These responses sum up my greatest concern for CW viability long term.

If it is anything less than 12v12 and perfectly balanced all but the very most diehard will gravitate to the Clans to feel dominating, or stop playing.

Remember BT 3025 was just IS, much easier.

We have a very difficult task ahead of us but we have a chance of doing something really special. I know many are passionate about 10v12 as am I at heart. But I have great concerns that it's viable in an online competitive computer game.

And I have to disagree, weapon balances do work, they have worked in games since the first game. All we need is the collective will to make it happen. Don't take this as I am going to nerf clans more thread, we have a couple things lined up first like IS Quirks which is really the same as saying buffs if you use them right.

Tough problem but we can get there

Russ,

I suggest you guys simply switch to BV mathmaking, as it would solve a whole lot of current issues, would allow for 10v12 and is technically easier to implement than matching by weight class.

You have two "hard" limits for number of players in a match:

- upper limit (max. number of players) is technical in nature, depends on processing capability of the server and rendering capability of the client. Let's say it's 24 players per instance, which is what we have now with 12v12 (so we know that it works).

- lower limit (min. number of players) is financial in nature, it's the smallest number of players per instance that is still financially viable. Let's say it's 16 players (8v8 that we used to have, just for illustration).

The matching itself only needs to ensure that total BV of team A is equal to toal BV of team B with all players taken from the same ELO bracket. It's kind of like dividing a pile of money between people - making sure that everyone gets equal sum (total value) is much quicker and easier than trying to give everybody same exact bill denominations, which may not even be possible. I.e. if you have $100 bill and 5 x $20 bills, splitting that equally between 2 people by value is a no-brainer, while splitting it equally by denomination is impossible.

This resolves majority of the weapon balancing problems, as better build translates into higher BV, which in turn translates into fewer teammates.
It also allows for uneven teams (i.e. 10v12).
Trial mechs become less of a death trap for new players, as they would have low BV and would end up either facing similar builds or having a numerical advantage.
Clan vs. IS balance becomes a non-issue - again, Clan mechs would have higher BV, so they will have smaller team.
Players that want to go for an "OP build" in order to dominate would face a choice:
1. Go for high BV, which will "eat up" large chunk of their team's total BV, so they have to actually "hard carry" their team.
2. Go for lower BV and split the "carry" responsibilities between more teammates.

[Prezimonto]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

Yes it will be flushed for the new quirks

Russ, you just made my day. I can't like that post hard enough. Back to my brawl Victors! The most fun to pilot mech I've found in this game.

[Valore]

I personally think its interesting that people say 'Oh, 10 v 12 will never work, no one will ever want to be Clan cannon fodder'.


If the game is balanced right, I think there are plenty of IS diehards who would love to show the Clanners their place 10 v 12 or 5 v 8.

One proposal I made a while back was to force anyone in a Clan mech to automatically be shunted into the group queue, as well as limit Clan group sizes. Promote the stereotypical mindset of personal glory.

Edited by Valore, 17 September 2014 - 07:04 PM.

[CocoaJin]

You are only Clan fodder if you lose. If 10 vs 12 is intended to balance the field, then it implies the IS would be competitive and just as likely to win as the Clans.

[Falcore]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

These responses sum up my greatest concern for CW viability long term.

If it is anything less than 12v12 and perfectly balanced all but the very most diehard will gravitate to the Clans to feel dominating, or stop playing.

Remember BT 3025 was just IS, much easier.

We have a very difficult task ahead of us but we have a chance of doing something really special. I know many are passionate about 10v12 as am I at heart. But I have great concerns that it's viable in an online competitive computer game.

And I have to disagree, weapon balances do work, they have worked in games since the first game. All we need is the collective will to make it happen. Don't take this as I am going to nerf clans more thread, we have a couple things lined up first like IS Quirks which is really the same as saying buffs if you use them right.

Tough problem but we can get there

Russ I personally find it frustrating trusting PGI on weapon balancing without full disclosure of metrics of what weapons are getting use and numbers behind it. I can do the math and crunch the numbers with modules and weapon systems on clan vs inner sphere. I recently did a breakdown on this with my guild for lasers and looking at other weapon systems. I know that you think you are trying to balance weapon systems but how you weight things like range and heat can vary via map and mech. If you were more open about that data I would tend to give you more credit for trying to balance things correctly.


MEDIUM LASER
5 dam 4 heat 1 ton
270m + 27 m for module
540m + 54 m for module
duration 1s
cooldown 2.85 -0.36 for module = 2.49 + 1 = 3.49
DPS 1.43 HPS 1.15 RATIO 1.24

LARGE LASER
9 dam 7 heat 5 ton
450m + 50 m for module
900m + 100 m for module
duration 1s
cooldown 3.09 -0.39 for module = 2.7 + 1 = 3.7
DPS 2.43 HPS 1.89 RATIO 1.29

ER Large Laser
9 dam 8 heat 5 ton
675m + 50 m for module
1350m + 100 m for module
duration 1.25 s
cooldown 3.09 -0.39 for module = 2.7 + 1.25 = 3.96
DPS 2.27 HPS 2.02 RATIO 1.12

C-ER MED LASER
7 dam 6 heat 1 ton
400m + 31.5 m for module
800m + 63 m for module
duration 1.25 s
cooldown 2.85 -0.36 for module = 2.49 + 1.25 = 3.74
DPS 1.87 HPS 1.60 RATIO 1.17

C-ER LRG LASER
11 dam 10 heat 4 ton
740m + 62 m for module
1480m + 124 m for module
duration 1.60 s
cooldown 3.09 -0.39 for module = 2.7 + 1.60 = 4.3
DPS 2.55 HPS 2.33 RATIO 1.09

[Metus regem]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

These responses sum up my greatest concern for CW viability long term.

If it is anything less than 12v12 and perfectly balanced all but the very most diehard will gravitate to the Clans to feel dominating, or stop playing.

Remember BT 3025 was just IS, much easier.

We have a very difficult task ahead of us but we have a chance of doing something really special. I know many are passionate about 10v12 as am I at heart. But I have great concerns that it's viable in an online competitive computer game.

And I have to disagree, weapon balances do work, they have worked in games since the first game. All we need is the collective will to make it happen. Don't take this as I am going to nerf clans more thread, we have a couple things lined up first like IS Quirks which is really the same as saying buffs if you use them right.

Tough problem but we can get there

I think Russ, if we were to look at the reward system, the way it works now it works okay for IS pilots that work as a team. This is extremely evident in the fact that assists are worth more than kills, and I for one like that, it promotes team work. That's how the IS started to beat the clans was through team work.

When it comes to the clans, the reward system would have to be different, it was nearly taboo in their culture to gang up on a mech, ideally everything was solved in duels, 1v1 for those that cannot be bother with a dictionary. If for CW clan pilots got a reward for fighting one mech at a time, and a deduction for ganging up on mechs, like enough to negate a full fresh to kill reward, if not a little stiffer than that, it may balance things out for CW as some omni-pod options are stronger than others on some chassis.

For me, a rewards change for playing clans like the one I roughly outlined above would suck for me, as assists are my bread and butter in the game. I would how ever pay the price, as I'm a ghost bear through and through.

[Bishop Steiner]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

Yes it will be flushed for the new quirks

This is good, since I can barely stand to touch my VTRs anymore, and I was always a VTR Brawler, never a poptart. I would love to have an Assault I WANT to drive again.

[RAM]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

Yes it will be flushed for the new quirks

Same with the Highlander I trust... Indeed will all IS mechs be flushed?


RAM
ELH

[ValkerieFire]

Use Zelbringen rules for clan pilots.

I am not sure if this will work, but it might. Clan pilots should follow Zelbringen, ie they should fight duels whenever possible and not "focus fire" (a group of mechs firing on a single target to take it down quickly) which is what the best IS pilots/teams do.

Clan pilots could be "forced" to practice Zelbringen by making the experience and C-bills system only reward them for following the practice. This means a clan player can only engage one mech at a time. If multiple clan mechs "focus fire" on a single IS mech, they should get an experience and C-bill penalty, unless that IS mech engaged them first. The only clan mechs that should be allowed to fire on the IS mech are clan mechs which the IS mech has fired upon first. This will mean that clan pilots will have to mark their targets, pursue them, and destroy them alone in order to gain kills, C-bills and experience.

This will severely handicap clan players who want to get more experience and c-bills. It won't hurt players who just want to win matches (ie scheduled tournaments won't be hurt), but those players would know they are acting dishonorably and their stats could reflect that.

Such a system could work and I think it is worth exploring.

Edited by ValkerieFire, 03 October 2014 - 09:59 AM.

[Xarian]

ValkerieFire, on 03 October 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

Use Zelbringen rules for clan pilots.

I am not sure if this will work, but it might. Clan pilots should follow Zelbringen, ie they should fight duels whenever possible and not "focus fire" (a group of mechs firing on a single target to take it down quickly) which is what the best IS pilots/teams do.

Clan pilots could be "forced" to practice Zelbringen by making the experience and C-bills system only reward them for following the practice. This means a clan player can only engage one mech at a time. If multiple clan mechs "focus fire" on a single IS mech, they should get an experience and C-bill penalty, unless that IS mech engaged them first. The only clan mechs that should be allowed to fire on the IS mech are clan mechs which the IS mech has fired upon first. This will mean that clan pilots will have to mark their targets, pursue them, and destroy them alone in order to gain kills, C-bills and experience.

This will severely handicap clan players who want to get more experience and c-bills. It won't hurt players who just want to win matches (ie scheduled tournaments won't be hurt), but those players would know they are acting dishonorably and their stats could reflect that.

Such a system could work and I think it is worth exploring.

You would be wrong. Experience/C-Bills have no bearing on in-game performance, for one. You could even get negative XP and C-Bills for piloting an overpowered mech, and people would still pilot it whenever they weren't farming for XP/C-bills. Second, your understanding of Zellbrigen is utterly inaccurate; it doesn't mean "I'm a HERO, quit JACKING my KILLS BRAH".

[Kain Demos]

Not only that but if the opponent didn't follow Zellbrigen then grand melee rules would apply.

[IceSerpent]

ValkerieFire, on 03 October 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

Use Zelbringen rules for clan pilots.

I am not sure if this will work, but it might. Clan pilots should follow Zelbringen, ie they should fight duels whenever possible and not "focus fire" (a group of mechs firing on a single target to take it down quickly) which is what the best IS pilots/teams do.

Clan pilots could be "forced" to practice Zelbringen by making the experience and C-bills system only reward them for following the practice. This means a clan player can only engage one mech at a time. If multiple clan mechs "focus fire" on a single IS mech, they should get an experience and C-bill penalty, unless that IS mech engaged them first. The only clan mechs that should be allowed to fire on the IS mech are clan mechs which the IS mech has fired upon first. This will mean that clan pilots will have to mark their targets, pursue them, and destroy them alone in order to gain kills, C-bills and experience.

This will severely handicap clan players who want to get more experience and c-bills. It won't hurt players who just want to win matches (ie scheduled tournaments won't be hurt), but those players would know they are acting dishonorably and their stats could reflect that.

Such a system could work and I think it is worth exploring.

It would be very difficult to design such a system:

1. As you've mentioned, a player can simply use IS mech as "money maker" and Clan mech for "important" matches (CW, tournaments, etc.) For competitive players the only important "stat" is victory, so "acting dishonorably" would only matter for those who RP and given how far the game has deviated from BT, I doubt that there are many of those folks still around.

2. How would you implement that "IS mech fired on me first" indicator? I.e. how would I know that this particular IS mech had hit me 3 minutes earlier?

3. How would you deal with different projectile speeds (i.e. I fire a PPC and my teammate hits the same target with lasers while my shot is still en route)?

[Metus regem]

Kain Thul, on 03 October 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Not only that but if the opponent didn't follow Zellbrigen then grand melee rules would apply.

Nice so I could shoot at the Wolves, Falcons, and Smoke Jaguars that I get stuck PUGing with on my team then.....