71 replies to this topic

[Piney II]

Wrenchfarm, on 17 September 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Opps, I found a big rock to hide behind or a friend with ECM. Please form an orderly line into my 6xUAC5 industrial mech drill, or my loLBX-60 shotgun wall, or maybe I'll just smoke you from across the map with the classic Peppers+Goose config. Or hey, let's play LRMboat vs LRMboat, I'll take an LRM60 pack and "backup" weapons that rival and IS heavies main load out.

Honestly, LRMs have feasted on large slow mechs since CB. We've all learned how to avoid them in our Atlai, what's the big difference here?

Yes, flanking, team tactics, LRMs, and such help deal with Direwolfs - but you can say the same for any assault. The difference is, when an Atlas or Stalker catches you out, he hurts you bad, he doesn't instantly remove a mech from the game. The Direwolf is crazy and only going to get worse.

I must be driving the wrong Dire Wolves..............I want one of these god mode Dire Wolfs you're talking about.

They pack some awesome firepower, but they're also easy targets. If I'm properly supported, I'm dangerous in a whale. If I'm not and I'm left alone - I'm easy meat.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

If you staring down any mech with PPC's at range, and those PPC's hit you, you were too slow in taking measures of avoidance.

[DasaDevil]

Wrenchfarm, on 17 September 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Meh, whatever. This is how people always defend glaring balance issues - snide remarks that insinuate a lack of skill.

I was right about Clan vs IS tech back when people were saying it was balanced (lol, 90% win rate), I was right about the Madcat obsoleting every other heavy, and I'll be right about this when the cbill version drops. Ignore these issues if you like, I'll have my fun eventually.

The issue at hand is that you're:

1) Clearly playing the solo queue
2) Clearly have no grasp on how much of a drag a Dire Wolf is to a team
3) Once again, stuck playing in the solo queue. Surrounded by pilots who are potentially new. And in an environment where slightly advanced tactics are nowhere to be seen.
4) Clearly have no sense of space as a Dire Wolf can sneak up on you.

Look, I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but you are 100% insulting me by telling me that we must NERF NERF NERF a mech because you get rolled by in in the solo queue. This is a personal problem, to be frank. Look at the big picture before you blame a single mech, because odds are if you're dying to a single Dire Wolf, you are either playing the game wrong by being overconfident in your ability to 1v1 it without having high speed and firepower (Shadowhawk / Stormcrow) Or that Dire Wolf is not alone, considering that most smart people move to protect it until it gets into position. In which case, you'd get rolled anyways for taking it (And it's buddies) on alone.

[Metus regem]

Kain Thul, on 17 September 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Funny and true. Often, if I get on a good run in a Dire Wolf suddenly I have a light or two poking at my back adn then I'm sure someone is laughing at my comical movements as I keep circling in different direections trying to put my back on a wall.

I actually had an epic backstab happen to me on Tourmaline Desert the other night. I was in one of those nice little nooks and most of the figh twas going on below but I had LOS on two of their LRM boats on the other side of the valley. Well after I started scoring hits on the LRM boats forcing them to retreat I started firing down into the main melee and suddenly I was just 1 hit killed and in my death scene saw a Timberwolf behind me.

Like most I run very little rear armor but I had stil never been 1 shot killed before that.

That might have been me, I run dual PPC's and quad SRM6 on my Timber Wolf, and that sounds like the match I had the other night in Tourmaline Desert... I'm a bit on the opertunisic side....

I was behind a Dire Wolf, and gave it an alpha in the back side....

[Mordin Ashe]

Dual gausses are great, but there are better weapons to couple them with than PPCs if you have the hardpoints and tonnage, at least for clans. UAC20 or several SMR6 will do you a better service.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 17 September 2014 - 09:07 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Metus regem, on 17 September 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

That might have been me, I run dual PPC's and quad SRM6 on my Timber Wolf, and that sounds like the match I had the other night in Tourmaline Desert... I'm a bit on the opertunisic side....

I was behind a Dire Wolf, and gave it an alpha in the back side....

You look...............familiar. Was that pure chance or did they ask you to get me out of there?

I had 100% "health" so congrats on 1-shotting a 100 ton mech without a headshot.

Edited by Kain Thul, 17 September 2014 - 09:10 AM.

[Want0n]

Kmieciu, on 17 September 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

I had a match yesterday against 4 Dire Whales on the enemy team. There were none at our team. How do you flank 4 Dire Wolves?
When I jump and dodge one DW alpha, I call it luck. Dodging 4 in a row would be a miracle.

I can beat that. 5 DWFs in one team against all-IS. I killed two, plus a couple of Timber Wolves, but 5 DWFs is just utterly ridonculous.

https://imageshack.com/i/kmMTngCNj

[Kain Demos]

Want0n, on 17 September 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

I can beat that. 5 DWFs in one team against all-IS. I killed two, plus a couple of Timber Wolves, but 5 DWFs is just utterly ridonculous.

https://imageshack.com/i/kmMTngCNj

Looks like that was only a result of the Clan vs IS testing.

In regular matches I think 4 is the most I've seen on a team but 3 is pretty common.

[Asyres]

Want0n, on 17 September 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

I can beat that. 5 DWFs in one team against all-IS. I killed two, plus a couple of Timber Wolves, but 5 DWFs is just utterly ridonculous.

https://imageshack.com/i/kmMTngCNj

While yeah, that's rough, kudos to you guys for a close, well-fought match.

[Wrenchfarm]

DasaDevil, on 17 September 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

The issue at hand is that you're:

1) Clearly playing the solo queue
2) Clearly have no grasp on how much of a drag a Dire Wolf is to a team
3) Once again, stuck playing in the solo queue. Surrounded by pilots who are potentially new. And in an environment where slightly advanced tactics are nowhere to be seen.
4) Clearly have no sense of space as a Dire Wolf can sneak up on you.

Look, I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but you are 100% insulting me by telling me that we must NERF NERF NERF a mech because you get rolled by in in the solo queue. This is a personal problem, to be frank. Look at the big picture before you blame a single mech, because odds are if you're dying to a single Dire Wolf, you are either playing the game wrong by being overconfident in your ability to 1v1 it without having high speed and firepower (Shadowhawk / Stormcrow) Or that Dire Wolf is not alone, considering that most smart people move to protect it until it gets into position. In which case, you'd get rolled anyways for taking it (And it's buddies) on alone.

You are misunderstanding several points here.

Direwolves don't sneak up on me. They don't need to. With the way the game is made right now (small maps, limited routes, deathmatch or exposed objectives) Direwolves can plop down in one place and punish the hell out of anything that pops up. Even the best players aren't psychic, and rounding the wrong corner shouldn't be punished with a mech obliterating 50-60 point alpha.

Also, I never said Direwolves were unbeatable. They are sluggish, and it is indeed possible to get behind one and torment it to death (oddly enough, the humble Commando is great at this). But again, the stakes are so incredibly high and tilted. A flanking attack needs to be done perfectly, hopefully without any teammates to support the Direwolf, and if he looks at you, you get removed from the game. It's an issue of effort - when one side is expected to give 120% and the other one just has to sort of BE there, it's a problem.

I'm already tired of debating these points, so I'll just agree to disagree. But I hope you remember this in a few weeks when Direwolves are all over the place and MWO devolves even further into the camp-fest whack-a-mole gameplay it was supposed to avoid.

Also, I never really called for nerfs because I don't think anything can actually be done about it.

There is nothing PGI can do at this point to make this mech balanced without utterly ruining it, or other mechs. If they nerf clan ballistics in an effort to trim it down, it will disproportionately hurt the Summoner, Stormcrow, and Madcat without really clipping what is awful about the Direwolf. If they add disadvantage quirks to the DW (even less mobility, critical weak points, whatever) they'll be hounded down by Clan pack purchasers. We are stuck with the DW and it's ridiculous deathray builds for the rest of the game. I just think people are ridiculous when they try to justify that a slow speed and bad tracking somehow makes up for all the advantages.

[Kmieciu]

Wrenchfarm, on 17 September 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

I love that people still think the Direwolf's lack of mobility compensates for it's utterly insane damage in a game where most maps are the size of a shoebox and there are even fewer viable/usable paths through a map.

Just wait until they're released for cbills and suddenly they're the only assault in the game. I fully intend to make people choke on their claims of balance.

Yeah, me too. Gonna buy that sweet sweet UAC5 module to boot. Seen people do 1600 damage in 5xUAC5+4xERML Dire Wolves.

Wrenchfarm, on 17 September 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

There is nothing PGI can do at this point to make this mech balanced without utterly ruining it, or other mechs.

I disagree. The biggest offenders are UAC5s right now. 1-3 of them are perfectly fine, in line with IS mechs (even though no IS assault can do 3xUAC5). 5 or 6 is when things get ridiculous.

You know why? They are the second most heat efficient pinpoint weapon in the game. 5 damage for 1 heat. And at potential 6 DPS they are the most deadly. They will core a stationary target faster than any other weapon. All you have to do is to make the enemy come at you in a straight line an he's dead.

The funny thing is, UAC20 are so affected by ghost heat, that you can get better DPS using UAC5, allong with twice the range and better accuracy (higher projectile speed). In fact UAC5 projectile is 200 meters faster than ERPPC!

Although I hate ghost heat, I feel it is the only available option to deter from UAC5 boating. Their heat penalty should be increased to deter constant fire.

Edited by Kmieciu, 17 September 2014 - 09:54 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Yup, pin point accuracy is a problem.

[Metus regem]

Kain Thul, on 17 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

You look...............familiar. Was that pure chance or did they ask you to get me out of there?

I had 100% "health" so congrats on 1-shotting a 100 ton mech without a headshot.

Well since I was chasing a squirrel around a rock and came around to see a Dire Wolf with the red triangle above it... not the snack I was looking for, but a free meal is a free meal...

[Fire and Salt]

How is pinpoint convergence a problem with dual gauss, when mech have twice the armor and structure they are supposed to?

A single gauss in TT is as deadly as 2 in this game.

A single gauss never spreads its damage in TT.

In this game, 2 gauss may or may not hit the same location, because when you lead, you are not converging on the target - you are converging on something behind it.


So actually, 2 gauss in this game is actually less significant than a single gauss in TT because 2 gauss might hit different locations.



Even worse, dual gauss can't headshot unless they score a double crit - quite rare.

A single gauss can headshot in TT.

[Zyllos]

YueFei, on 16 September 2014 - 11:52 PM, said:

Sometimes people are moving laterally and still get one-shot. It happens. Like I said, it depends on what's in the background from the shooter's POV when he's aiming at you.

I was once crossing the stream of Forest Colony in a Jenner, moving laterally relative to a DireWolf as he rounded the tall rock to the right of the sewage pipes. I burned my jump jets too soon, bunny hopping *before* he fired his shot. As I landed, he aimed down at me, using the ground for convergence. 2xPPC+2xGauss to the CT, dead Jenner. Very nice shot.

Kind've a hitbox problem on the Jenner though. Another time similar to that one, I absorbed a shot like that with the Jenner's arm when I twisted away. I managed to survive the rest of the match on just 3 medium lasers.

Carrioncrows really had the right idea when he proposed to make sensible hitboxes for the mechs. =/

The Jenner has a huge problem with this...

I started a thread about it in the suggestions forums but all I got was "don't run in straight lines" or "it doesn't matter, run XL engines".

[Mechteric]

The solution seems easy: allow only one gauss to be charged at a time.


But they should also ease up the gauss mechanic just a bit, like only have to charge for 0.5 seconds, and let it hold the charge for a few seconds.

[DasaDevil]

Wrenchfarm, on 17 September 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

You are misunderstanding several points here.

Direwolves don't sneak up on me. They don't need to. With the way the game is made right now (small maps, limited routes, deathmatch or exposed objectives) Direwolves can plop down in one place and punish the hell out of anything that pops up. Even the best players aren't psychic, and rounding the wrong corner shouldn't be punished with a mech obliterating 50-60 point alpha.

Also, I never said Direwolves were unbeatable. They are sluggish, and it is indeed possible to get behind one and torment it to death (oddly enough, the humble Commando is great at this). But again, the stakes are so incredibly high and tilted. A flanking attack needs to be done perfectly, hopefully without any teammates to support the Direwolf, and if he looks at you, you get removed from the game. It's an issue of effort - when one side is expected to give 120% and the other one just has to sort of BE there, it's a problem.

I'm already tired of debating these points, so I'll just agree to disagree. But I hope you remember this in a few weeks when Direwolves are all over the place and MWO devolves even further into the camp-fest whack-a-mole gameplay it was supposed to avoid.

Also, I never really called for nerfs because I don't think anything can actually be done about it.

There is nothing PGI can do at this point to make this mech balanced without utterly ruining it, or other mechs. If they nerf clan ballistics in an effort to trim it down, it will disproportionately hurt the Summoner, Stormcrow, and Madcat without really clipping what is awful about the Direwolf. If they add disadvantage quirks to the DW (even less mobility, critical weak points, whatever) they'll be hounded down by Clan pack purchasers. We are stuck with the DW and it's ridiculous deathray builds for the rest of the game. I just think people are ridiculous when they try to justify that a slow speed and bad tracking somehow makes up for all the advantages.

I think the biggest problem we have right now is the disparity in the game between solo queue players and group queue players.

I hardly ever drop into the solo queue, only when there is a challenge or when some event is going on requiring me to be in the solo queue. Perception changes things alot, and the way I see it, the Whale is really not a big issue to me in any respect, and in fact a liability in the serious games and when people start dropping in them, they'll see firsthand just how far that firepower will carry them.. Which isn't far at all if there is a skilled lance on the other side.

Not sure how to really address it otherwise, other than VOIP perhaps. It's hard to play in a team based game when nobody plays as a team.

Edited by DasaDevil, 17 September 2014 - 11:41 AM.

[Postumus]

CapperDeluxe, on 17 September 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

The solution seems easy: allow only one gauss to be charged at a time.


But they should also ease up the gauss mechanic just a bit, like only have to charge for 0.5 seconds, and let it hold the charge for a few seconds.

Not a horrible way to go. This would spread the damage out over a couple seconds, and require more coordination. It wouldn't really hurt anyone using gauss at long range, except to cut down on the extreme whack-a-mole effect, but it would definitely make brawling with the things harder. My main problem with the whole Daul gauss-and-pcc thing is that it is effective at all ranges, and in some ways even more effective at short range than traditional "brawling" weapons.

[zortesh]

Dual guass is easy mode doesn't matter if its on a jager or a direwolf, thou direwolf is super easy mode, all it requires is a minimal amount of aiming skill.

Sniping thou is generally the easyiest of the combat styles, except maybe lurming against really incompetent pilots.

[kapusta11]

I believe even if you force chainfire, even with doubled armor people will still whine like a little ****es be unhappy about 25(Heavy Gauss)/20/15/10 damage shots.

Edited by kapusta11, 21 September 2014 - 11:39 PM.