307 replies to this topic

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

And frankly were going to CONSTANTLY be changing the balance around this place over the next year. Thats PGIs plan. This stuff is getting tackled as soon as CW rolls out (which may be never I grant you)

So strap on a helmet bud, because the games about to break repeatedly over the next 6 months.



YES




I agree with it so much im double quoting.

I dont want to cherry pick a damned thing. I want to roll back your weapons nerfs.

you do relaize how poorly TT translates to realtime without RNG rolls right?
People would lose their mind.

[KraftySOT]

See all these problems are interconnected, and theyre all a result of straying from the TT

[Scratx]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

And the idea that anything short of smashing the servers with a hammer is going to break the game, is quite pedestrian.



Its not a nerf. Its a standardization with the correct rules that were laid out almost 30 years ago.

Also, along with this, should come the "DE nerfing" of all your clan weapons.

Theres no reason for it.

Your XLs should turn you into an ineffective pile of goo, but still be alive...you shouldnt have many customization options...but all of your weapons should be more powerful.

Not longer burn times...but actually honest to god more powerful than IS weapons. They make more heat, but you get 2 slot DHS to make up for it.

No IS mech can mount ferro, endo, and alot of weapons and heat sinks. With 3 slots per DHS, the most youll get is one or two with a nice weapons package. There simply arent enough criticals. The Ferro and Endo take up the vast majority of your free space. Throw in an XL and you have a whopping 6 slots to work with.

If you knuckleheads would have played the TT for 20 years like the rest of us...youd know that this stuff balances out PERFECTLY when you just follow the rules.

To be fair, the majority of clan mechs are tonnage limited, not crit-starved, because of oversized engines, hard-wired jumpjets and/or lack of Endo/Ferro. Moreover, most clan mechs also have their legs filled with either jumpjets, endo-steel or ferro-fibrous slots, so can't even fit more heatsinks there. Or ammo, to minimize ammo explosions. And we can't modify the base chassis at all so we can't correct any of these deficiencies.

Clan Omnis don't have a free meal. And Clan-tech isn't generally straight superior atm. Longer range lasers? Yes, and also higher damage, but longer burn time, lower fire rate and hotter. Autocannons? Well, burst fire... eww. LRMs? Half weight launchers but stream-fired... much more vulnerable to AMS and lowered fire rate, plus damage isn't front-loaded... I could go on, but basically SRMs are the only thing that's downright superior for clanners atm, alongside with gauss. ERPPC can be argued to be superior, too, until you remember the IS has regular PPCs as an option.

Finally... I'm going to use a meme to respond to your "TT is perfectly balanced yay" comment.

For balance, corerule ignore

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

you do relaize how poorly TT translates to realtime without RNG rolls right?
People would lose their mind.

Nope. It doesnt.

It would if it retained that system, be more like an MMO, where you target something and then hit hotkeys or fire your weapons at it, and its hits and misses were based on your gunnery stat, like those games do. Maybe people would play that, maybe not.

What the problem is, is that the translation doesnt take the TT seriously into account.

How on earth in the TT do you hit someone in the CT with 5 PPS fired in an alpha?

How do you even mount 8 ppcs on a stalker?

These things are ridiculous and a result of a BAD translation.

Most weapons fire in BTech, MISS!.

No one misses here. Its a pin point convergence. So all these ghost heats and doubling of the armor, etc, its all to correct the fact that no one ever bothered to figure out how to make you miss, and not hate the game for making you miss.

I mean World of Tanks can do it...why cant we?

[Destructicus]

Gierling, on 17 September 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Also as a point of clarification, I did not say that the mech should auto shutdown on torso loss. Just that it should get the reduced heat capacity instantly and shut down ONLY IF their current heat is higher the what the mech can handle in its reduced state.

What your proposing would lead to nothing but automatic shut downs in the middle of fights, It'd be extremely cheap for a DS to knock out one of the clans huge ST and have that mech shut down while he took cheap shots at a shut down mech.

[Archon]

No. This is a terrible idea. Clan's have no choice but to use XL's, it's optional for IS.

[KraftySOT]

Scratx, on 17 September 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

To be fair, the majority of clan mechs are tonnage limited, not crit-starved, because of oversized engines, hard-wired jumpjets and/or lack of Endo/Ferro. Moreover, most clan mechs also have their legs filled with either jumpjets, endo-steel or ferro-fibrous slots, so can't even fit more heatsinks there. Or ammo, to minimize ammo explosions. And we can't modify the base chassis at all so we can't correct any of these deficiencies.

Clan Omnis don't have a free meal. And Clan-tech isn't generally straight superior atm. Longer range lasers? Yes, and also higher damage, but longer burn time, lower fire rate and hotter. Autocannons? Well, burst fire... eww. LRMs? Half weight launchers but stream-fired... much more vulnerable to AMS and lowered fire rate, plus damage isn't front-loaded... I could go on, but basically SRMs are the only thing that's downright superior for clanners atm, alongside with gauss. ERPPC can be argued to be superior, too, until you remember the IS has regular PPCs as an option.

Finally... I'm going to use a meme to respond to your "TT is perfectly balanced yay" comment.

For balance, corerule ignore

And the list of things IS pilots face is just as long. Just because you face different problems, doesnt mean that the IS doesnt face their own set.

Balancing those sets is how you achieve balance. It doesnt have to be symmetrical. Look at Starcraft. Thats like the most popular game on the planet. Its asymmetrical.

And here we are, having these balance issues...why?

Because you corerule ignored.

[Gierling]

Destructicus, please don't misconstrue that its automatic.

Lets say they decide to go with a 30% heat penalty upon torso loss (plus a speed penalty).

So if you are running at 70% Heat your heat spikes to 100% and you shutdown. If you were running at 50% heat you get the extra 30% as the penalty and nothing happens. No shutdown.

So it’s a skill thing, where if you feel like your gonna lose the torso you start dialing back heat production so you won’t shutdown when it goes. Fail to do that and you shutdown.

Heck I'd go so far as to say the penalty could take effect gradually over 3 seconds or so. Still if that extra 30% puts you over, you should shut down.

Edited by Gierling, 17 September 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[KraftySOT]

And when you think of the insanity of taking what is a world reknowned balanced system, Battletech...thats taught at Full Sail in classrooms teaching game balance philosophy...and ignoring it "for balance" ?

What the ever loving ****?

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Nope. It doesnt.

It would if it retained that system, be more like an MMO, where you target something and then hit hotkeys or fire your weapons at it, and its hits and misses were based on your gunnery stat, like those games do. Maybe people would play that, maybe not.

What the problem is, is that the translation doesnt take the TT seriously into account.

How on earth in the TT do you hit someone in the CT with 5 PPS fired in an alpha?

How do you even mount 8 ppcs on a stalker?

These things are ridiculous and a result of a BAD translation.

Most weapons fire in BTech, MISS!.

No one misses here. Its a pin point convergence. So all these ghost heats and doubling of the armor, etc, its all to correct the fact that no one ever bothered to figure out how to make you miss, and not hate the game for making you miss.

I mean World of Tanks can do it...why cant we?

Ok
Lets say you got what you want
The game is strictly TT rules
You do realize almost all IS mechs would be reverted to Stock loudouts right?
Reverting to TT would hurt IS even more.
And looking at your profile it's obvious you haven't been around super long, but this discussion has been had before, and people have already explained why strictly adhering to TT is just a bad idea

Gierling, on 17 September 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Destructicus, please don't misconstrue that its automatic.

Lets say they decide to go with a 30% heat penalty upon torso loss (plus a speed penalty).

So if you are running at 70% Heat your heat spikes to 100% and you shutdown. If you were running at 50% heat you get the extra 30% as the penalty and nothing happens. No shutdown.

So it’s a skill thing, where if you feel like your gonna lose the torso you start dialing back heat production so you won’t shutdown when it goes. Fail to do that and you shutdown.

Heck I'd go so far as to say the penalty could take effect gradually over 3 seconds or so. Still if that extra 30% puts you over, you should shut down.

so in the middle of fights force clans to turn and run to save their torso so you can shoot them while they run?
See
Everything you propose leads to free shots for the IS
It's not a "skill thing"

[KraftySOT]

In essence, what youre saying is "For a super well selling great super hero movie, you should completely ignore the comic books".

Maybe you should check out those franchises and how well that worked out for them?

This is the SAME FREAKING THING.

How did superhero movies become good?

They stopped ignoring the comic books ever happened and stayed true to them. Bam. Instant success.

Ill take my million dollars now.

:facepalm:

[Verdic Mckenna]

I agree. As it stands I find it difficult to believe that anyone will still want to play Clan chassis' once the XL penalties get thrown in. I'm already regretting mine having heard about a LT and RT penalty without having the ability to dump the XL in favor of a Standard Engine.

DV McKenna, on 17 September 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

My point was, clan mechs already run hot (at least the ones outfitted right do) to lose an XL side torso and the heat sinks will push an already riding high heat bar into a chronic situation ( as it should)

There is no need to add more to that situation.

Edited by Verdic Mckenna, 17 September 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

And when you think of the insanity of taking what is a world reknowned balanced system, Battletech...thats taught at Full Sail in classrooms teaching game balance philosophy...and ignoring it "for balance" ?

What the ever loving ****?

the creators of BT will tell you that **** isn't balanced
They regret how they implemented clans.

Edited by Destructicus, 17 September 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[ski2060]

Game Balance with Clans in TT was not balanced. They were clearly superior in every single way.
Their technology was better, they pilots were better, their customization was better.
That is the reason they rolled over several hundred planets in the Inner Sphere over the course of a couple of years.

The original game designers of FASA, the makers of the Clan mechs, have gone so far as to say they made the Clans too powerful on the tabletop.

The only limiting factor was the Clans propensity for one on one fighting, and that even went out the window after repeated breaches of this code by IS units.

Look at Russ' own metrics. In the last 2 Clan v IS tests on public queues, the clans won 90% of the the first test set, and 73%
of the test matches from last night.

Is that not OP or what?
10v12 is NOT going to make it in, at least not anytime soon. In a 12v12 match up, Clan mechs HAVE to be balanced 1v1 somehow. Otherwise NO ONE will play IS mechs after getting rolled over and over in CW.

in TT, engine hits inflicted a +5 Point heat penalty for each critical slot, with 3 taking out the engine. Impose that heat penalty (1/6 heat scale per hit, and slowing 10% or so per hit) would balance out Clan mechs with their much greater survivability.

Yeah, you may take a torso loss, but you live still. And you can still affect the battlefield with the weaponry you still have. You generate less heat if have half your weapons gone.

No one is saying to have Clan Mechs shut down on torso loss. Only that there will be penalties for losing the torso.

Get used to it, Russ is working on it now.

[Metus regem]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

And when you think of the insanity of taking what is a world reknowned balanced system, Battletech...thats taught at Full Sail in classrooms teaching game balance philosophy...and ignoring it "for balance" ?

What the ever loving ****?

Like I said, some of these youngin's need a good whoppin'....

It took time for the IS to have mechs that could go toe to toe with the Clan units on a regular basis, mind you there were some execptions, like the Warhammer, Maruader and Shadow Hawk that punched above their weight class, but the general rule for the IS was use something bigger than what you are trying to kill.

Timber Wolf, send a Banshee, Kit Fox, send a Shadow Hawk... The had this great system called Battle Value (Or Battle Value 2), that helped you find a fair ballance.

[KraftySOT]

I mean you guys dont seem to get it. Mech2 was Tim Burtons batman. Its close...but its...just not it. Mech Mercs was the cool prime time cartoon that ran for a few weeks. Mech 3 was the one with Jim Carry...were currently playing the worst batman movie.

This isnt the one that goes back to the comics, the lore, the original story, and gives the fans what it wants, a pure iteration of the IP they love.

We havent gotten there yet.

Do you want 10 years for our Dark Knight? or do you want to help PGI turn this into the most successful iteration of the IP.

All you guys that keep saying ignore the core rules for balance are like the producers in Hollywood that wanted Arnold to be Mr Freeze.

[K0M3D14N]

Krafty, just give it up. A table-top game decided by dicerolls DOES NOT translate to a real-time action game. It doesn't. It does not. Mechwarrior titles have always been about pilot skill and having some heinous RNG system of "well the game decided I miss and he hits so I'm dead" would have ensured Mechwarrior Online never even had a snowball's chance in hell at working because that's not Mechwarrior. Tabletop? Sure. Mechwarrior? No.

As things stand right now, the Inner Sphere can DEFINITELY win fights against the Clans. The issue we're running into is similar to the issue that the IS ran into in the fluff- the majority of IS pilots are trying to fight the Clans the same way they'd fight other IS pilots and it does not work. The Clans win the long-range pokefest that MWO had been for a long time. The only way to really engage them is to use chokepoints to limit their firepower, get in tight, and use the fact that the IS has more upfront burst than the Clans do and run cooler.

[KraftySOT]

"Ignore the core rules, lets have Bruce Wayne act like a ****, ruin the jokers storyline, throw in comical characters, ignore Gordon, and cast the worst Robin in history....ITLL BE A BLOCK BUSTER!"

Just :facepalm:

[-Natural Selection-]

I have seen some guys buy timers and Dires after seeing others wreck with them. Then get in them and struggle with heat and other issues performing half as well.

So far EVERY clan that has been released for cbills has been complained about. I foresee the same for the others, just not so much with the Timber. But I can tell the guys who cant make the Timber work due to the heat, they have them loaded up with LRMs..


Ohh and I have 24hs on my timber with only 2 ppcs and 3 srms. I fire the ppcs 3 times I am at 90+heat. If I loose ANY hs I am cooking! So sure go ahead and make them hotter, you will be just screaming due to every one you run into having to run gauss just to manage..

Edited by Mickey Knoxx, 17 September 2014 - 10:47 AM.

[KraftySOT]

K0M3D14N, on 17 September 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Krafty, just give it up. A table-top game decided by dicerolls DOES NOT translate to a real-time action game. It doesn't. It does not. Mechwarrior titles have always been about pilot skill and having some heinous RNG system of "well the game decided I miss and he hits so I'm dead" would have ensured Mechwarrior Online never even had a snowball's chance in hell at working because that's not Mechwarrior. Tabletop? Sure. Mechwarrior? No.

As things stand right now, the Inner Sphere can DEFINITELY win fights against the Clans. The issue we're running into is similar to the issue that the IS ran into in the fluff- the majority of IS pilots are trying to fight the Clans the same way they'd fight other IS pilots and it does not work. The Clans win the long-range pokefest that MWO had been for a long time. The only way to really engage them is to use chokepoints to limit their firepower, get in tight, and use the fact that the IS has more upfront burst than the Clans do and run cooler.

Yes it does.

Not that either of us would know since no one has ever tried it. But this is the same argument that the producers for Tim Burtons batman made. Or the crappy 70s spiderman.

Comics dont translate to the big screen.

All you have to do is have a "time on target" indicator like world of tanks and most of this games problems are solved.

Translating the TT to a video game is ridiculously easy if youre willing to take a chance and be the first person to add something to the IP.