69 replies to this topic

[M0rpHeu5]

I vote for yes couse it only hurtrs the weaker/less used/lighter mechs. TT should be used like a tool for balance not make it our boss.

Edited by M0rpHeu5, 18 September 2014 - 06:20 AM.

[WonderSparks]

So you would rather the fusion engine's heat just build itself up over time? Those ten heat sinks are there for a reason, and you do not want to go without them, trust me.

[M0rpHeu5]

WonderSparks, on 17 September 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

So you would rather the fusion engine's heat just build itself up over time? Those ten heat sinks are there for a reason, and you do not want to go without them, trust me.

M0rpHeu5, on 17 September 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

TT should be used like a tool for balance not make it our boss.

[WonderSparks]

Science is science, freebirth. Just let it be and live with what we have.

[M0rpHeu5]

I can live with what we have, it doesn't really affect me since I have to deal with this problem very rarely, I only want weaker mech to be more useful.

[Durant Carlyle]

The lighter 'Mechs shouldn't be allowed to break a rule simply because we want more weapons on 'Mechs that aren't supposed to be weapon-heavy. And yes, I said 'we' - I want more weapons on the smaller lights too. But according to the rules, they must have the same minimum heat sinks as every other BattleMech.

[Savage Wolf]

If lore is the only reason that this restriction exists then it should be removed. Especially because it would help the lightest of mechs which currently could need a boost.

Durant Carlyle, on 17 September 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

The lighter 'Mechs shouldn't be allowed to break a rule simply because we want more weapons on 'Mechs that aren't supposed to be weapon-heavy. And yes, I said 'we' - I want more weapons on the smaller lights too. But according to the rules, they must have the same minimum heat sinks as every other BattleMech.

And what is proposed is to change the rules. It would really help especially light mechs that use almost no energy weapons, like ballistics Locusts and Spiders. The heatsinks are just a waste of space.

[Leopardao]

Your lighter mech WON'T be more useful

PGI balanced the smaller engines (less then 250) by subtracting the weight of the missing heat sinks from the cost of the engines. Normally those engines weighed more but had a number of weightless free heat sinks that must be allocated on the mech.

[Durant Carlyle]

Savage Wolf, on 17 September 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

If lore is the only reason that this restriction exists then it should be removed. Especially because it would help the lightest of mechs which currently could need a boost.

With that thinking, every 'Mech in the game should be able to equip a 400XL engine to go faster.

Because, you know, weight is only a restriction in the rules of BattleTech and it should be removed.

Not to mention that the vast majority of 'Mechs need more heat dissipation, not less. Less than ten heat sinks won't actually help the vast majority of these.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 17 September 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Durant Carlyle, on 17 September 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

With that thinking, every 'Mech in the game should be able to equip a 400XL engine to go faster.

Because, you know, weight is only a restriction in the rules of BattleTech and it should be removed.

Not to mention that the vast majority of 'Mechs need more heat dissipation, not less. Less than ten heat sinks won't actually help the vast majority of these.

No, because there are balancing reasons not to allow all mechs to use an 400XL engine. I said if lore was the only reason not to allow it, then it wasn't an excuse. And it could even help balance by making some underpowered mechs more useful.

[Garandos]

Savage Wolf, on 17 September 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

If lore is the only reason that this restriction exists then it should be removed.

Do away with IS/Clan weapon differences! Lore is the ONLY reason it exists!
And throw away the idea of using Mechs, we use Horses now! Because, the ONLY reason we are using Mechs is LORE!

Ahand WHAT THE **** with those restrictions on JJs and ECM only on SOME mechs? AWAY with thee mean menace! You are ONLY here because of LORE!


Lets just scrap it ALL, and do Call of Duty instead!

[Savage Wolf]

Garandos, on 17 September 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

Do away with IS/Clan weapon differences! Lore is the ONLY reason it exists!

No, the differences exist because it's nice that they have different playstyles and feel. So there is a reason other than lore.

Garandos, on 17 September 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

And throw away the idea of using Mechs, we use Horses now! Because, the ONLY reason we are using Mechs is LORE!

You don't like mechs? I do. So I'd call that a reason.

Garandos, on 17 September 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

Ahand WHAT THE **** with those restrictions on JJs and ECM only on SOME mechs? AWAY with thee mean menace! You are ONLY here because of LORE!

There could be some merit to this, but it needs to be balanced. But then again, there is no balance to it now.

[Leopardao]

... Savage Wolf, I think that was Sarcasm

[Egomane]

There are more then balancing reasons to say no to this suggestion.

The weight of the heatsinks you need to install is deducted from the engine weight already. If you remove the 10 heatsink rule, those engines would need to get heavier again. So either way, you wouldn't get more tonnage.

What you are currently suggesting is not a boost for light mechs, but a legal cheat of the construction rules, that would be only possible because of PGIs way of calculating engine weight.

I'll give you an example:
Original rules
A tabletop 160 standard reactor weighs 6 tons. It comes with ten heatsinks of which 6 are mounted inside the engine and four are external, as the reactor is to small to accomodate them all.
Additionally you have a 3 ton cockpit and a 2 ton Gyro to accomodate.
Total weight of those components = 11 tons (6 tons engine + 3 tons cockpit + 2 tons gyro + 0 tons heatsinks
Total number of critical slots used = 15 (6 engine + 1 cockpit + 4 gyro + 4 heatsinks)

Mechwarrior Online rules
A MWO 160 standard reactor weighs 7 tons. It already includes the weight of the cockpit and the gyro, but the weight of the four heatsinks (4 tons) that need to be mounted are subtracted.
Total weight of those components = 11 tons (7 tons engine + 0 tons cockpit + 0 tons gyro + 4 tons heatsinks)
Total number of critical slots used = 15 (6 engine + 1 cockpit + 4 gyro + 4 heatsinks)

The result is the same, only the calculation is different. This difference allows you to make such a suggestion, but it is actually breaking the rules. Do you really want to suggest a cheat to help the light mechs (and I don't believe they need that help)?

Edited by Egomane, 17 September 2014 - 11:50 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Leopardao, on 17 September 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

... Savage Wolf, I think that was Sarcasm

I know it was. But it was also an opinion and I could still use the quotes to further explain my point.

Egomane, on 17 September 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

The weight of the heatsinks you need to install is deducted from the engine weight already. If you remove the 10 heatsink rule, those engines would need to get heavier again. So either way, you wouldn't get more tonnage.

I wasn't however aware that the weight of the heatsinks had been removed from the engines. But wouldn't that mean that had to add heatsinks to some mechs to make the stock builds valid? Not that I really would have a problem with that, but mostly they seem to stick to the original builds.

And also, even if that is the case, I still think that it would make sense to remove the restriction simply because all it effects are underpowered mechs that could do with some extra tonnage.

Egomane, on 17 September 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

What you are currently suggesting is not a boost for light mechs, but a legal cheat of the construction rules, that would be only possible because of PGIs way of calculating engine weight.

A legal cheat is not a cheat. It's a rule change. And MWO has already made plenty of those. You even mentioned them with regards to the engines and internal heatsinks. Why not also change this is it helps balance. That's what rules are meant to provide anyway.

Edited by Savage Wolf, 17 September 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[Egomane]

Savage Wolf, on 17 September 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

I wasn't however aware that the weight of the heatsinks had been removed from the engines. But wouldn't that mean that had to add heatsinks to some mechs to make the stock builds valid? Not that I really would have a problem with that, but mostly they seem to stick to the original builds.

All original builds have at least 10 heatsinks. This is the same in MWO. Except for some light modifications for borderline cases, the standard loadouts of the MWO mechs are the same as the ones on the tabletop record sheets.

Savage Wolf, on 17 September 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

A legal cheat is not a cheat. It's a rule change.

No, it's still a cheat! It is still circumventing a rule. It is just no longer punishable.

Edited by Egomane, 17 September 2014 - 11:57 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Egomane, on 17 September 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

All original builds have at least 10 heatsinks. This is the same in MWO. Except for some light modifications for borderline cases, the standard loadouts of the MWO mechs are the same as the ones on the tabletop record sheets.

So they already changed the rules (or made allowed legal cheats or whatever) and they probably did so for balancing reasons. Why not make one more small change?

[Bront]

Savage Wolf, on 17 September 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

I wasn't however aware that the weight of the heatsinks had been removed from the engines. But wouldn't that mean that had to add heatsinks to some mechs to make the stock builds valid? Not that I really would have a problem with that, but mostly they seem to stick to the original builds.

No, the Heat SInks were already there.

In TT, you have to distribute the HS in the mech, but they weigh nothing because they came with the engine. In MWO, they have weight, but don't come with the engine weight.

This is why the XL100 and any engines under 100 would have a negitive weight rating, which is why we don't have them, which is why we don't have the Urban Mech.

[Savage Wolf]

Egomane, on 17 September 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

No, it's still a cheat! It is still circumventing a rule. It is just no longer punishable.

Cheat against what? If the rules say that it is allowed, then you aren't cheating! And you can't circumvent a rule if it's not there anymore. It would simply be a slightly different set of rules.

And all other active rulesets out there are constantly revising themselves because they find ways to make them better. Like removing rules that have no real function. Less rules are simpler rules.

Bront, on 17 September 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

No, the Heat SInks were already there.

In TT, you have to distribute the HS in the mech, but they weigh nothing because they came with the engine. In MWO, they have weight, but don't come with the engine weight.

But then they use crit slots that wasn't used before, right? And so the builds are different. Functionally exactly the same, but still build differently.

[Egomane]

Savage Wolf, on 17 September 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

But then they use crit slots that wasn't used before, right? And so the builds are different. Functionally exactly the same, but still build differently.

No, they used the crit slots before as well. Please see my example calculation above.

The borderline cases I mentioned, where something on the loadout was changed, are for example rear firing weapons and such. We have no firing behind yourself without turning in MWO. The weapons are still there in MWo, they just switched directions.