136 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 18 September 2014 - 02:15 AM, said:

That's sort of the point. It's a shame that they can't assign actual criticals to things like engines or gyros. We know they have the ability to put knockdown into the game....if only they could give Gyros actual criticals and make you fall when you take a hit or lose a leg.

Actually it is the Beta team's fault! We had threads claiming legging ruined MW# PvP. So PGI listened and gave us Legs that cannot be blown off. I don't blame PGI for that. It was the taste of Player whine that caused it.

[Robert blackseven Sohn]

Clan XLs needs penalties for losing ST. "Some heat" isn't really enough. The movement hit has to be significant enough to be felt. More than 10%.

The Clan XL defenders point out that you lose about half your loadout when you lose an side torso, which they claim is a disadvantage. Uhh, IS mechs lose exactly the same amount of their loadout when they lose a side torso, IF their were running a standard. Meanwhile the Clanner has been taking advantage of the MASSIVE weight saving of the XL engine to load up most weapons/ammo/heat sinks and dish out way more firepower before losing the ST. A pristine IS mech using a standard engine doesn't usually have double the fire power of a equal weight Clan mech with a torso blown out.

It was only mentioned a few times, but pretending like the "zombie" abilities of a few IS mechs somehow balances them against the MASSIVE advantage of the Clan XL is similarly laughable. Yes, being able to zombie is an advantage, but it's such a corner case - you have to have taken fire mostly to both STs and not that much on your CT, AND you have to have CT/Head weapons, which only about half the mechs do. And if you talk "Comp" or "meta" level chassis, I'm not sure that any have CT/Head weapons.

Edited by Robert blackseven Sohn, 18 September 2014 - 06:03 AM.

[Verdic Mckenna]

And whether you like it or not - it was the right decision. As it stands even you are aware that it's still a common practice to leg a Light Mech or a mech that has high mobility to destroy it. All it did was give the mech the slight ability to be mobile without causing the mech to go prone. I can claim to be one of those Beta guys.

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

Actually it is the Beta team's fault! We had threads claiming legging ruined MW# PvP. So PGI listened and gave us Legs that cannot be blown off. I don't blame PGI for that. It was the taste of Player whine that caused it.

[Hoax415]

Its sad that PGI seems so adverse to using movement penalties to balance things.

Movement penalty to clan mechs for engine damage would be a very meaningful thing and a good idea maybe if we had put in engine penalties at the start before all the other weapon system nerfs.

Movement penalties for heat combined with heat penalties for moving max speed are some of the bigger things missing from MWO.

Engine and Gyro crits for everyone if it was possible.

This thread is just another pathetic cry to not take the pay2win from a bad player.

Edited by Hoax415, 18 September 2014 - 06:31 AM.

[Verdic Mckenna]

I don't believe anyone has the right to assume anyone is of less skill than they are unless they drop against them and can judge for themselves. In undue course you are coming off just as brash as the OP. Is that how you want to be viewed?

Hoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

Its sad that PGI seems so adverse to using movement penalties to balance things.

Movement penalty to clan mechs for engine damage would be a very meaningful thing and a good idea maybe if we had put in engine penalties at the start before all the other weapon system nerfs.

Movement penalties for heat combined with heat penalties for moving max speed are some of the bigger things missing from MWO.

Engine and Gyro crits for everyone if it was possible.

This thread is just another pathetic cry to not take the pay2win from a bad player.

[RacerX]

The basic premise of this threads argument is ridiculous. Making a blanket statement that IS pilots suck and only Clan pilots are skilled is a ridiculous premise. I am a long time IS player with thousands of matches under my belt. I do not currently play Clans. My K/D and W/L numbers looked pretty good until the Clan Invasion happened. I found that I simply couldn't match firepower for firepower and was having a really difficult time with survivability. Does this mean I suddenly suck because I have no idea how to pilot a mech, build a proper combat machine, or understand the value of teamwork in this game? No. Could it be that the better players of the community are migrating to Clan tech because it gives them an advantage over their IS counterparts? Maybe. I do know that dropping in a group with proper organization drastically increases survivability for everyone. However, when an IS unit focus fires on a clan mech it is pointless to shoot at a side torso or try to whittle away weapons and armor. If you don't hit the CT then don't bother shooting because taking out a side torso still leaves the clan mech with 50% of it's firepower. That 50% fire power equals most IS mechs full compliment of weapons. That has 0% to do with measuring the skill of either an IS or Clan pilot. So let's try to keep things in perspective here. The Clans are different and have some distinct advantages. The Inner Sphere, in the fiction, also has some distinct advantages that cannot be duplicated in this game. So let's look at what can be brought to the table that can equal out the battlefield for both factions. Simply stating that balance shouldn't happen because IS Pilots intrinsically suck is a stupid argument.

Edited by RacerX, 18 September 2014 - 06:42 AM.

[Bilbo]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

Actually it is the Beta team's fault! We had threads claiming legging ruined MW# PvP. So PGI listened and gave us Legs that cannot be blown off. I don't blame PGI for that. It was the taste of Player whine that caused it.

At no point did legging a mech cause anything but slower movement in MWO. Can't blame Beta players for having a feature removed that never existed. Knockdowns are a different thing entirely.

[Roadbuster]

mongo2006, on 17 September 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

The fact IS every noob that comes to this game is a (Clan) pilot, they don't know the maps, they can't properly build a mech, they don't have or use the wrong modules, they don't know where the kill zones are for each map, they won't do the one thing that gives the (IS) the clear advantage ZERG! If they would just have the heart and coordination to work together, the clans wouldn't have a chance. But that's something you learn over time.

Fixed that for you.

Honestly, there is no difference between IS and Clan pilots. You can be new to the game and pilot IS and Clan trial mechs, and after you get full cadet bonus you can buy either IS or Clan mechs too.
I've seen Clan pilots miss an assault mech with SRM at 150m, or missing an alpha strike on a shutdown mech, oh, and many players don't see enemy mechs if they don't have a red triangle over their head.

These are just examples, but the point is, you can't claim that:
1. every new player is a noob
2. every new player plays IS mechs
3. every IS mech player is a noob

[Lily from animove]

Russ Bullock, on 17 September 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

You guys have already been told the plan - I am still hoping to not touch their weapons again.

- IS Quirks

and at the least fix what I consider a bug when a clan mech has there Side Torso destroyed yet they keep 100% of their Engine heat sinks. At the least we need to fix that with their ST destruction.

These items and I hope were there

In short Clan players - smile life is good

But I hope you know russ, that the more hotter laser lights relying clanmechs and the Nova will suffer most from this change. And the big boys like SC which can wield well damage ballistic builds will not care that much about losing heat dissipation.
This will similar to the CERML heat change penalise the wrong mechs a lot more again.

Russ Bullock, on 17 September 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Yes Clanners I think we can at least agree on that being a bug and needing fixed...then I think I can get the rest of the way with the IS changes.

Clans are still very different with their technology and more powerful in many settings BUT we hopefully have a very competitive CW

Remember:

IS Mech runs XL and loses a ST they die

Clan Mech loses ST they Live and are still fairly deadly.

Fixing it so they actually lose some Engine heat sinks at the least seems very reasonable

And no its not entirely better as a clanner because you can survive a ST loss. An IS mech still has the option to go for a standard Engine able to lose BOTH Torsi. Clanmechs don't even have this option. So this argumentation is not clearly true sicne clanners will always die without Side Torsi while IS mechs don't need to have to die.

RacerX, on 18 September 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

The basic premise of this threads argument is ridiculous. Making a blanket statement that IS pilots suck and only Clan pilots are skilled is a ridiculous premise. I am a long time IS player with thousands of matches under my belt. I do not currently play Clans. My K/D and W/L numbers looked pretty good until the Clan Invasion happened. I found that I simply couldn't match firepower for firepower and was having a really difficult time with survivability. Does this mean I suddenly suck because I have no idea how to pilot a mech, build a proper combat machine, or understand the value of teamwork in this game? No. Could it be that the better players of the community are migrating to Clan tech because it gives them an advantage over their IS counterparts? Maybe. I do know that dropping in a group with proper organization drastically increases survivability for everyone. However, when an IS unit focus fires on a clan mech it is pointless to shoot at a side torso or try to whittle away weapons and armor. If you don't hit the CT then don't bother shooting because taking out a side torso still leaves the clan mech with 50% of it's firepower. That 50% fire power equals most IS mechs full compliment of weapons. That has 0% to do with measuring the skill of either an IS or Clan pilot. So let's try to keep things in perspective here. The Clans are different and have some distinct advantages. The Inner Sphere, in the fiction, also has some distinct advantages that cannot be duplicated in this game. So let's look at what can be brought to the table that can equal out the battlefield for both factions. Simply stating that balance shouldn't happen because IS Pilots intrinsically suck is a stupid argument.

Kinda partially true. But what is correct: the noob quota amongst IS mechs is higher, because atm, when a new player starts the game he has a wide choice of Trial mechs. And from this choice only 2 mechs are clanmechs. Also even if the newbies gather enough money they will not be bale to buy a clan heavy or clan assault, so those newbies will be IS atm. And so PUG testgames between clans and IS will not correctly judge mech balance because IS side is filled with more f2p newbies not knowing enough about the game. such purley PUG evoked statistics would make sense when trials are equally spread between IS and Clanners.

and when I pilot my atlas, I rarely feel clanners OP. Nice big CT's eating all my cool running damage while I can easily twist. And those clanlights? nice juicy targets compared to thos pesky little IS lights. And clan mechs are often so big compared to IS mechs, you can hit them so easily before they are around a corner or over a hill it feels like a beginners shooting range. Bu trying to hit some IS mechs into vital parts can be a pain.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 September 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[PappySmurf]

LIli said ( IS mech still has the option to go for a standard Engine able to lose BOTH Torsi.)

I have said before leave clan mechs alone and just buff up the Inner Sphere mechs to be competitive.I can count hundreds of times I start in a battle in my IS mech only to get hit by enemy fire a few times and lose all my weapons im thinking WOW this is a joke right? And I run full armor and a std engine on all my mechs.

So Clan mechs don't do this I have testsed a trial one and there hit-boxes and armor really work I got hit like 10 times in the kitfox and I still has a laser left which was the was IS mech should be also.PGI needs to fix the IS mechs the same way as Clan mechs maybe not so tough but close enough to make them viable and not lose whole weapon systems in 1 torso hit.

Edited by PappySmurf, 18 September 2014 - 07:37 AM.

[Dracol]

DasaDevil, on 17 September 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

You do realize that the Clan mechs cannot change their engine, right?

And you do realize an IS mech can't get an XL that doesn't get them killed if a side torso is blown off, right?

oh, and one other point. A standard clan engine wouldn't help you except very little in a handful of cases. A standard engine IS with both torsos blown off is a walking stick. Maybe with 2 med lasers at the most.... zombie cent.

Edited by Dracol, 18 September 2014 - 07:45 AM.

[mongo2006]

I Read each and every post, I didn't think that I would have to say it, but there are some great (IS) pilots, I didn't start out as a Clan pilot, I made the mistakes that we all did when I was new. That's how I know that the skill level in Clan vs (IS) fights in many cases have nothing to do with the mechs. But yet they're being nerfed as if balance was the only issue.

The fact still remains that 95% of new pilots will buy (IS) mechs and learn to play with that mech, putting them in the solo ques right along with other (IS) pilots that have played for years and we eat them for dinner. If the skill levels where equal, with the current nerfs the clan pilots have endured and even more coming, we wouldn't have a chance, It would be like fighting the Lords all damn day.. that crap would get old real quick.

[Thorqemada]

Sorry Dear OP, dear Russ, Engine Heatsinks wont fix the Surviveability Advantage, the Payload Advantage, the Crit-Space Advantage, the Speed Advantage (except Lights atm), the Range Advantage, oh, it wont fix the Skill-Advantage also.

I wonder whom you think will be left to fight against - happy Clanner now?

PS: Real Clanners fight 1 on 1 which means after all the time i still have to meet a real Clanner yet...

Edited by Thorqemada, 18 September 2014 - 07:26 PM.

[kf envy]

you must mean zellbrigen. but not all clans fallow it to the letter so to speak and after fighting IS some even just did not fallow zellbrigen after considering many of the IS to be dishonorable in how they fight


id love to link the wiki for zellbrigen but for an unknown reason im unable to ctrl-V or paste it on to hear


but another thing that I keep thinking about is with them nerfing the clan tec what our they going to do when some of the better IS tec that is the same or better then clan tec is added? or they going to nerf it too?

and skill is a big part of this game I have had to many of times ware my hbk-4sp is out gun an armored by an assault an I have gone toe to toe because my team rain away but I end up walking away as an zombie and there destroyed all because I was an better pilot then they were.

[Joanna Conners]

Thorqemada, on 18 September 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

Sorry Dear OP, dear Russ, Engine Heatsinks wont fix the Surviveability Advantage, the Payload Advantage, the Crit-Space Advantage, the Speed Advantage (except Lights atm), the Range Advantage, oh, it wont fix the Skill-Advantage also.

I wonder whom you think will be left to fight against - happy Clanner now?

PS: Real Clanners fight 1 on 1 which means after all the time i still have to meet a real Clanner yet...

Down the road the IS will get omni-mechs. Do you want them nerfed into the ground too? Or would you want everything buffed at that point? We play for the love of this franchise and if we take away what the Clans or Inner Sphere are, why even play?

[Hoax415]

You guys can't have it both ways.

It can't be impossible to have 10v12 or to force clan teams to be formed using 3/4/4/1 instead of 3/3/3/3 or with less overall tonnage AND its not fair to nerf the poor clans so its actually balanced.

Asymmetric gameplay was thrown out. So now we need to balance IS and Clan tonnage 1:1. Yes that includes the SCR, TBR and DWF. No they aren't balanced yet and not even giving them a speed reduction and heat penalties when a side torso is blown off is likely to get us all the way there.

Brace yourselves because more nerfs will come. I said over and over during the 10v12 debates that nobody was going to like it if Clan get nerfed to the power level of IS mechs and it does make it questionable why we even bothered with clan mechs in the game.

But that is the position we are in now. We need balance right now 1:1 thanks to the 12v12, 3/3/3/3 system we apparently plan to use for CW.

I don't know what that means for future weapon system tech like light gauss or x-pulse.

I don't know what that means for IS-Omni mechs or even more questionable for Second Line Clan mechs, which would probably be stronger than omnis if they get to be fully IS-style customiziable with Clan tech.

Those are real problems but they are down the line problems and we need to balance for CW faction combat:

12 IS mechs vs 12 Clan mechs.

Right now.

Edited by Hoax415, 18 September 2014 - 09:40 PM.

[Aym]

mongo2006, on 17 September 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Look Russ, I've been saying for a while you can't nerf SKILL! To nerf clan mechs any further would be totally unfair to the pilots that have been playing for years. We have learned how to build and use our mechs properly, and thats why we win.

We've even adapted to your nerfs resulting in us becoming even better pilots, I bet in the data you'll find our hit rate went up as well, we are more careful with our aim. and conserving heat.

The fact IS every noob that comes to this game is a (IS) pilot, they don't know the maps, they can't properly build a mech, they don't have or use the wrong modules, they don't know where the kill zones are for each map, they won't do the one thing that gives the (IS) the clear advantage ZERG! If they would just have the heart and coordination to work together, the clans wouldn't have a chance. But that's something you learn over time.

But you would rather punish clan pilots so that people who are new to the game have an artificial advantage that negates our skill level? Trust me dude that 20% drop in win rate was 15% noobs with clan mechs and 5% Clan vets throwing the fight to avoid the NERF HAMMER. Skill and Coordination can't be nerfed Russ, we are at a tipping point where experienced pilots are going to abandon clan mechs and start piloting our (IS) mechs, or the more experienced pilots are going to leave the game. We have our noobs too that shut down every 2 shots, Dire Wolfs with 40 damage and dead, Timber Wolves with nothing but missiles and 2 medium lasers because they can't manage the heat of 3 lasers, disgusting..


TYPICAL (CLAN VS IS MATCH)


Chat: we moving right, ignore whats behind, we have missiles for that.

Chat: you got it..

Chat: Sounds good

Chat: copy

the whole group moves to the right and creates a firing line.. we wait for stragglers then we move side by side, not behind each other..

UAV goes up, the noobs have no idea what it is, I take out the DDC with missiles over any other mech, he was dumb enough to be on the front line. Clan firing line focuses anything that pops it's head up, we all have lasers so we win the firing line war 90% of the time, but they try 1/2 dead for their efforts.. We're pushing while we fire.. they start running, lights and mediums shoot them in the back, they leave their assaults to fend for them selves..they have crappy builds so I just shoot atlases in the left eye they drop like rocks, the rest we just arti to death (IS) noobs are too cheap for arties and air strikes. Missiles are on anything with missiles, AMS or ECM driven away from the rest of them they are now completely exposed. they have nothing left to stop the missiles or firing line, but can't fight because the firing line is moving on them, missiles are dropping on them, the firing line has them locked.. they run and die. All the rest are dead, we're just looking for a shut down Raven.. Boom we win...

Chat (IS): clan mechs are OP

Chat (IS): clan pilots are missile noobs that's why they won.. no honor..

Chat: STFU and learn to fight


If they had just turned and went after the Clan firing line they would find that 50% of clan mechs would be shut down because of heat at any given time, they don't know or don't have the leadership and heart to mix it up, to do what their mechs are designed to do. that's why they lose. The Lords are one of the few groups I've seen fight clan mechs the way they should be fought, and they win 80% of the time.


I don't think it's fair that Clan pilots have to pay for (IS) lack of piloting skill or tactics, leave the mechs alone and teach the (IS) how to properly fight them.

In other words, we want new players to be our fodder, we bought expensive mechs with our more monies so we should win moar.
Somehow we expect "skill" to allow "IS" to "zerg" us if they only knew how, but since they don't, they suck and we deserve out 90% win-rate.

[Kmieciu]

Yeshua Kerensky, on 17 September 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

So SWJ and Lords are going to play IS because it is balanced right?.....LOL

If some IS mech becomes better than TW/DW, you can be sure they will use it. The same reason they don't use clan lights.


PS. Let the Clanners use IS standard engines. And allow me to install a clan XL in my Gaussphract :-)
See what happens.

Edited by Kmieciu, 18 September 2014 - 10:30 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Lily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

And no its not entirely better as a clanner because you can survive a ST loss. An IS mech still has the option to go for a standard Engine able to lose BOTH Torsi. Clanmechs don't even have this option. So this argumentation is not clearly true sicne clanners will always die without Side Torsi while IS mechs don't need to have to die.

So what? IS in either XL or STD are inferior to clan mechs pretty much across the board. cept the lights are ****.

[Lily from animove]

Ghogiel, on 18 September 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

So what? IS in either XL or STD are inferior to clan mechs pretty much across the board. cept the lights are ****.

Lol, totally not. I can run my XL phract very well, and I can decide what section my opponent hits, becasue it has way better hitboxes and I can efficiently hide specific sections from the line of fire. Furthermore most people do not put a XL into a phract and so most opponents don't specifically aim at your Sidetorsi.
I can phract at zombie mod having 1laser and 1 missile pod left, or 2 missile pods.

Its not poop or inferior, its the way you play them. But when you deisgn a mech and stick with the wrong playstyle it will of course fail. Poeple say lrms in atlas or catapharacts are bad, And I palye dnoth and it works well too. It is just something you need to adapt and take into account with your placement. And when 2 King crab arrives with DDC spammign AC 20's to the clanners because those pilots know how to use their mechs, then those Clanners are torn apart in no time.

The biggets issue of IS pilots who are freebies is that they never played clanners. When you paly clanmechs, you experience whats troubling you and what things do not work. And whne you go back to your IS chassis you know what tricks youc an use to give the clanners a hard time. Therra therma and caustic are absolutely in favor for the IS, low slung arms and DW Sidetorsi mounted AC's are a big disavantage in this terrain. If you position you downhill vs a DW his superlow pitch angle makes all of his Sidetorsi weapons useless.

Actually, PGI should be clever and add trials for all clan chassis now. because then IS pilots can experience these clanners. AND it would also possibly increase a la carte sales for their wave 1 package.