136 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

mongo2006, on 17 September 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Look Russ, I've been saying for a while you can't nerf SKILL! To nerf clan mechs any further would be totally unfair to the pilots that have been playing for years. We have learned how to build and use our mechs properly, and thats why we win.

why do I never see this argument made by the players WITH skill?

Audivo, JagerXII etc are the very ones arguing Clans ARE OP.

Funny that.

Perhaps someone overestimates his 1337 creds?

[Argann]

mongo2006, on 17 September 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Look Russ, I've been saying for a while you can't nerf SKILL! To nerf clan mechs any further would be totally unfair to the pilots that have been playing for years. We have learned how to build and use our mechs properly, and thats why we win.

We've even adapted to your nerfs resulting in us becoming even better pilots, I bet in the data you'll find our hit rate went up as well, we are more careful with our aim. and conserving heat.

The fact IS every noob that comes to this game is a (IS) pilot, they don't know the maps, they can't properly build a mech, they don't have or use the wrong modules, they don't know where the kill zones are for each map, they won't do the one thing that gives the (IS) the clear advantage ZERG! If they would just have the heart and coordination to work together, the clans wouldn't have a chance. But that's something you learn over time.

But you would rather punish clan pilots so that people who are new to the game have an artificial advantage that negates our skill level? Trust me dude that 20% drop in win rate was 15% noobs with clan mechs and 5% Clan vets throwing the fight to avoid the NERF HAMMER. Skill and Coordination can't be nerfed Russ, we are at a tipping point where experienced pilots are going to abandon clan mechs and start piloting our (IS) mechs, or the more experienced pilots are going to leave the game. We have our noobs too that shut down every 2 shots, Dire Wolfs with 40 damage and dead, Timber Wolves with nothing but missiles and 2 medium lasers because they can't manage the heat of 3 lasers, disgusting..


TYPICAL (CLAN VS IS MATCH)


Chat: we moving right, ignore whats behind, we have missiles for that.

Chat: you got it..

Chat: Sounds good

Chat: copy

the whole group moves to the right and creates a firing line.. we wait for stragglers then we move side by side, not behind each other..

UAV goes up, the noobs have no idea what it is, I take out the DDC with missiles over any other mech, he was dumb enough to be on the front line. Clan firing line focuses anything that pops it's head up, we all have lasers so we win the firing line war 90% of the time, but they try 1/2 dead for their efforts.. We're pushing while we fire.. they start running, lights and mediums shoot them in the back, they leave their assaults to fend for them selves..they have crappy builds so I just shoot atlases in the left eye they drop like rocks, the rest we just arti to death (IS) noobs are too cheap for arties and air strikes. Missiles are on anything with missiles, AMS or ECM driven away from the rest of them they are now completely exposed. they have nothing left to stop the missiles or firing line, but can't fight because the firing line is moving on them, missiles are dropping on them, the firing line has them locked.. they run and die. All the rest are dead, we're just looking for a shut down Raven.. Boom we win...

Chat (IS): clan mechs are OP

Chat (IS): clan pilots are missile noobs that's why they won.. no honor..

Chat: STFU and learn to fight


If they had just turned and went after the Clan firing line they would find that 50% of clan mechs would be shut down because of heat at any given time, they don't know or don't have the leadership and heart to mix it up, to do what their mechs are designed to do. that's why they lose. The Lords are one of the few groups I've seen fight clan mechs the way they should be fought, and they win 80% of the time.


I don't think it's fair that Clan pilots have to pay for (IS) lack of piloting skill or tactics, leave the mechs alone and teach the (IS) how to properly fight them.

This guy know's what's up. PGI needs to hire him for balance, their jobs would be so much easier.

[CyclonerM]

IS 'Mechs are already overbuffed (easily available Star League tech for example ) so they cannot be buffed endlessly.. However i totally like buffing IS 'Mechs instead of nerfing (further) Clan 'Mechs. I mean.. Small pulse lasers.. Was it needed?

I would like to see engine critical hits if engine damage is introduced, but it would affect both Clan and IS so it could not act as a balancing tool. I hope this fix is well tested anyway, the last thing you want Russ is the Clans pushed back into their homeworlds lol

[damonwolf]

Bilbo, on 17 September 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

How so. If the IS mech equips an XL it gives up survivability(it's dead rather hotter and slower). If the IS mech takes a STD engine, it is either slower, hotter or has less firepower(sometimes all three).

You are correct. But, the IS Mech still gains survivability. There are drawbacks to using a Standard engine, but one only loses weapons/equipment/ammo in that component only. Clan Mechs can't lose that option, and lose everything on that side. The only Engine penalty I can agree with for Clan mechs losing a ST is the loss of 1/3 of their heat sinks (as the engine exists in 3 components).

[Murphy7]

MerryIguana, on 17 September 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

We are more skilled! The cry of every player in every multiplayer ive ever played defending their ingame advantage.

I understand that one does not necessarily include or preclude the other, but:

• Clans (we) win beause the pilots are better / IS (they) lose because they are bad at the game
  
• Clans (we) deserve our superior technology because it is superior and has nothing to do with balanced play

Just has a certain cognitive dissonance for me.

If you are better, leveling out the technology or other balancing might make matches more competitive, that should be good right?

If changes are made and the field levels itself out, maybe your skills weren't as sharp as you thought, so you can hone them more, right?


I don't know. Ice cream headache.

[Bilbo]

damonwolf, on 17 September 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

You are correct. But, the IS Mech still gains survivability. There are drawbacks to using a Standard engine, but one only loses weapons/equipment/ammo in that component only. Clan Mechs can't lose that option, and lose everything on that side. The only Engine penalty I can agree with for Clan mechs losing a ST is the loss of 1/3 of their heat sinks (as the engine exists in 3 components).

I think that's all they are suggesting.

[Davegt27]

deleted

Edited by Davegt27, 17 September 2014 - 12:11 PM.

[Verdic Mckenna]

Compelling. As well as a mirror image of the complaint we've had for the last almost 3 years about premades vs. pugs in the Match Maker. It's the same wail.

mongo2006, on 17 September 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Look Russ, I've been saying for a while you can't nerf SKILL! To nerf clan mechs any further would be totally unfair to the pilots that have been playing for years. We have learned how to build and use our mechs properly, and thats why we win.

We've even adapted to your nerfs resulting in us becoming even better pilots, I bet in the data you'll find our hit rate went up as well, we are more careful with our aim. and conserving heat.

The fact IS every noob that comes to this game is a (IS) pilot, they don't know the maps, they can't properly build a mech, they don't have or use the wrong modules, they don't know where the kill zones are for each map, they won't do the one thing that gives the (IS) the clear advantage ZERG! If they would just have the heart and coordination to work together, the clans wouldn't have a chance. But that's something you learn over time.

But you would rather punish clan pilots so that people who are new to the game have an artificial advantage that negates our skill level? Trust me dude that 20% drop in win rate was 15% noobs with clan mechs and 5% Clan vets throwing the fight to avoid the NERF HAMMER. Skill and Coordination can't be nerfed Russ, we are at a tipping point where experienced pilots are going to abandon clan mechs and start piloting our (IS) mechs, or the more experienced pilots are going to leave the game. We have our noobs too that shut down every 2 shots, Dire Wolfs with 40 damage and dead, Timber Wolves with nothing but missiles and 2 medium lasers because they can't manage the heat of 3 lasers, disgusting..


TYPICAL (CLAN VS IS MATCH)


Chat: we moving right, ignore whats behind, we have missiles for that.

Chat: you got it..

Chat: Sounds good

Chat: copy

the whole group moves to the right and creates a firing line.. we wait for stragglers then we move side by side, not behind each other..

UAV goes up, the noobs have no idea what it is, I take out the DDC with missiles over any other mech, he was dumb enough to be on the front line. Clan firing line focuses anything that pops it's head up, we all have lasers so we win the firing line war 90% of the time, but they try 1/2 dead for their efforts.. We're pushing while we fire.. they start running, lights and mediums shoot them in the back, they leave their assaults to fend for them selves..they have crappy builds so I just shoot atlases in the left eye they drop like rocks, the rest we just arti to death (IS) noobs are too cheap for arties and air strikes. Missiles are on anything with missiles, AMS or ECM driven away from the rest of them they are now completely exposed. they have nothing left to stop the missiles or firing line, but can't fight because the firing line is moving on them, missiles are dropping on them, the firing line has them locked.. they run and die. All the rest are dead, we're just looking for a shut down Raven.. Boom we win...

Chat (IS): clan mechs are OP

Chat (IS): clan pilots are missile noobs that's why they won.. no honor..

Chat: STFU and learn to fight


If they had just turned and went after the Clan firing line they would find that 50% of clan mechs would be shut down because of heat at any given time, they don't know or don't have the leadership and heart to mix it up, to do what their mechs are designed to do. that's why they lose. The Lords are one of the few groups I've seen fight clan mechs the way they should be fought, and they win 80% of the time.


I don't think it's fair that Clan pilots have to pay for (IS) lack of piloting skill or tactics, leave the mechs alone and teach the (IS) how to properly fight them.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Monkey Lover, on 17 September 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Soon as they get all the clan pack money they can they're going to nerf them into the ground. This will allow them to sell both clan and IS mechs to the suckers.

Even if IS players suck they're going to buff them to make up for it.

I still pull high damage in my T-Wolf. My nerf shield is still running at 100% capacity.

So far the Clans are still better and Russ said that they might not touch the clans again. We will see.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 17 September 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Kassatsu]

Clan mechs are indeed still "better" than IS mechs. It's a far cry from their ridiculous advantages in TT, and nowhere near as bad as when they were first released, but it's still there. One of the main factors is speed and durability, not necessarily range/damage like a lot of people seem to think.

Hell, even the Adder can throw on an LBX20, lose some armor on the left arm and throw 2-3 tons of ammo, 2 medium lasers and a small laser on there. That's nearly the firepower of my LBX20 stormcrow build and certainly beats most other light mechs in the game - Two good shots up close and you've just legged an enemy that thought you were an easy kill.

Also, buff IS. Don't nerf clans more. Sure TTK is lower than ever, but you know what? I'm actually kind of okay with that. EDIT: Can we run a test server with no enemy HP values shown? Curious to see what people would do when all they can see is the % total of HP remaining on the HUD and have to look for the visible damage decals and destroyed components on their targets. I'm thinking PPFLD wouldn't be nearly as big of a problem then. On the other hand, this might have the reverse effect and make people target the CT exclusively. Bonus: Allow BAP to gather target information and share it with nearby allies a few seconds after it's given to the pilot using the BAP.

Re-implementing R&R would be a huge step as well, as clan tech is FAR more expensive. Anyone else remember the crying about losing c-bills because people were running an Atlas or a light mech with FF, ES and a huge XL engine? Yeah. You can have your ridiculously OP tech advantage, but you're gonna pay for it, literally. You'll break even on an above average match, lose money on anything worse and just barely make anything from a very good match. Though this would arguably mean premium is P2W since people would be making more c-bills to repair with. Should be a forced cost by the way, not an "optional" one that repairs/rearms up to 75% like before (that was a terrible idea, and a mech below 100% should never be able to be deployed outside of a defensive CW... thing that probably will never happen).

Edited by Kassatsu, 17 September 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Livewyr]

I consider myself fairly skilled at this game,

Clans are OP.

The work with weapons has narrowed the gap...but the biggest thing is the Clan XL.

I can run around with generally the same loadout that the IS can use...if the IS mech has an XL engine...and at that speed. And right now, I can lose a ST and think little of it (health wise).

Benefits of the XL engine. Half the risk.
ST destruction causing heat/speed problems is good enough for me. (Make it too serious, and the inability to switch to a STD engine would be grievous.)

[Murphy7]

Livewyr, on 17 September 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

I consider myself fairly skilled at this game,

Clans are OP.

The work with weapons has narrowed the gap...but the biggest thing is the Clan XL.

I can run around with generally the same loadout that the IS can use...if the IS mech has an XL engine...and at that speed. And right now, I can lose a ST and think little of it (health wise).

Benefits of the XL engine. Half the risk.
ST destruction causing heat/speed problems is good enough for me. (Make it too serious, and the inability to switch to a STD engine would be grievous.)

Less than half the risk, imo. Never been very impressed with Zombie mode, myself.

Good points being made - I would rather see engine criticals raise the heat floor for mechs, whether they occur on IS or Clan mechs, standard or XL engines myself. The risk is proportional to the number of engine criticals you are carrying, so it is still riskiest for IS XL, then Clan XL, then any standard engine. Scales well with light fusion engines if/when they are implemented.

[Bishop Steiner]

Argann, on 17 September 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

This guy know's what's up. PGI needs to hire him for balance, their jobs would be so much easier.

[Verdic Mckenna]

Livewyr, on 17 September 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

I consider myself fairly skilled at this game,

Clans are OP.

The work with weapons has narrowed the gap...but the biggest thing is the Clan XL.

I can run around with generally the same loadout that the IS can use...if the IS mech has an XL engine...and at that speed. And right now, I can lose a ST and think little of it (health wise).

Benefits of the XL engine. Half the risk.
ST destruction causing heat/speed problems is good enough for me. (Make it too serious, and the inability to switch to a STD engine would be grievous.)

^ That right there. That piece is what has me worried. I don't care if Jager is promoting this. Jager doesn't own the loss in my wallet, fun, play experience, or pride of being a long time Clansman. I'm OK with balance. I'm NOT Ok with balance through heavy handed game changes intentionally debilitating the side that was deemed "too strong".

[Livewyr]

Murphy7, on 17 September 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Less than half the risk, imo. Never been very impressed with Zombie mode, myself.

Good points being made - I would rather see engine criticals raise the heat floor for mechs, whether they occur on IS or Clan mechs, standard or XL engines myself. The risk is proportional to the number of engine criticals you are carrying, so it is still riskiest for IS XL, then Clan XL, then any standard engine. Scales well with light fusion engines if/when they are implemented.

Half the risk! (I can die with both STs gone. IS STD can zombie!)

I think any engine criticals overall should do that. Agreed.

[Thunder Lips Express]

mongo2006, on 17 September 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Look Russ, I've been saying for a while you can't nerf SKILL! To nerf clan mechs any further would be totally unfair to the pilots that have been playing for years. We have learned how to build and use our mechs properly, and thats why we win.

We've even adapted to your nerfs resulting in us becoming even better pilots, I bet in the data you'll find our hit rate went up as well, we are more careful with our aim. and conserving heat.

The fact IS every noob that comes to this game is a (IS) pilot, they don't know the maps, they can't properly build a mech, they don't have or use the wrong modules, they don't know where the kill zones are for each map, they won't do the one thing that gives the (IS) the clear advantage ZERG! If they would just have the heart and coordination to work together, the clans wouldn't have a chance. But that's something you learn over time.

But you would rather punish clan pilots so that people who are new to the game have an artificial advantage that negates our skill level? Trust me dude that 20% drop in win rate was 15% noobs with clan mechs and 5% Clan vets throwing the fight to avoid the NERF HAMMER. Skill and Coordination can't be nerfed Russ, we are at a tipping point where experienced pilots are going to abandon clan mechs and start piloting our (IS) mechs, or the more experienced pilots are going to leave the game. We have our noobs too that shut down every 2 shots, Dire Wolfs with 40 damage and dead, Timber Wolves with nothing but missiles and 2 medium lasers because they can't manage the heat of 3 lasers, disgusting..


TYPICAL (CLAN VS IS MATCH)


Chat: we moving right, ignore whats behind, we have missiles for that.

Chat: you got it..

Chat: Sounds good

Chat: copy

the whole group moves to the right and creates a firing line.. we wait for stragglers then we move side by side, not behind each other..

UAV goes up, the noobs have no idea what it is, I take out the DDC with missiles over any other mech, he was dumb enough to be on the front line. Clan firing line focuses anything that pops it's head up, we all have lasers so we win the firing line war 90% of the time, but they try 1/2 dead for their efforts.. We're pushing while we fire.. they start running, lights and mediums shoot them in the back, they leave their assaults to fend for them selves..they have crappy builds so I just shoot atlases in the left eye they drop like rocks, the rest we just arti to death (IS) noobs are too cheap for arties and air strikes. Missiles are on anything with missiles, AMS or ECM driven away from the rest of them they are now completely exposed. they have nothing left to stop the missiles or firing line, but can't fight because the firing line is moving on them, missiles are dropping on them, the firing line has them locked.. they run and die. All the rest are dead, we're just looking for a shut down Raven.. Boom we win...

Chat (IS): clan mechs are OP

Chat (IS): clan pilots are missile noobs that's why they won.. no honor..

Chat: STFU and learn to fight


If they had just turned and went after the Clan firing line they would find that 50% of clan mechs would be shut down because of heat at any given time, they don't know or don't have the leadership and heart to mix it up, to do what their mechs are designed to do. that's why they lose. The Lords are one of the few groups I've seen fight clan mechs the way they should be fought, and they win 80% of the time.


I don't think it's fair that Clan pilots have to pay for (IS) lack of piloting skill or tactics, leave the mechs alone and teach the (IS) how to properly fight them.

You are out of your mind...

[Lightdragon]

so what youre saying is... have super superior mechs that every player will want to play so that theres maybe only a handfull of pklayers on the is side of things? that sounds real fun

[Sandpit]

Russ Bullock, on 17 September 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Yes Clanners I think we can at least agree on that being a bug and needing fixed...then I think I can get the rest of the way with the IS changes.

Clans are still very different with their technology and more powerful in many settings BUT we hopefully have a very competitive CW

Remember:

IS Mech runs XL and loses a ST they die

Clan Mech loses ST they Live and are still fairly deadly.

Fixing it so they actually lose some Engine heat sinks at the least seems very reasonable

I think that's really good news for most. It could easily be adjusted as needed. One thing a lot of people want to discount is that clan mechs have the advantage of the smaller XL but that's somewhat offset by a few things that IS mechs can do that they can't.

The first being zombie builds. My Stalkers a lot of times, are nothing more than a walking stick by the end of the match with nor arms, no STs, hell I've even had a leg missing before on top of that, but I was still combat effective due to the CT mounted LL. IS mechs can lose both STs and still fight, clans don't have that ability and option.

The hardpoint placement also plays into that. Most clan mechs easily lose half their firepower (or more) when they lose an ST. Not the case for many IS builds.

The additional heat would be a great way to counter the small size of clan XLs.

(now about having a heat scale with more than just a 5 second shutdown as the penalty... lol)

[Kin3ticX]

This is a joke thread right?

[Monkey Lover]

Buffing all IS mechs is the same as nerfing all clan mechs. Doesn't matter how you say it.