136 replies to this topic

[Lefty Lucy]

I've seen way too many Timberwolves and Dire Wolves firing small lasers at 800 meters and firing missiles at non-ECM targets with no locks for the OP's premise to be anywhere near a "typical" match.

[Verdic Mckenna]

I can deal with this kind of balanced approach to ST penalties. As long as they aren't as heavy handed as people were making them out to seem. Hearing it from you makes me feel much better. Looking forward to seeing proper critical damage. Clan mechs will definitely have less protracted engagement power.

Russ Bullock, on 17 September 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

You guys have already been told the plan - I am still hoping to not touch their weapons again.

- IS Quirks

and at the least fix what I consider a bug when a clan mech has there Side Torso destroyed yet they keep 100% of their Engine heat sinks. At the least we need to fix that with their ST destruction.

These items and I hope were there

In short Clan players - smile life is good

[Primetimex]

Seriously on a Clan mech like Warhawk - the left torso is basically useless since it's pre-filled with DHS and internal structures - losing that means that half of your weapons is effectively gone from the left arm and you still want to further NERF the Clan for loss of ST??

On other Clan mechs losing a side torso means losing weapons, heatsinks and whatever else is stored there - enough penalties.

Edited by GetterRobo, 17 September 2014 - 12:49 PM.

[IsaAurinkoinen]

Theres a problem here. Clan XL nerf also hit those not so good clan mechs.

Timber, Dire and Storm will still be so much better than rest ones and worst ones whose needs little buff (Adder, Nova and Summoner) will be even worse than now.

I think we need more put those OP mechs same line than rest by negative quirks or something not nerf clan mechs/clanweapons as whole.

[LegioIV]

I have been trying new builds with my ultra nerfed Victor DS ( trying to make it a good mech with out that stupid 2 ppc 2ac5 build, WILL NEVER USE IT!) and the IS have been doing great against the clans if we lose its 5 to 12 or 10 to 12 and if we win its close to the same.) I cant wait for some quirks for the IS though (Zoidburg voice) maybe a positive quirk for the Victor maybe?

[Carrie Harder]

IsaAurinkoinen, on 17 September 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

Theres a problem here. Clan XL nerf also hit those not so good clan mechs.

Timber, Dire and Storm will still be so much better than rest ones and worst ones whose needs little buff (Adder, Nova and Summoner) will be even worse than now.

I think we need more put those OP mechs same line than rest by negative quirks or something not nerf clan mechs/clanweapons as whole.

This is exactly the issue with balancing the Clans right now. The majority of people are focusing on the 2-3 outlier chassis that own their weight class, and then saying "Clan mech X is OP, therefore EVERY SINGLE Clan mech and weapon must be OP too!"

People need to break this down on a case-by-case basis. Yeah, mechs like the Mad Cat are top-tier, we get that. But don't roflstomp nerf the sub-par ones like the Adder and Summoner into the ground just to spite the Mad Cat, please?

Edited by Carrie Harder, 17 September 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[Sandpit]

Carrie Harder, on 17 September 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

This is exactly the issue with balancing the Clans right now. The majority of people are focusing on the 2-3 outlier chassis that own their weight class, and then saying "Clan mech X is OP, therefore EVERY SINGLE Clan mech and weapon must be OP too!"

You just described most of the balancing issues in MWO lol

Many times something is labeled "op" due to its use in 1-2 "meta" type builds that are somewhat "op". nerfing a singular weapon based on that premise does make those few outliers more balanced, but every thing else that doesn't use it in that very specific and narrow fashion then becomes nerfed into the ground.

[LegioIV]

Carrie Harder, on 17 September 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

This is exactly the issue with balancing the Clans right now. The majority of people are focusing on the 2-3 outlier chassis that own their weight class, and then saying "Clan mech X is OP, therefore EVERY SINGLE Clan mech and weapon must be OP too!"

People need to break this down on a case-by-case basis. Yeah, mechs like the Mad Cat are top-tier, we get that. But don't roflstomp nerf the sub-par ones like the Adder and Summoner into the ground just to spite the Mad Cat, please?

I agree I dont use a summoner or adder I only have A Timber wolf but by smurfy and killing them I cant tell they are hurt by there build. The Summoner cant go toe to toe with many of its builds, other then a srm or lrm blast build that the timber can do far better.

[pwnface]

I'm really glad to see that Russ is actively responding to these type of threads on the forums, this gives me some hope for MWO.

I think removing some of the engine DHS on ST destruction for a clan XL engine is very reasonable. Having no penalties at all for having a chunk of your engine destroyed was/is kind of ridiculous. Removing some of the DHS from the engine will lower the heat cap as well as heat dissipation rate for a damaged mech but will still leave the mech dangerous in a fight.

[Smelly]

Ok I go a question for you people that don't think clan xl engines are overpowered.

If you could mount the IS version of the clan xl into your IS mechs would you do it?

I bet most people would do it in a heartbeat. I'm sure no one would ever use the Standard IS xl engine again because why use that when your light fusion engine or whatever it's called can do the same thing but better.

Now IMHO I think that having just a loss of heat sinks from a clan xl side torso loss probably won't be enough it has to have a maneuverability penalty. Preferably a 10% loss of max speed, torso turn rate, acceleration, deceleration, and turn speed. I know it may seem to some a bit heavy handed but considering you just had a part of your engine heavily damage or destroyed whichever term you'd like to use it makes since. I mean seriously having a part of your engine which is the heart and soul of your mech destroyed should be meaningful. Also seeing as how if a IS with a XL would've lost a side torso he'd be dead and out of the fight while the clan mech is still able to fight but not at top efficiency.

Edited by Smelly, 17 September 2014 - 01:35 PM.

[DasaDevil]

Smelly, on 17 September 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

Ok I go a question for you people that don't think clan xl engines are overpowered.

If you could mount the IS version of the clan xl into your IS mechs would you do it?

I bet most people would do it in a heartbeat. I'm sure no one would ever use the Standard IS xl engine again because why use that when your light fusion engine or whatever it's called can do the same thing but better.

Now IMHO I think that having just a loss of heat sinks from a clan xl side torso loss probably won't be enough it has to have a maneuverability penalty. Preferably a 10% loss of max speed, torso turn rate, acceleration, deceleration, and turn speed. I know it may seem to some a bit heavy handed but considering you just had a part of your engine heavily damage or destroyed whichever term you'd like to use it makes since. Also seeing as how if a IS with a XL would've lost a side torso he'd be dead and out of the fight while the clan mech is still able to fight but not at top efficiency.

You do realize that the Clan mechs cannot change their engine, right?

[pwnface]

I think any loss of speed whether it be top speed, acceleration, or turn speed should be tested AFTER the heat sink penalty is put in place first. In theory, I'm not opposed to losing 10% speed for losing a ST on a clan XL, but I'm hoping PGI won't follow their history of multiple heavy handed nerfs and make one change at a time. Once they get some feedback, they can adjust it further if they wish to.

[Smelly]

Yes I know that but you think it would be any different if IS were to get OMNI mechs?

[pwnface]

DasaDevil, on 17 September 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

You do realize that the Clan mechs cannot change their engine, right?

I'm pretty sure everyone posting on these forums knows this... this doesn't mean Smelly's idea doesn't make sense though. Clan mechs are still overpowered at the moment.

@Smelly

Let's leave IS omnimechs out of this until they are actually in the game. Worry about balancing future tech when it arrives.

Edited by pwnface, 17 September 2014 - 01:39 PM.

[Jacob Side]

Sandpit, on 17 September 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

one of the ideas being floated is an increase in heat production with the loss of an ST for clan mechs. At the very least the loss of heat sinks contained in that particular ST engine slot. Losing 2-3 internal heat sinks per side torso would be a good way to balance them. I don't think the weapons are the issue personally

EDIT:

Dammit! See? That's the downside to dev participation on the forums. You think you have good insight, post it and get ninja'd by the dam prez lol

Weird isn't it, getting ninja'd by Russ

[Bilbo]

DasaDevil, on 17 September 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

You do realize that the Clan mechs cannot change their engine, right?

I'd be willing to bet that even if they were given the option and PGI's proposed penalties were put in place, no one would put a STD engine in a clan mech except on a lark.

[Hoax415]

We really ought to run a test before the Clan XL change and the quirk pass through and then again after it while attempting to find out how balanced is 12v12 Clan vs IS in more "tryhard" settings.

We need a challenge running in the group queue with a prize awarded for wins while group queue is turned to IS v Clan preferably for a full Saturday at least.

This will tell us a lot of things.

1. If everyone uses their clan mech then we know which mechs the players think are more powerful. Which does say something.

2. The results of this test are much more meaningful to all the doubters who cling to the idea that trial mechs, bad pilots, less dedicated pilots (because they spend less MC), bad team work, conspiracy to get clan mechs unfair nerfed etc. We are incentivizing winning with the challenge and we're in the group queue which is already something more casual players avoid.

3. We finally will get some actual robust 12-man vs 12-man data on Clan vs IS. CW is in part a place where people will try a little harder to win. Its certainly expected to be a little less casual than just hitting play now and dropping solo.

I really hope that PGI can get it together to run something like this. Its badly needed and would provide much more meaningful data on where balance actually is.

Edited by Hoax415, 17 September 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Snowseth, on 17 September 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

There must be some nerfs! Specifically, the ST-loss 'nerf' for C-XL engines.
I think that 'nerf' alone would be exactly what is needed.
Hell, there may need to be a round of Clan un-nerfs following it, depending on how devastating it that ST-loss is (loss of speed, extra heat, loss of engine heat sinks [remember engine DHS are 2.0 not 1.4], etc).

You know the side torso nerf IS players seem to want is really unfair to Clan pilots right?

I mean you cannot decide to take a Standard engine on Clan mechs to avoid having to deal with side torso penalties like you can on IS mechs. Yet Again, people calling for nerfs aren't thinking EVERYTHING through. You got to take these sorts of situations into account as well when balancing.

[Mikros04]

GetterRobo, on 17 September 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

Seriously on a Clan mech like Warhawk - the left torso is basically useless since it's pre-filled with DHS and internal structures - losing that means that half of your weapons is effectively gone from the left arm and you still want to further NERF the Clan for loss of ST??

I know right!?!? That's way worse than being dead and out of the match if you lose one ST!

[pwnface]

Viktor Drake, on 17 September 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

You know the side torso nerf IS players seem to want is really unfair to Clan pilots right?

I mean you cannot decide to take a Standard engine on Clan mechs to avoid having to deal with side torso penalties like you can on IS mechs. Yet Again, people calling for nerfs aren't thinking EVERYTHING through. You got to take these sorts of situations into account as well when balancing.

I don't think it is just IS players calling for nerfs to Clan XL engines. It seems like the majority of the community believes there needs to be at least SOME penalties for losing a ST on a Clan XL engine. I believe losing a few DHS is actually very reasonable and makes a lot of sense.