52 replies to this topic

[Carrie Harder]

Marmon Rzohr, on 18 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

The Dire Wolf's mobility will probably only be an issue in competitive play. In PUG play it is the king. Most PUG games are either static or quite scattered, and the Whale thrives in both situations. It's ability to oneshot or cripple anything in the game is simply crazy. In my opinion it's the bad whale pilots with UAC2 and UAC5 builds that give people a sense that "hey I can run circles around that thing". Sure, the slow speed can result in being left behind and zerged or LRMed, but personally nothing scares me like the whale in the hands of a skilled pilot. Since games almost never come down to 1vs1 situations, good positioning can almost negate the mobility disadvantage the whale has.

The Whale seems almost specifically designed to capitalize on the bad habits of the "average" pug player. People who don't twist, don't flank, crowd into a chokepoint, etc...they get hard-countered like fire versus ice. I place the blame mostly in the players for that, though. I will admit that there are a few builds that are unduly scary (like everybody's favorite classic 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss, or 6 ERML + 2 ERLL + 2 Gauss), but in general I just kite them and pick at them from afar like I do with most enemies.

Marmon Rzohr, on 18 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

The Nova isn't as tanky as the good IS mediums, true, but it still has speed and a lot of JJs and it isn't exceptionally vulnerable either due to being quite small. The arm mounted weapons can get blown off, but it's quite easy to shield your damaged arm from return fire, so not really such a big deal considering how much firepower you pack.

Its speed is roughly "average" for mediums, or perhaps a small nudge below the 55 ton IS overlords. The extra JJs aren't that great because they're mostly just used for hitbox abuse (all JJ mechs) and hovering over rocks. Shielding the arms depends on just how far the other guy goes, he has to twist most of the full way to protect it. His nose and legs will still be exposed regardless of how far he twists. The arms stick out fairly far, though, so a lot of the time they attract fire even if they weren't the intended target.



Its scaling isn't really that "small." It's roughly Hunchback height but wider and leggier, see this image link for reference (not posted directly because it's so huge): http://i.imgur.com/3e2gtgw.jpg

Marmon Rzohr, on 18 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Suckoner ?
Yes, IS heavies can pack more firepower, but none of them are nearly as tanky as the Summoner and are not even in the same league when it comes to mobility. It's crazy quickness gives it a big advantage in both brawling situations and sniping situations, and it can pack a good loadout for both. The Jager and Cataphract can mount more weapons, but are slow and squishy in comparison. When it comes to PUG games the Summoner's durability and mobility would give it a clear edge. If you sit in one place and snipe, you might have more success with the Jager due to more alpha damage, but if you can use the mobility, it's just fantastic.

IS heavies generally go "fast enough" to get their job done. They don't really need to go 89.1...it would be nice to, but it's not needed. The mid-lower 70s to lower 80s is usually the "sweet spot" for heavy speeds. It's sort of like the comparison between the Spider 5V and 5D (5V is faster by roughly 18 kph, but it's still outclassed by the 5D due to hardpoints and ECM). Jagers usually qualify as squishy, but they also make their targets equally squishy. Cataphracts vary depending on the loadout and how well they twist around, they usually don't last as long as the Suckoner but they aren't usually "squishy" outside of things like Gauss in a side torso with XL. The main red flag of the Suckoner is its hardpoints...oh dear god the hardpoints. Not enough of them to boat small weapons like ERML, and not enough tonnage to load up on a small number of big guns (most you can do is roughly ERPPC + Gauss?). Low mounted arms don't make long range fights any easier. Long legs taste like chicken.

[Alistair Winter]

Carrie Harder, on 18 September 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Its speed is roughly "average" for mediums, or perhaps a small nudge below the 55 ton IS overlords. The extra JJs aren't that great because they're mostly just used for hitbox abuse (all JJ mechs) and hovering over rocks.

Speaking of Nova jump jets:
The other day, I saw the coolest thing I've seen in months of playing. We were playing Assault on Crimson Strait, and I was pushing tunnel from the dock-side towards the enemy base. As I run toward the tunnel exit, an enemy Nova jumps into the air and descends slowly from the roof of the tunnel mouth, staying airborne thanks to its jump jets, with its guns trained on me. It was probably airborne for 4-5 seconds. It looked like an Apache gunship hovering slowly towards the ground, guns blazing.

Ultimately, it was a ridiculous thing to do, and it died the second it hit the ground, after I smashed its CT like a piñata, but... damn, that looked so cool for a moment.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 18 September 2014 - 09:46 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 18 September 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

No, you shan't. I'm not saying that no individual will be able to do well with a Nova. I'm saying that almost everyone who does well with the Nova, will do better with other mechs, like the Storm Crow.

Always find this line of reasoning a tad fallacious.

Different mechs have different quirks, different feels. Weapon location, agility, weapon type, speed, hitboxes give each a unique blend. While that blend may not be the best for the masses, to assume if one does well in Mech X, he will do Better in MEch Z, is oversimplified twaddle. For instance, just the difference in one jumping and one not, might be the difference in one's success between the two chassis.

[RiceCop]

The Nova Cats run the Nova all the time and we love the mech. It's great for hit and fade tactics but you do have to be careful not to get in a brawl with it.

[Lily from animove]

Alistair Winter, on 18 September 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Speaking of Nova jump jets:
The other day, I saw the coolest thing I've seen in months of playing. We were playing Assault on Crimson Strait, and I was pushing tunnel from the dock-side towards the enemy base. As I run toward the tunnel exit, an enemy Nova jumps into the air and descends slowly from the roof of the tunnel mouth, staying airborne thanks to its jump jets, with its guns trained on me. It was probably airborne for 4-5 seconds. It looked like an Apache gunship hovering slowly towards the ground, guns blazing.

Ultimately, it was a ridiculous thing to do, and it died the second it hit the ground, after I smashed its CT like a piñata, but... damn, that looked so cool for a moment.

thats exactly why to choose a nova, probably the most cool looking mech. But in any serious competition, not a mech of choice.

I Once jumped down on HPG and landed on a teamed Direwolf, and stacke dlike this we killed an opponent. That must have been an epic sight from his point of view.

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Always find this line of reasoning a tad fallacious.

Different mechs have different quirks, different feels. Weapon location, agility, weapon type, speed, hitboxes give each a unique blend. While that blend may not be the best for the masses, to assume if one does well in Mech X, he will do Better in MEch Z, is oversimplified twaddle. For instance, just the difference in one jumping and one not, might be the difference in one's success between the two chassis.

While this is true, its actually only the JJ that nova is better in. Anythign else, Hardpoint location, mobility, hitboxes, weapon type, speed. After a few session in Sc's I need to say piloting a SC feels like a direct upgrade to the nova. I used This SC and I feel like I just went easy mode compared to the using a regular nova.
Speed difference is significant. The way you can popout and pop back makes you dodge serveral times the damage compared to a Nova. Simply because the wide geometry of the Nova makes you often still eat some hits before you disappear.
But in the SC you have much more punch you can sustain, faster agility and turn rates. It feels nearly ridiculous How easy and well this works compared to how you have to behave and be aware in a Nova all the time. tell me any nova build that does not gimp its damage dramaticalyl for staying cool, there is nearly none. Because you can't even pack decent ballistics on it with having decent ammo or laser backup.

With the hardwired DHS and JJ's you have not much choices what to make with the nova its just more lasers more heat, or the other way around. double PPC.

And then we come to the aspect of FUN. Only a very few Nova builds work, while you can make a lot of laser fun builds.
In a Stormcrow I can make a load of loadouts be they fun or not, And still they all work properly, maybe not extremely good, but proper enough to be decent and have a load of fun.

Even this rather stupid LRM 5 chainfire Trollspam build works fine

RiceCop, on 18 September 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

The Nova Cats run the Nova all the time and we love the mech. It's great for hit and fade tactics but you do have to be careful not to get in a brawl with it.

but you can do this build, except the MG's in a SC as well, and it will work better. Better cooled , faster ,more agile more armor, just no JJ's but since you mostlikely stick with teammates the aren't that important. or make a SC like that and you have even more ballistic punch on a lot more range. This wrecks ass comapred to the Nova.

And sry but the video is bad, the first 2 kills were on already red CT's even a kit fox with 2 CERML could have done them (actually every mech could have done these kills), and in a SC the third mech you wrecked would have been down in a way shorter time If you fart a lbx10 into the opponent. with a tc 1 this crits the hell out of your opps.

And here we come bakc to the topic, while Summoner and Nova have only 5t less than their counterparts in their weighclass, they are not only 10% or 7% inferior. The different is Huge, Huge by the tonnage locked in JJ's and what FF + ES additionally grant these mechs. And this is then so much that the choice is nearly a no brainer.

[Ozric]

Empyrus, on 18 September 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

Don't ******* touch the construction rules.

I'm not sure we are playing the same game... You are not aware that the construction rules in MWO are already all over the place? Let me just put a single JJ on my TBR-S, while I max the armour (needed to defend yourself against rear-facing weapons of course).

Edited by Ozric, 19 September 2014 - 02:40 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lily from animove, on 19 September 2014 - 02:27 AM, said:

thats exactly why to choose a nova, probably the most cool looking mech. But in any serious competition, not a mech of choice.

I Once jumped down on HPG and landed on a teamed Direwolf, and stacke dlike this we killed an opponent. That must have been an epic sight from his point of view.


While this is true, its actually only the JJ that nova is better in. Anythign else, Hardpoint location, mobility, hitboxes, weapon type, speed. After a few session in Sc's I need to say piloting a SC feels like a direct upgrade to the nova. I used This SC and I feel like I just went easy mode compared to the using a regular nova.
Speed difference is significant. The way you can popout and pop back makes you dodge serveral times the damage compared to a Nova. Simply because the wide geometry of the Nova makes you often still eat some hits before you disappear.
But in the SC you have much more punch you can sustain, faster agility and turn rates. It feels nearly ridiculous How easy and well this works compared to how you have to behave and be aware in a Nova all the time. tell me any nova build that does not gimp its damage dramaticalyl for staying cool, there is nearly none. Because you can't even pack decent ballistics on it with having decent ammo or laser backup.

With the hardwired DHS and JJ's you have not much choices what to make with the nova its just more lasers more heat, or the other way around. double PPC.

And then we come to the aspect of FUN. Only a very few Nova builds work, while you can make a lot of laser fun builds.
In a Stormcrow I can make a load of loadouts be they fun or not, And still they all work properly, maybe not extremely good, but proper enough to be decent and have a load of fun.

Even this rather stupid LRM 5 chainfire Trollspam build works fine



but you can do this build, except the MG's in a SC as well, and it will work better. Better cooled , faster ,more agile more armor, just no JJ's but since you mostlikely stick with teammates the aren't that important. or make a SC like that and you have even more ballistic punch on a lot more range. This wrecks ass comapred to the Nova.

And sry but the video is bad, the first 2 kills were on already red CT's even a kit fox with 2 CERML could have done them (actually every mech could have done these kills), and in a SC the third mech you wrecked would have been down in a way shorter time If you fart a lbx10 into the opponent. with a tc 1 this crits the hell out of your opps.

And here we come bakc to the topic, while Summoner and Nova have only 5t less than their counterparts in their weighclass, they are not only 10% or 7% inferior. The different is Huge, Huge by the tonnage locked in JJ's and what FF + ES additionally grant these mechs. And this is then so much that the choice is nearly a no brainer.

Did you just pull the fun card? Fun is subjective. Dome people find the OP nature of TWolves and Stormcrows "Fun". Some people find Poptarting, and "WINNING" fun.

I find the Summoner and Nova more fun, because of the challenge, and because winning is entirely based on skill, not how stupid broken the mech is.

Not denying the SC is not, in the whole, a better mech. SImply was pointing out a fallacy of reasoning. One proven, by the number of people I know who enjoy driving their Novas, and hate the SC. And yes, there are a number who feel the exact opposite, too.

[Ultimax]

Alistair Winter, on 18 September 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

I just think PGI sometimes overestimates the significance of minor quirks. I mean, the AWS got some major quirks that really played a big difference (although it's still not quite on par with other assault mechs). But some of the other quirks added recently have been underwhelming. A 10% armour boost on the Centurion shield arm is basically nothing.

Not every mech has to be "up to par" with every other mech IMO.

This is just an unrealistic goal.


The ones that are unlucky in their design or translate from TT or TT art (like the AWS) just need enough quirks that they aren't an outright detriment to the team.

Outside of the comp players, who understandably, are only going to play the "best" mechs in tournaments, etc.

For the rest of the average playerbase I think most are willing to massage a not perfectly optimal mech into decent performance as long as it has enough going for it to make it work - again like the AWS quirks which make it unique and add flavor to the mech (and some performance boosts).


That's what well thought out positive quirks can do.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 September 2014 - 06:18 AM.

[MountainCopper]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

If you find the JJs near useless, you have been using them wrong.

Far from optimal in current state, but also far from useless. Lot's of other uses beside getting height for poptarting.

Just am coming back from playing some games with 5 JJs in a Summoner. This being the full amount of JJ for this Mech, the performance is god-awful.
I would expect that performance from 1 JJ, 2 at most, but for 5 / 5 it's very close to being a complete waste of tonnage right now.

In comparison, even having 4 / 6 JJ in a Kit Fox is worlds better. And yes, that is comparing a Light with a Heavy. But still...

1453 R, on 18 September 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

[...] It is supposed to be an agile, highly jump-capable chassis - demanding the ability to pull all the jump jets off of it so you can turn it into a Clanaphract is simply showing that you're not really interested in piloting a Summoner. [...]

It isn't "highly jump-capable". The fact that players want to remove most of the JJ in a Summoner is, that because even having a full amount of 5 JJs performs so abysmally, the choice would be between 1 JJ or none at all.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Alistair Winter, on 18 September 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

No, you shan't. I'm not saying that no individual will be able to do well with a Nova. I'm saying that almost everyone who does well with the Nova, will do better with other mechs, like the Storm Crow.

.

That doesn't even make sense.

The stormcrow is a missile and laser combo mech.

Nova mounts lasers and ballistics and has almost double the laser hardpoints.

They mount different weapon types, have substantially different top speeds and different roles.

The stormcrow is more of a fast moving strafing mech. While the nova is a slower moving heavy fire support mech.

One isn't better than the other, the way a person would play a stormcrow is a different playstyle from how a person would play a nova.

Saying the stormcrow is better than a nova is like saying a victor is better than a stalker due to it being better at some things. Of course, its inaccurate to make those types of statements. Apples and oranges.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 19 September 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[Training Instructor]

Ghost heat hinders the nova

[Mcgral18]

Training Instructor, on 19 September 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Ghost heat hinders the nova

Heat hinders the Nova.

150% heat small lasers, 120% heat med lasers.

[Lily from animove]

I Zeratul I, on 19 September 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

.

That doesn't even make sense.

The stormcrow is a missile and laser combo mech.

Nova mounts lasers and ballistics and has almost double the laser hardpoints.

They mount different weapon types, have substantially different top speeds and different roles.

The stormcrow is more of a fast moving strafing mech. While the nova is a slower moving heavy fire support mech.

One isn't better than the other, the way a person would play a stormcrow is a different playstyle from how a person would play a nova.

Saying the stormcrow is better than a nova is like saying a victor is better than a stalker due to it being better at some things. Of course, its inaccurate to make those types of statements. Apples and oranges.

that would be true, when the nova would be able to make use of that "more laser firepower" but a SC laserbuild can exceed the Nova's laser build because the Nova can not remotely close reach the SC's heat dissipation. One reason is lower general tonnage, another is no ES FF and the last one is Fixed JJs consuming further tonnage and slots.. And on top of that SC is more agile and has better hotpoints and hardpoint locations. if the Nova would have 4 or 5 tons more podspace to invest in DHS then it would be better in boating Energiewepaons than the SC, but it doesn't have and so will never be.

Edited by Lily from animove, 10 October 2014 - 02:53 AM.