121 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Mcgral18, on 18 September 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

So, you're fine with leaving the garbage variants garbage, I see.

How do you intend to gimp the good ones, without further gimping the already gimped ones? See heat nerfs and HoverJets™.

On the contrary. I’m trying to keep a fundamental balancing rule of Clan construction in place that limits the good ‘Mechs, if not as extensively as it limits unfortunates like the Mist Lynx. However, more on this below.

Saxie, on 18 September 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

I dont mind if people rip the jj's off the Thor/Nova. See JJ nerf. Again there is no reason to bring a Thor over Timber, no reason for the Nova over the Crow. The reason being is what I'm arguing. This argument is about the JJ's and the active probe and the Flamer. What other variants do you have currently that have fixed equipment outside of Double heat sinks? There are 3 Variants currently the Adder, Summoner, and Nova. These are also oddly and ironically the step children of the clan field currently.

I see you side stepped one point. Why do you have flexibility with the Kit and the Timber that you don't have with the Summoner and Nova.

In the case of the Timber Wolf, because Piranha were dummies. I don’t agree with the Timber Wolf having access to its S-variant pods and in fact have only one of three Timber Wolves currently jump-equipped. In recent days I’ve been thinking real hard of stripping down my Timber-S and rebuilding it jetless as well, no matter how enjoyable I find the recreation of my once-excellent VTR-9S configuration on the Wolf. It was a dun goof on Piranha’s part to include the Timber Wolf S.

On the part of the Kit Fox, that’s simply the breaks I’m afraid. I don’t have a good answer for you, especially since the only ‘good answer’ you’ll accept is “Let’s throw away Clan Omnimech construction rules altogether and make them as flexible and Play Dough-y as IS ‘Mechs.” I can’t even begin to tell you how horrible an idea that is. I know I can’t. I’ve tried to tell you how horrible an idea breaking the hard-locked base chassis rule is, and you keep telling me I’m either an idiot or a malicious anti-Clan jerkbag. Which is the dumbest thing I’ve heard all day considering my faction icon and the Masakari Pack logo beneath it. I’m looking forward to my SplatDog on Tuesday – do you really think I’m here to argue that Clan junk needs to stay junk? o_O

The answer to bad jump jets is not ripping them off of all Clan ‘Mechs ever, it’s to try and convince Paul to make jump jets useful again. The use of the Omnipod system over Mr. Potatohead IS-style construction is one of the defining features of the Clan technology base and one of the central ways those ‘Mechs feel significantly different than IS ‘Mechs. If the Mist Lynx is looking like a bad ride because you want to rip the jump jets and the active probe off of it, kick its engine up to a 255XL and reassign the structure slots, then maybe wait for the Arctic Cheetah instead. At this point I’m strongly tempted to play ECM-less Missed Lynxes just because. Put the B arms on the Prime, run with 3 C-ERML and eight SRM tubes or something of the like, and see what I can do. Will it be super-de-dooper Ultra Optimal Yeah-Sure-I’d-Take-This-To-RHoD? No. But then again nothing is.

Deathlike, on 18 September 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

TBH, the Timberwolf's engine is not a hindrance, considering it'll need that many DHS minimum to cool many of the builds it'll be using, especially with the prevalence of the CERMED. It might not have as much tonnage as people would like, but for the most part, it's more diverse than any other mech (or any heavy at minimum) in this game.

Even single time I read that "Timberwolf has a super engine" as a negative, I facepalm. This is vastly different than say the Gargoyle/Man O War.

To clarify: I have no issue at all with the Timber Wolf’s engine and would run it with its stock 375XL even if I had the option not to. I’m merely pointing out that many players, if given the same option, would not run the 375XL on it, dropping down to a 300XL or thereabouts instead and getting a pile of extra firepower in the design because they love guns and hate speed. And then we’d see Timber Wolves with significantly more firepower than a Cataphract, better armor and durability, and with no real loss in agility as nobody runs anything bigger than a 280 in a Cataphract anyways. You’d just edge the thing out completely, save in CW where Cataphract pilots get to grind their teeth in jealous, impotent rage as the Timber Wolves win all the games and steal all the wimminz.

That’s the sort of thing you’d have to be prepared to see if you decided to throw away the hard-locked base chassis rules because that active probe on the Mist Lynx gives you a sad.

Edited by 1453 R, 18 September 2014 - 01:19 PM.

[Deathlike]

Artgathan, on 18 September 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

There's a lot of mis-construing of 1453 R's arguments going around. What he is saying is this:

The rules must be applied consistently. If we bend the construction rules for a mech, people will rightly be able to ask "why not bend them for the rest?". PGI will not be able to answer "because they're the rules" because the rules will have been broken. You cannot selectively enforce rules.

I agree with 1453's assessment.

That said, I do think some quirks could help benefit some of the "under-performers". Heat quirks, armor boosts, refire rate decreases, whatever. Just not modifications to the construction rules.

There are really two ways of doing it... you'll end up changing the rules regardless...

1) Be less restrictive, as in don't lock equipment that isn't the engine or the fixed FF/Endo hardpoints. This way, the Adder's CT Flamer hardpoint can be used in something more productive... but this will require time to revamp the visuals on the mech. This provides the most flexibility w/o compromising too much. I'm sure there will be particular builds that would benefit greatly, so it's just something to think about. The Nova+Summoner would benefit from this of course...

2) Be more restrictive... instead of allowing the Kitfox-S/Timberwolf-S to allow easy modification of adding and removing JJs at will (and possibly other electronics such as BAP/ECM if hard-locked, but not on the CT), and must be permanently connected to the mech's omnipod section. While this makes existing better mechs worse (Kitfox+Timberwolf), it would at least "level the field" for the Nova+Summoner, but it doesn't make the Nova and Summoner better.

The system as is makes some mechs better than others for no good particular reason outside of their natural "fixed" nature, so something has to give in this current relationship.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 September 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kevjack, on 18 September 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Not quite true. I haven't seen a fixed targeting computer yet.

I maybe a little late to the party, but I do want to point this out.
While a TComp can't be fixed, you won't see a single canon Warhawk configuration without one.

[Empyrus]

Kevjack, on 18 September 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Not quite true. I haven't seen a fixed targeting computer yet.

As per TT rules, TCs cannot be hardwired, unlike most other equipment.

[Deathlike]

1453 R, on 18 September 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

To clarify: I have no issue at all with the Timber Wolf’s engine and would run it with its stock 375XL even if I had the option not to. I’m merely pointing out that many players, if given the same option, would not run the 375XL on it, dropping down to a 300XL or thereabouts instead and getting a pile of extra firepower in the design because they love guns and hate speed. And then we’d see Timber Wolves with significantly more firepower than a Cataphract, better armor and durability, and with no real loss in agility as nobody runs anything bigger than a 280 in a Cataphract anyways. You’d just edge the thing out completely, save in CW where Cataphract pilots get to grind their teeth in jealous, impotent rage as the Timber Wolves win all the games and steal all the wimminz.

I get this. I have not advocated for Clan XL engines being "unlocked", as that would woefully imbalance the current ecosystem. I'm only suggesting less influential subsystems to be modified, because some of it is a little heavy handed unnecessarily.

As a labrat/min-maxer, I know exactly what being able to drop in bigger/slower engines will do to the game. However, I still like the idea to be able to upgrade/downgrade the engines like back in MW2, using fixed engine multipliers... so you either go 81kph, or go 64.8kph if you want to... but that's for a different discussion. For the purposes of this discussion, WE ARE NOT GOING TO TOUCH ENGINES, just everything else that isn't FF/Endo fixed locations.

Quote

That’s the sort of thing you’d have to be prepared to see if you decided to throw away the hard-locked base chassis rules because that active probe on the Mist Lynx gives you a sad.

Right now, the Koshi is a whole lot of sad, based on what it has to work with. Some of the same stuff could be said for the Nova and Summoner... and I have a few ideas on how to address that, but it would be just as controversial I guess.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 18 September 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

... but this will require time to revamp the visuals on the mech. This provides the most flexibility w/o compromising too much.

Actually, I believe most of the models, like the Adder have those visuals accounted for, there is a model for a CT PPC and Laser in the files. They even have models for all variants that weren't released, like the Timby's shoulder pod with 3 energy weapons....

[Mcgral18]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 September 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Actually, I believe most of the models, like the Adder have those visuals accounted for, there is a model for a CT PPC and Laser in the files. They even have models for all variants that weren't released, like the Timby's shoulder pod with 3 energy weapons....

Any missiles for the Nope-va?

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 September 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Actually, I believe most of the models, like the Adder have those visuals accounted for, there is a model for a CT PPC and Laser in the files. They even have models for all variants that weren't released, like the Timby's shoulder pod with 3 energy weapons....

I'm sure this is the case, but then again we have abominations like the Hunchback-4G when you add the 2nd and 3rd ballistic into it...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 18 September 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Any missiles for the Nope-va?

Yep, a whole one hardpoint that hangs down from the shoulder, Im guessing from the C config, though they didn't do the D config for some reason (should have a missile arm as well)....
I will note, the Nova would apparently be capable of 3 AMS if they added all the omnipods, which is funny seeing the model with.

I'm hoping one day the will release all the omnipods that aren't redundant like they did with the Nova A's side torso and the Kit Fox C's right arm.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 18 September 2014 - 01:56 PM.

[1453 R]

Deathlike, on 18 September 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

As a labrat/min-maxer, I know exactly what being able to drop in bigger/slower engines will do to the game. However, I still like the idea to be able to upgrade/downgrade the engines like back in MW2, using fixed engine multipliers... so you either go 81kph, or go 64.8kph if you want to... but that's for a different discussion. For the purposes of this discussion, WE ARE NOT GOING TO TOUCH ENGINES, just everything else that isn't FF/Endo fixed locations.

How do you "NOT TOUCH ENGINES" if you're getting rid of the fixed base chassis construction rules, though?

Who decides what is and isn't fixed? Right now the TT canon does, which is a source no one can really burn in effigy and hurl insults and death threats at. If we unlock some-but-not-all stuff, then it would be Piranha who decides what is and isn't fixed, no? And those guys, this miserable lot of scoundrels, scallywags and ne'er-do-wells will scourge to the bone to get what they want. Don't we have enough things to snarl at PGI over without handing them the keys to Make The Wrong Decisions where Clan base chassis lockouts go?

And don't even suggest to me that the players are a good source to go to in order to figure out what's hardlocked and what isn't. You and I both know better, man. This is just a super-nasty-bad precedent to make in the first place.

[Deathlike]

1453 R, on 18 September 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

How do you "NOT TOUCH ENGINES" if you're getting rid of the fixed base chassis construction rules, though?

Who decides what is and isn't fixed? Right now the TT canon does, which is a source no one can really burn in effigy and hurl insults and death threats at. If we unlock some-but-not-all stuff, then it would be Piranha who decides what is and isn't fixed, no? And those guys, this miserable lot of scoundrels, scallywags and ne'er-do-wells will scourge to the bone to get what they want. Don't we have enough things to snarl at PGI over without handing them the keys to Make The Wrong Decisions where Clan base chassis lockouts go?

And don't even suggest to me that the players are a good source to go to in order to figure out what's hardlocked and what isn't. You and I both know better, man. This is just a super-nasty-bad precedent to make in the first place.

I'll just quote something worthwhile as the answer.

Quote

For balance, corerule ignore.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 September 2014 - 02:52 PM.

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 18 September 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

How do you "NOT TOUCH ENGINES" if you're getting rid of the fixed base chassis construction rules, though?

Who decides what is and isn't fixed? Right now the TT canon does, which is a source no one can really burn in effigy and hurl insults and death threats at. If we unlock some-but-not-all stuff, then it would be Piranha who decides what is and isn't fixed, no? And those guys, this miserable lot of scoundrels, scallywags and ne'er-do-wells will scourge to the bone to get what they want. Don't we have enough things to snarl at PGI over without handing them the keys to Make The Wrong Decisions where Clan base chassis lockouts go?

And don't even suggest to me that the players are a good source to go to in order to figure out what's hardlocked and what isn't. You and I both know better, man. This is just a super-nasty-bad precedent to make in the first place.

I suppose you can't see the difference between an essential piece of equipment to function and which the mech is built around, and piece of equipment that are hard to remove.

Mech by mech basis, the bad ones can get buffs from more tonnage, or perhaps change those 1.4s to 2.0s.

There are varying degrees of unlocking; being able to remove out a single ton isn't the same as removing 30 tons of equipment.


But you seem convinced of your ideas, and we won't sway your opinion.

Edited by Mcgral18, 18 September 2014 - 02:33 PM.

[InspectorG]

I wanted a Ms. Lynx so bad, but im a little disenfranchised.
Slower than the medium...

Fixed probe...

But you dont know till you actually play it.

6JJ seems a bit much considering my lights rarely run more than 2JJ.

Now, if the thing handles quicker than a Commando...THAT would be nice to work with.
4 erml slower TDK but with a 28 damage alpha? I can do that.

ersl/erml + srm, i can do that too.

As far as the fixed Probe, well, there is:

Quirks to mod it.

Modules to mod it, ala Narc buff.

I could see fixed Probes getting some nice buffs to make them worthwhile.

Faster target info combo-able with a T comp...

35% sensor range expansion...

Detect shutdown mechs out to a useful distance...

360 target retention AS A QUIRK!!!

Detect mechs, within range, not in LOS

Wait for it...
Wait...

Soft Counter to ECM, somehow.

This would make the LRM-boaters(ugh) beg you to use the fixed probe mechs.

We are gonna see more ECM with the ECM being introduced to 2 of the NEW SHINY clan mechs, SPECIALLY with its intro to the heavy class.
Thats now ECM available to each of the 3/3/3/3, and with 3/3 new shiny ECM on top of the common DDC, Kfoxes, Ravens, Spiders, with the occasional Commando and Cicada, I would say in Puglandia, 3 ecm per team on average seems about right.

Thats a lot of ninja.

BUY A SEISMIC NOW

Just how many Lynx and Loki will run WITHOUT ECM during the next few weeks until the new is not as shiny???
In my Puglandia forays, most Kitfox bring the magic of Jesus, the odd LRM-D(ugh) and the SRM24 sophisticates being the exceptions...

Probes should provide some counter or this is gonna be Mech Ninja Online.
LuRMers will QQry, Streakers will keep it in their pants. UAV will be Gold Virgin Supreme for 40k a throw.
No one will use the radar, because: pointless

[1453 R]

Mcgral18, on 18 September 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

I suppose you can't see the difference between an essential piece of equipment to function and which the mech is built around, and piece of equipment that are hard to remove.

Mech by mech basis, the bad ones can get buffs from more tonnage, or perhaps change those 1.4s to 2.0s.

There are varying degrees of unlocking; being able to remove out a single ton isn't the same as removing 30 tons of equipment.


But you seem convinced of your ideas, and we won't sway your opinion.

More like I see an incredibly dangerous precedent being shouted for from the rooftops when there are other measures that might be taken which don't throw open Pandora's Box.

Who knows? The Mist Lynx might actually end up being serviceable, even within its limitations. None of you folks have ever piloted it, you can't really know yet. The prognosis isn't good, no, but until the 16th of Chrismonth we can't say for certain. It could be that quirk passes on the bad Clan 'Mechs as well as the entirety of the IS side could go a goodly ways towards shoring up weaker performers.

Who can say? What I can say is that breaking a fundamental rule of Omni construction, however much you limit that break, however much you hedge it around with exceptions and secondary restrictions, is a genie you won't be able to get back in the bottle. Break it once, for one 'Mech, and we have a lot of potential for a gigantic scheiss-storm of nonsense with everyone on the forums screaming and hollering about why their idea for fixing a Bad Clan 'Mech deserves to be made into a Special Exemption, too.

[LT. HARDCASE]

TygerLily, on 18 September 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

The ECM arm's a must...the best other arm is two Missile, one Energy. That's going to be the "go-to"...

I will say this, ECM + BAP + Adv. Sensor Range means you're seeing stuff out to 1000 meters. Like a little, permanent UAV. Give it a NARC and use the other missile and energy for a TAG or maybe a laser and missile loadout...seems like a nice little LRM helper!

I run Narc and one ML on my Commando but having JJ's and a little more firepower would be nice! Even if it's a lot slower...almost like its...a trade off...hmm...

Didn't they stop the AP and Adv. Sensor module from stacking the range bonus?

[Deathlike]

Kevjack, on 18 September 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Didn't they stop the AP and Adv. Sensor module from stacking the range bonus?

???

BAP+Adv Sensor intentionally can be stacked for a max radar detection range of 1200m.

[Kain Demos]

I don't get the whole jump jet issue.

Some people (like me) think they aren't very useful in this game on the bigger mechs and don't use them at all. People who follow this line of thinking ask why are JJs fixed on certain mechs because they wish to dump them for more equipment.

Then you have the JJs are OP crowd. These are the people that cry fowl that the TBR-S exists and got the Victor nerfed. If JJs are such a huge advantage why do so many people **** on the Summoner and wish they could remove them from the Nova?

[Deathlike]

Kain Thul, on 18 September 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

I don't get the whole jump jet issue.

Some people (like me) think they aren't very useful in this game on the bigger mechs and don't use them at all. People who follow this line of thinking ask why are JJs fixed on certain mechs because they wish to dump them for more equipment.

Then you have the JJs are OP crowd. These are the people that cry fowl that the TBR-S exists and got the Victor nerfed. If JJs are such a huge advantage why do so many people **** on the Summoner and wish they could remove them from the Nova?

It's obvious. People use the bare minimum that they can get away with. The difference is two-fold...

1) By making JJs not useful when using more JJs on your mech (aka Hoverjets™), it's tonnage wasted that could be used for something else.

2) Hardwiring the JJs on the affected clan mechs (Nova+Summoner) makes tonnage is permanently lost/unusable. Spending at least 3 tons more than necessary for a Summoner could have been put to better use for sure.

There isn't much jump sniping as there was before, but there are various related issues that caused that to happen (PPC projectile speed reduction is the main one).

Regardless of what you think of JJs, they are still very useful for getting where you want to go, but not useful for anything other than "hovering".

Edited by Deathlike, 18 September 2014 - 05:09 PM.

[ApolloKaras]

1453 R, on 18 September 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

More like I see an incredibly dangerous precedent being shouted for from the rooftops when there are other measures that might be taken which don't throw open Pandora's Box.

....

I dunno how much clearer we can make it.

1) The equipment we are referring to are: Any hard point bearing equipment (Energy weapons, Ballistic, Missiles, Ams), JJ's and in this one Case (Koshi) the BAP.

2) No one here is referring to Ferro, Endo, XL engines, or Double Heat sinks.

3) Allow these Clan mechs to be able to remove the almost worthless jj's.

4) If #3 can't happen, and since we're so rule hard core, the following Pods should have the JJ(s) fixed: Kit Fox S Legs 2x JJ each, Kit Fox S Side Torsos 1x JJ each, Timberwolf S side Torso's 2x JJ each, Timber S CT 1x JJ. Otherwise allow the same flexibility these two chassis have to the other mechs.

At least attempt to balance these mechs. I play light mechs specifically in organized play and some pugs, I'm looking at the Koshi and I cannot figure out why anyone would bring it. There are many other options out there for you in the light category. I just looked at all my light mechs and only one runs BAP, which I have since removed for an AMS and a ton of ammo because now I have a toggle for it.

EDIT: Spelling

Edited by Saxie, 18 September 2014 - 06:56 PM.

[Fire and Salt]

I find it quite odd that people are lamenting fixed JJs after the JJ Nerf.

Before the jj nerf, you only needed 1-3 jjs but now you need 2-5 to get a worthwhile jump.

IMO, the JJ Nerf helps mech with fixed jump jets, because they tend to carry a quantity of jump jets that seemed excessive pre-nerf, but seems more justifiable now.


Ex: I have a timberwolf with 5 jjs on it. I would never have considered that pre-nerf.
If the summoner had removable jjs, it is plausable that I would willingly equip 5 jjs, just because you need that many to be able to jump snipe.




Fixed equipment is still a bummer, though.

There is no advantage to fixed equipment over pod mounted, so it seems like an illogical design choice on the part of the manufacturer.

I was reading about coolant pods awhile back, maybe it was on sarna, not sure... Anyways, it said that coolant pods would damage the fragile pod mounted heat sinks on omni mechs.

This got me thinking:
(Almost) All IS components have 10 health.
What if all pod mounted clan equipment had 8, and all fixed equipment had 12?
It would make the warhawk designers seem less crazy, IMO because there is at least some up-side.




As for the koshi head BAP - well, extra health is a moot point there. I would like to see extra health universally applied, though.

However, some omni pods have quirks. Ex: the summoner primes single hard point arm pods have a cool down buff of 10%.

What if the koshi head component had some quirks?

Ex:
Prime: 10% more sensor range, 15% faster target info
B: 20% more sensor range
C: 30% faster target info

While you would be stuck with the active probe, you would at least get a little extra bang for your buck.