121 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Do all Mist Lynx variants have a active probe in their cockpit? Because the cockpit omnipod can be switched between variants, right?

[ApolloKaras]

Alistair Winter, on 18 September 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Do all Mist Lynx variants have a active probe in their cockpit? Because the cockpit omnipod can be switched between variants, right?

All variants have a Bap, in MWO and TT.

Edited by Saxie, 18 September 2014 - 11:32 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roadkill, on 18 September 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

The base config for all Omnimechs is the Prime. The others (A, B, S, whatever) are variants of the Prime config.

The Kit Fox's base config (the Kit Fox Prime) does not have jump jets, so from that you can infer that the Kit Fox S's jump jets are not hardwired but rather are omnipod (read: replaceable) jump jets.

No true. Prime is just the most common weapon loadout. The "Base" mech is the barebones, with the fixed JJs, BAP or Flamer, like the Adder. A Prime could mount JJs, but if it is not on the Base WireDoll, they are not fixed. Hence the reason they give the Crit Breakdown, then the variants.

[TygerLily]

Strum Wealh, on 18 September 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

The AP is part of the "base configuration", which (as 1453R explained here) is NOT the same thing as the "prime configuration".

Mcgral18, on 18 September 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

As stated above, hardwired on all the chassis'.

I get it ya'll! Saxie set me straight...I was confusing it with the Ice Ferret which has a single variant with an AP locked in to the CT.

[Strum Wealh]

Roadkill, on 18 September 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

The base config for all Omnimechs is the Prime. The others (A, B, S, whatever) are variants of the Prime config.

The Kit Fox's base config (the Kit Fox Prime) does not have jump jets, so from that you can infer that the Kit Fox S's jump jets are not hardwired but rather are omnipod (read: replaceable) jump jets.

No, it's not.

The base configuration is the one that lists just the base equipment (which is fixed into the chassis) & structural elements, and is the one from which all other configurations - including the Prime configuration - are built.

[1453 R]

Let me put it to you this way then, folks.

If you want the Missed Lynx to be able to switch out its Active Probe...then you'd best be prepared for the Timber Wolf to be able to strip down to a C-300XL and rearrange its fixed ES/FF structure slots in order to pack dual Gauss and C-ERPPC. Or, in short, to be every bit as flexible in its basic construction as an Inner Sphere 'Mech but still benefitting from the advantages of the Omnipod system.

The hard-locked fixed construction of an OmniMech is a crucial balancing aspect of the game, and one of the few things keeping the Timber Wolf from taking over the world. If you throw it away for the Missed Lynx because it bothers you there, you have no right to yell when they throw it away on the Timber Wolf, too. The construction rules are there for a reason, it's part of what makes the Clans a different tech base and playstyle than the Inner Sphere, and if the Missed Lynx ends up an average-tier light because of it? Oh well. Both sides get duds, and frankly the Missed Lynx will finds its niches anyways.

It's better than the alternative, which would be terrible for both balance and flavor.

[Mcgral18]

TygerLily, on 18 September 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

I get it ya'll! Saxie set me straight...I was confusing it with the Ice Ferret which has a single variant with an AP locked in to the CT.

Another mech I'm sad about, they left out the B left arm, which was 1M 1E, so now the Prime can't mount 3 SRM6+ERML, you need to swap out the CT...


That's for another thread, though. Many omnipods seem to have been purposely avoided.

1453 R, on 18 September 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Let me put it to you this way then, folks.

If you want the Missed Lynx to be able to switch out its Active Probe...then you'd best be prepared for the Timber Wolf to be able to strip down to a C-300XL and rearrange its fixed ES/FF structure slots in order to pack dual Gauss and C-ERPPC. Or, in short, to be every bit as flexible in its basic construction as an Inner Sphere 'Mech but still benefitting from the advantages of the Omnipod system.

The hard-locked fixed construction of an OmniMech is a crucial balancing aspect of the game, and one of the few things keeping the Timber Wolf from taking over the world. If you throw it away for the Missed Lynx because it bothers you there, you have no right to yell when they throw it away on the Timber Wolf, too. The construction rules are there for a reason, it's part of what makes the Clans a different tech base and playstyle than the Inner Sphere, and if the Missed Lynx ends up an average-tier light because of it? Oh well. Both sides get duds, and frankly the Missed Lynx will finds its niches anyways.

It's better than the alternative, which would be terrible for both balance and flavor.

Not quite the same thing. An XL375 can be useful. An AP, not so much. It's gimping the chassis, stacked onto the 3 tons of JJs, 3 gimped 1.4 DHS, and being a 25 tonner.


Someone else want to ask him on Twitter? I never got a response.

[Deathlike]

There's something else to consider... ECM.

Without debating ECM that much, just consider that the BAP+ECM combo is somewhat neutered in the countering ability (it falls on ECM to Counter, not BAP).

What should be happening is some sort of innate buff the the hardwired BAP (same goes with the hardwired Flamer on the Adder) to make it useful. Hopefully it would something related to role warfare... or whatever.

I'm going through the omnipod hardpoints and I'm cringing at what you could build on it... the ECM is on the Left Arm (like the Kitfox-C's Right Arm) with the AMS, and the attacking arm is solely the Right Arm, with the best combos involving the 2E Koshi-C variant and the 2M, 1E Koshi-B variant.

There's not too much you will be doing with 6 tons of weaponry... you might be able to shave armor or something to get like CERPPC/CLPL+CERMED on the build... that's about it.

That 1 ton for BAP looks bad when you take a serious look at it.

Edit:
You could forgo the ECM arm, but at that point, you'd make it like the Kitfox w/o ECM... but here you do have more speed to work with... instead of running @ the speed of a medium.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 September 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[1453 R]

Mcgral18, on 18 September 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Not quite the same thing. An XL375 can be useful. An AP, not so much. It's gimping the chassis, stacked onto the 3 tons of JJs, 3 gimped 1.4 DHS, and being a 25 tonner.


Someone else want to ask him on Twitter? I never got a response.

The point is that if you want to break the rules for the Missed Lynx, you sorta kinda give up all right to complain if the Timber Wolf starts breaking the same rules. Or the Stormcrow, or the Dire Wolf, or the [Insert Good Omnimech Here]. Those rules just up and lose all meaning or impact once they're applied selectively for the sake of convenience instead of being a hard-coded drawback of the entire technology base. If you want to see what a Timber Wolf can do with no extraneous engine-mounted DHS, dynamic structural upgrade crits, and forty-plus tons of gun space? Want to see Dire Whales chugging around with Endo and a 350XL and no longer less maneuverable than underground bunkers, or Warhawks with a less ridiculously stupid number of fixed heat sinks and Endo Steel making room for dual heavy ballistics with assault-level armor going heavy-level speeds...

G'head - keep pushing to take that active probe off the Mist Lynx.

[ApolloKaras]

1453 R, on 18 September 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

The point is that if you want to break the rules for the Missed Lynx, you sorta kinda give up all right to complain if the Timber Wolf starts breaking the same rules. Or the Stormcrow, or the Dire Wolf, or the [Insert Good Omnimech Here]. Those rules just up and lose all meaning or impact once they're applied selectively for the sake of convenience instead of being a hard-coded drawback of the entire technology base. If you want to see what a Timber Wolf can do with no extraneous engine-mounted DHS, dynamic structural upgrade crits, and forty-plus tons of gun space? Want to see Dire Whales chugging around with Endo and a 350XL and no longer less maneuverable than underground bunkers, or Warhawks with a less ridiculously stupid number of fixed heat sinks and Endo Steel making room for dual heavy ballistics with assault-level armor going heavy-level speeds...

G'head - keep pushing to take that active probe off the Mist Lynx.

No one is asking to remove all the crits. Its a common problem across the 2 least used Clan mechs. After the Stormcrow and Timberwolf come out for Cbills you will not see a Nova or a Summoner going forward. The issue is the Fixed jj's that are just taking up space. Either have all the clan mechs play by the same rules, when you equip a Timber S side torso you automatically get 2 JJ's fixed. Same can be said about waste of a half a ton flamer on the Adder.

Also we're not talking about Engines... good grief way to take that argument in left field

Edited by Saxie, 18 September 2014 - 12:09 PM.

[Deathlike]

I'm forgetting that if ECM is equipped, you have 4.5 tons left... which is only good for a pair CMPL wub with a targeting comp if you can shave that tonnage somewhere...

Plus, the best non-ECM combination (well, IMO, with the 2E on both arms) ends up creating a strangely expensive version of the The Death Knell that isn't as fast but can hover...

I'm struggling to find good combos with the 1E, 2B right arm to go with the ECM left arm... I'm already thinking 1 CERMED + 2 CSRM4/CSSRM2 with 1.5 (or slightly more) ton of ammo...

It's going to lack in diversity in builds for sure.

Edit: Added hovering comment and other theorymeching ideas.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 September 2014 - 12:35 PM.

[Anassi]

There's lots of worse things they could hard code in than an Active Probe *cough*Adder Flamer*cough*. The cAP is actually usefull.

[1453 R]

Saxie, on 18 September 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

No one is asking to remove all the crits. Its a common problem across the 2 least used Clan mechs. After the Stormcrow and Timberwolf come out for Cbills you will not see a Nova or a Summoner going forward. The issue is the Fixed jj's that are just taking up space. Either have all the clan mechs play by the same rules, when you equip a Timber S side torso you automatically get 2 JJ's fixed. Same can be said about waste of a half a ton flamer on the Adder.

Also we're not talking about Engines... good grief way to take that argument in left field

You're asking Piranha to discard the hard-locked base configuration rules for OmniMechs. You may be asking for it because of the Summoner and the Nova, and the poor Missed Lynx here, but make no mistake - that is what you're asking.

If Piranha makes an exception and says "The basic fundamental rules of OmniMech construction are getting in the way of these particular chassis being awesome? All right, sure thing, let me just smudge those rules here for you", then neither they, nor YOU, have any leg to stand on when people make the same request for the same reason for a different 'Mech.

To many players, the Timber Wolf's enormous engine, five 'extra' hard-locked heatsinks, and the disadvantageous distribution of its endo and ferro crit slots are really getting in the way of that 'Mech being awesome. If you break Omni construction rules for the red-headed stepchildren, tell people they can rip the Probe out of the Mist Lynx and take ALL DA JUMPJETS off the Lynx, the Summoner, and the Nova because hey! those things just get in the way!, then you have to be prepared to apply the new Omni construction rules consistently across the remaining OmniMechs.

This is a can of radioactive worms you do not want to open. No, you can't devote half of the Mist Lynx's tonnage to weaponry, or half of the Summoner's tonnage, or the Nova's tonnage, or anything-else's tonnage except for the Dire Whale, the way you can with Inner Sphere machines. If that fact really, truly bothers you, and you just can't tolerate not being able to gut the 'Mech and then stuff it with twelve tons of battle equipment...go play the Inner Sphere side.

Or grab a Kit Fox, which can carry ECM and does have the option of devoting (more than) half its weight to weaponry and ammunition!

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 18 September 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

You're asking Piranha to discard the hard-locked base configuration rules for OmniMechs. You may be asking for it because of the Summoner and the Nova, and the poor Missed Lynx here, but make no mistake - that is what you're asking.

If Piranha makes an exception and says "The basic fundamental rules of OmniMech construction are getting in the way of these particular chassis being awesome? All right, sure thing, let me just smudge those rules here for you", then neither they, nor YOU, have any leg to stand on when people make the same request for the same reason for a different 'Mech.

To many players, the Timber Wolf's enormous engine, five 'extra' hard-locked heatsinks, and the disadvantageous distribution of its endo and ferro crit slots are really getting in the way of that 'Mech being awesome. If you break Omni construction rules for the red-headed stepchildren, tell people they can rip the Probe out of the Mist Lynx and take ALL DA JUMPJETS off the Lynx, the Summoner, and the Nova because hey! those things just get in the way!, then you have to be prepared to apply the new Omni construction rules consistently across the remaining OmniMechs.

This is a can of radioactive worms you do not want to open. No, you can't devote half of the Mist Lynx's tonnage to weaponry, or half of the Summoner's tonnage, or the Nova's tonnage, or anything-else's tonnage except for the Dire Whale, the way you can with Inner Sphere machines. If that fact really, truly bothers you, and you just can't tolerate not being able to gut the 'Mech and then stuff it with twelve tons of battle equipment...go play the Inner Sphere side.

Or grab a Kit Fox, which can carry ECM and does have the option of devoting (more than) half its weight to weaponry and ammunition!

So, you're fine with leaving the garbage variants garbage, I see.


How do you intend to gimp the good ones, without further gimping the already gimped ones? See heat nerfs and HoverJets™.

Edited by Mcgral18, 18 September 2014 - 12:51 PM.

[ApolloKaras]

1453 R, on 18 September 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

You're asking Piranha to discard the hard-locked base configuration rules for OmniMechs. You may be asking for it because of the Summoner and the Nova, and the poor Missed Lynx here, but make no mistake - that is what you're asking.

If Piranha makes an exception and says "The basic fundamental rules of OmniMech construction are getting in the way of these particular chassis being awesome? All right, sure thing, let me just smudge those rules here for you", then neither they, nor YOU, have any leg to stand on when people make the same request for the same reason for a different 'Mech.

To many players, the Timber Wolf's enormous engine, five 'extra' hard-locked heatsinks, and the disadvantageous distribution of its endo and ferro crit slots are really getting in the way of that 'Mech being awesome. If you break Omni construction rules for the red-headed stepchildren, tell people they can rip the Probe out of the Mist Lynx and take ALL DA JUMPJETS off the Lynx, the Summoner, and the Nova because hey! those things just get in the way!, then you have to be prepared to apply the new Omni construction rules consistently across the remaining OmniMechs.

This is a can of radioactive worms you do not want to open. No, you can't devote half of the Mist Lynx's tonnage to weaponry, or half of the Summoner's tonnage, or the Nova's tonnage, or anything-else's tonnage except for the Dire Whale, the way you can with Inner Sphere machines. If that fact really, truly bothers you, and you just can't tolerate not being able to gut the 'Mech and then stuff it with twelve tons of battle equipment...go play the Inner Sphere side.

Or grab a Kit Fox, which can carry ECM and does have the option of devoting (more than) half its weight to weaponry and ammunition!

I dont mind if people rip the jj's off the Thor/Nova. See JJ nerf. Again there is no reason to bring a Thor over Timber, no reason for the Nova over the Crow. The reason being is what I'm arguing. This argument is about the JJ's and the active probe and the Flamer. What other variants do you have currently that have fixed equipment outside of Double heat sinks? There are 3 Variants currently the Adder, Summoner, and Nova. These are also oddly and ironically the step children of the clan field currently.

I see you side stepped one point. Why do you have flexibility with the Kit and the Timber that you don't have with the Summoner and Nova.

Edited by Saxie, 18 September 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[TygerLily]

Deathlike, on 18 September 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

same goes with the hardwired Flamer on the Adder) to make it useful. Hopefully it would something related to role warfare... or whatever.

Off topic but...we need trees and smoke to break LOS but not block fire (ie provide concealment and not cover). And flamers need to be able to set forests and buildings on fire as sources of smoke. Trees disappear after X ammount of time on fire so you can use the flamer to burn down your enemy's source of tree concealment.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I vote leave it. I think it is more than playable if hardwired and reinforces the support vibe of clan lights. IS have roleplayers and wolfpack lights, clans more support. I dig the distinction.

[Deathlike]

1453 R, on 18 September 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

To many players, the Timber Wolf's enormous engine, five 'extra' hard-locked heatsinks, and the disadvantageous distribution of its endo and ferro crit slots are really getting in the way of that 'Mech being awesome. If you break Omni construction rules for the red-headed stepchildren, tell people they can rip the Probe out of the Mist Lynx and take ALL DA JUMPJETS off the Lynx, the Summoner, and the Nova because hey! those things just get in the way!, then you have to be prepared to apply the new Omni construction rules consistently across the remaining OmniMechs.

TBH, the Timberwolf's engine is not a hindrance, considering it'll need that many DHS minimum to cool many of the builds it'll be using, especially with the prevalence of the CERMED. It might not have as much tonnage as people would like, but for the most part, it's more diverse than any other mech (or any heavy at minimum) in this game.

Even single time I read that "Timberwolf has a super engine" as a negative, I facepalm. This is vastly different than say the Gargoyle/Man O War.

Quote

Or grab a Kit Fox, which can carry ECM and does have the option of devoting (more than) half its weight to weaponry and ammunition!

Kitfox still suffers from being slow as a medium, functioning like a medium, but still having the armor of a Spider. By comparison, the Koshi suffers from being ultimately a slower (possibly worse) Commando that has JJs (Commando-2D-ish and TDK build variations can be made). I guess the only selling point is that Clan XL doesn't make it suck outright.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 September 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 18 September 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

TBH, the Timberwolf's engine is not a hindrance, considering it'll need that many DHS minimum to cool many of the builds it'll be using, especially with the prevalence of the CERMED. It might not have as much tonnage as people would like, but for the most part, it's more diverse than any other mech (or any heavy at minimum) in this game.

Even single time I read that "Timberwolf has a super engine" as a negative, I facepalm. This is vastly different than say the Gargoyle/Man O War.



Kitfox still suffers from being slow as a medium, functioning like a medium, but still having the armor of a Spider. By comparison, the Koshi suffers from being ultimately a slower (possibly worse) Commando that has JJs (Commando-2D-ish and TDK build variations can be made). I guess the only selling point is that Clan XL doesn't make it suck outright.

still missing the point.

Also, with 2 slot DHS, mounting a plethora of extra DHS is hardly an issue. Especially as it would open up significant non energy firepower, aka, low heat.

[Artgathan]

Mcgral18, on 18 September 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

So, you're fine with leaving the garbage variants garbage, I see.

There's a lot of mis-construing of 1453 R's arguments going around. What he is saying is this:

The rules must be applied consistently. If we bend the construction rules for a mech, people will rightly be able to ask "why not bend them for the rest?". PGI will not be able to answer "because they're the rules" because the rules will have been broken. You cannot selectively enforce rules.

I agree with 1453's assessment.

That said, I do think some quirks could help benefit some of the "under-performers". Heat quirks, armor boosts, refire rate decreases, whatever. Just not modifications to the construction rules.