268 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

It's multiple issues with the Timby.

First, it's got that issue with it's hitboxes going through some...interesting contortions when jumping, ones that can be easily abused simply by tapping the jets. That it's hitboxes are a bit off in general only makes this worse.

Second, the entire assignment-by-weight in a system with two different tech pools should have been scrapped. Just use a tier system like WoT and we wouldn't have been in this balance whinefest for months.

[Dark DeLaurel]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

He's named after a character from Robert Asprin. I liked the books and Phule sounded playfully sarcastic, so I played along.


GOTTA PROBLEM WITH THAT???

Lol I mean that cookie! sorry was trying to do shift change and type at the same time

[Lily from animove]

Iron Riding Cowboy, on 19 September 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

and this is why the 3/3/3/3 system is flawed. The light - assault is just a way to categorise the mechs when the system its based on is a scaling system.

nealry any sytsem si flaws by the way how balance amongst mechs is, especially the clanners.

because why? Lets imagine we would have tonnage restictions.

why taking a 5t ligher nova when the SC is way better for its efficiency/tonnage by the FF + Es it also has.
Or why the SMN and not the TW?

Clanners would then "save" these tonnage in the light section.

Adder isn't that awesome. Nor is kit fix. So i take the lynx as ECM provider and low tonnage mech. SO i make tonnage free to upgrade 3 Novas to 3 SC's and another lynx to upgrade 3 summoners to 3 TW's. And another kit fox to upgrade a Warhwak to a Direwolf. Oh wait, I now may probably not have 2 more Dirwolfs. Ok, let me "downgrade" a TW to a Mad Dog, so i cna use another Direwolf instead of a Warhawk. The Mad Dog is still hell of a good mech. And possibly better than the Summoner.

So maybe even 2 mad dogs, and for that the thrid direwolf.

And so you will see that when lookign at tonnages, CLanners will mostlikely avoid the adder, and kitfox, avoid the Nova and summoner because their efficiency/tonnage is bad.

fenris may have a purpose for beeing fast, lynx has a purpose for freeing tonnage for higher class mechs. And loki may also be an option to get a heavy not consuming much tonnage.

But thats it, with the upcoming other 2 heavies, compare loki, summoner, Tinberwolf and Mad Dog. Why would soemoen use a Summoner? The others are either better or on a tonnage based system the more efficient choices.

if we had big maps and if we had some serious advantages for JJ using emchs, then maybe Summoner may be a choice, but oh wait, we neither have these maps, and we have TBR S pods. No hes not. hes not a choice from nearly any point of view you try to apply. TW's hardpoint distribution is too strong. and its podspace too far above the Summoners ones to make it appealing.

strenght of the clans is their many hardpoints and quite decent medium laser. And this is what all heavy mechs can make use of: decent Missile or Ballistic weapons + some medium lasers assitance.

Summoner lacks this, because either Missiles OR Energy. and if you wanna go Ballistics, unlike the TW you can nto go big ballistics, because then you either stuff ammo in OR lasers. But for anythign else it doesn't have enough podspace. And laserboating alone doesn't works as good as in other heavy clanmechs because the Summoner doesn't even have that many Laser hardpoints. TW: 7 SMN: 4, MDD: 5 HBR: 7
No matter what you try in the summoner, you will always fidn another heavy clanmech (and especially with Wave 2), which can do this better or more weight efficient.
Removeable JJ's ES + FF will just reduce the rubbishnes of the SMN, because now some decent Ac + laser builds would be doable without suffering in ammo or heat issues.

so in what system would the Summoner vs the TBR be a chice? probably in one with propler BV like BV 2.0 maybe. But only may be.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 September 2014 - 04:37 AM.

[Haji1096]

clownwarlord, on 19 September 2014 - 12:38 AM, said:

TBR-PRIME

AS7-D-DC

These are similar builds only difference is 6 in the alpha, armor, and heat.

In no way are those builds similar. The Timber Wolf has a higher speed, 47 kph, more maneuverability, and better effective armor because of that maneuverability and advantageous hit boxes. The rear torso hitboxes are so small you can dump all that but 2 to 3 points of armor to the front, giving the Timber Wolf the survivability of an Atlas.

Just because you can make two numbers the same in smurfy doesn't mean the mechs are equivalent.

[Glythe]

I'm really not sore about the TW in any specific fight. But re-read the first thing I said in this thread. If you're too lazy basically one of the iconic ideals of this game was that no one mech would be the "do everything well" machine. As it stands right now the TW largely fits the bill.

The only thing I suggested to the TW itself were some armor tweaks.

The real problem is that anyone who's ever played a TW knows that there's nothing even close when it comes to an IS mech in the same weight class. As a TW you can go head to head with an IS assault mech and win. That's pretty broken. You don't have as much armor but you have way more speed (which helps mitigate a lot more damage), about the same number of weapons and generally better heat dissipation. This will lead to severe problems when community warfare comes out. As it stands right now the idea of quirks balancing the Clan/IS mech inbalance is absurd.

Imagine for a moment if you let everyone play some mystic beta with community warfare. Very quickly everyone will stop playing as IS mechs because there is no advantage.


If you weren't here for the 1st launch of the game then you have no idea what I'm talking about with the hunchback and centurion. These mechs used to go over 100kph and they broke the mold of the game (according to the devs). The TW is once again doing the same thing. But it also has enough guns/heat dissipation to outgun anything other than another clan heavy/assault. The old hunchback and centurion were very light on weapons and had to rely on damage avoidance and heat efficiency. The TW is not limited in nearly the same scope.

Most nerf threads start off with someone crying because they got violated. That's not what this thread is about. It's about the big picture. There's no reason to own any other heavy mech right now if you have a Timberwolf and that's just stupid. That's exactly the kind of design this game was trying to avoid.

Edited by Glythe, 19 September 2014 - 04:41 AM.

[Undercover Brother]

The irony here is that the only people complaining about the Timberwolf are the ones too cheap to pre-purchase it. Stop your whining. We all know y'all are going to line up to buy them with C-bills when that option is available. Granted, in a few days, when the Mad Dog comes out, I foresee that being the mech that everyone starts demanding to be NERFed. Just like when the Cataphract came out...or Yen-Lo-Wang...or the DDC Atlas with ECM...etc...

Why don't you just start screaming "PAY TO WIN!" instead?

[Joseph Mallan]

Please don't Nerf them. I am just starting to get the swing of actually fighting them.

[SubXulu]

Kiiyor, on 19 September 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

I have trouble hitting them when they're feathering JJ's. Maybe I'm imagining things.

I'm not sure how they can be nerfed, aside from mobility. I vote that we buff some IS mechs, because the IS is sorely missing some of it's own competition for the MadCat (*cough*VICTOR*cough)

You are not imagining the feathering JJ issue, lots of the high ELO players do this on purpose for this precise reason, its needs fixing.

[Tombstoner]

Nothing wrong with the TW. The 75 ton mechs sit on the exact optimum spot for speed per ton allocated and per ton saved from XL engines. So its going to be fast. then add in great hard point choices then mixes up strong indirect fire with strong direct fire and there you have it. a monster. armor difrencec between a 75 and a 100 ton is 2.5 tons or armor. not that much if you keep moving.

what needs to happen is all mech need a speed based armo cofactor.

[Jonny Taco]

Change the S to the D. Retain all hard points except the JJ.

[wanderer]

Quote

Why don't you just start screaming "PAY TO WIN!" instead?

No need to scream. At the moment, it's the truth- and yes, it's the best heavy in the game right now. You want the best, you pay real money or you don't pilot one. For months. Or they ubernerf it like a Dragon Slayer.

[Mawai]

Thorn Hallis, on 19 September 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

Why not buff the other 'Mechs?

The main issue with buffing other mechs is "time to kill". At the present time, mechs can die very quickly to focused fire. However, mechs are supposed to feel durable. Increasing the capability of other mechs to match the timberwolf will make mechs die faster which will be bad for the game unless they also increase armor.

Power creep can always be an issue with MMOs. Introducing clans is a prime example of power creep in a board game ... clans were better than IS in everything in TT ... TT was balanced using mechanisms not easily accessible to a 12 v 12 (or even 10 v 12) MMO real time arena shooter game. Even with the design changes put in place by PGI ... clans are still generally more powerful than the equivalent IS and the Timberwolf is probably at the peak of that imbalance since it is fast, heavily armored and heavily armed and has variants that can jump. It is a mech that can do almost everything well.

My guess is that if they want to balance the timberwolf it may be through the use of quirks ... reduction in torso twist range and speed, reduction in turn rate, reduction in acceleration/deceleration ... all of these will make it much more sluggish and reduce the effectiveness of the speed advantage while leaving the firepower in tact. It will become more challenging to use but not require across the board weapon changes that would impact the balance of other clan mechs. They did it with the Victor ... Timberwolf is likely on the list ...

[Richard Warts]

I don't think the Timberwolf needs a nerf. If it's possible to implement 10v12 then that could really help improve game balance. If not, and IS mechs are still getting crushed then perhaps instead of nerfing clan tech further, they could buff IS heat sink efficiency so that we could sustain our rate of fire a little longer.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mawai Mechs should die quick to focused fire, it is the reason TO focus fire.

[Hardin4188]

The problem with nerfing the Timber Wolf is that it is the coolest mech ever and to nerf it would be heretical. Do you want to be a heretic?!

[El Bandito]

Marmon Rzohr, on 19 September 2014 - 02:20 AM, said:

There is no point in nerfing hitboxes !

All the mechs should have good hitboxes, and if a mech stands out, then others should be buffed. It's simply not cool or fun to pilot a mech in which you think "oh well the enemy can shoot me wherever they like, no matter what I do". The game would be much more fun if all mechs had Centurion or Stalker level hitboxes. PGI seems to know this as all the Clans have solid to good hitboxes, and that is not a step that should be taken back.

Regarding mobility nerfs, I think a good starting point would be to lower the speed-tweaked speed to 81.

Apart from that, we'll have to wait and see how severe the Clan XL nerf is, IMHO.

Timbie hit-box is downright broken. It needs fixing cause right now it is tanking damage like crazy.

[wanderer]

It's not even nerfing hitboxes. They're great, don't get me wrong- and you could surely tweak them. It's what you can do to break them that's bad.

Tapping the jump jet key makes a Timby go into a spastic dance that gives it void shields and makes clean shots vanish into some kind of alternate dimension.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Well, apparently the plan is to give IS mechs a quirk pass, then adjust the Clan XL engine, and then you'll probably see them looking at individual Clan mechs.

The thing is, it is supposed to be one of the best Clan mechs. Now, I'm not saying that as a clans should be stronger argument. I'm saying it because anything you do to equipment will hurt everything else more than the Timber Wolf.

Specific adjustments to the Timber Wolf I would consider first are: Making the ability to equip jump jets at "set bonus." Say if you have all 3 S variant torso section then you can put on JJs and you can also add a negative quirk at the same level to adjust for that. I would also consider revisiting the hitboxes and maybe even consider putting some kind of ear on the mech even when the missile launchers are gone. Like the rack they would rest upon.

[Verdic Mckenna]

This all comes down to understanding your opponent. An issue that frequently occurs. I'm not arguing however that some of that armor could be shaven off. BUT! Were you targetting the TimberWolves left or right torso's just below the missile rack? Its a soft spot for most - and once gone half their armament tends to blow with it. This was tested in private matches over the course of 20 drops 1v1. It is most definitely a good way to take a TimberWolf down when facing one in a brawling situation.

Moonlander, on 19 September 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:

I recently posted something about this. I 1v1'd a Timberwolf not long ago. Only mech I came into contact with and I had no damage taken from any other sources. Just him an I in this particular location. Needless to say, I was destroyed. My damage done however, was 542... all to him mind you...

Something is definitely wrong with that picture. I should mention, I was in my DDC.

[Kushko]

I have a TBW and i dislike piloting it, i go against TBWs and i have no problem killing them (at least no more than any other decent mech/pilot).

Is it a good mech? Yah, its good at everything. Is it OP? Nah not really. Other underpowered mechs just need some quirk loving to bring them in line.