135 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

Why would they use a lighter version of the same chassis? What did I miss about the hardpoints?

lots

[MadTulip]

Agreed, the summoner is a lot weaker then the timberwolf(variable JJs) an most likely then the hellbringer(ECM). I consider the chasis to be one of the worst chassis of clan wave 1 which is sad as i like the shape and the history of the mech. I personaly didnt buy it but have a timberwolf and plan on getting the hellbringer for the ECM. ~70 tons is my prefered weight class.

Maybe the summoner could ... get enough torso twist to look right behind him and twist a little bit faster?

Guess the main points are that the fixed JJ are a problem because 5 JJ only have little more advantage then 1 JJ even if they would weight nothing and he has fewer hardpoints.

Edited by MadTulip, 19 September 2014 - 09:18 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Thanks. Still 5 tons less, less armor, I don't remember what is the Hellbringer's max Pod space? Summoners need more hard points.

Difference is we don't have Apods in game, so it will gain free tonnage in effect for not having these.
The prime comes with 26.5 tons of weapons equipped, which is plenty for a dual PPC ECM sniper, ERML/SRM ECM combo and plenty of armor.

Bishop Steiner, on 19 September 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

unless the hellbringer grew some JJs, gotta disagree with you.

People generally don't run more than 1-2 JJ's, the Summoners 5 unremovable are part of it's problem.
The hellbringer will still be superior.

[Wolfways]

I Zeratul I, on 19 September 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Blame canon BT lore.

The Thor is a decent mech. But maybe its also an example of how TT lore from a dice game doesn't translate perfectly to a fps game.

The lore is wrong sometimes & could use tweaking.

.

What makes it good in TT that is different in MWO?

[Empyrus]

DV McKenna, on 19 September 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

People generally don't run more than 1-2 JJ's, the Summoners 5 unremovable are part of it's problem.
The hellbringer will still be superior.

Because they're only used for turning boost, not for jumping due to them being underpowered. Boost them to allow actual rocket powered jumps and suddenly having many of them becomes useful.
(That said, the mech does need additional quirks (and Clan quirk pass is coming later on), and perhaps additional hardpoints.)

[Bishop Steiner]

DV McKenna, on 19 September 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Difference is we don't have Apods in game, so it will gain free tonnage in effect for not having these.
The prime comes with 26.5 tons of weapons equipped, which is plenty for a dual PPC ECM sniper, ERML/SRM ECM combo and plenty of armor.



People generally don't run more than 1-2 JJ's, the Summoners 5 unremovable are part of it's problem.
The hellbringer will still be superior.

love generalizations.

I admit, I am a BAD, but I kind of find bringing just enough JJS to bash my shins pointless.

On the other hand I use the Summoner a lot. Wish it got more vert, but the lift is far from useless. Perhaps "People" need to learn to broaden playstyles.

[Mothykins]

It needs a Jump Jet Boost.

It's a raider Mech; hit hard and get out. It should shine in the canyon, but it's... lacking.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wolfways, on 19 September 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

What makes it good in TT that is different in MWO?

well, for one thing, them JJs did allow 150 meter jumps. And you only needed half the ammo in TT. So 1v1, stock mechs (because unless you were a ristar, you only got to run them stock) in a duel? Many Summoners configs would even toast the Mighty Timberwolf.

Timberwolf though, always was the superior mech in the field.

[Wolfways]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 September 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

well, for one thing, them JJs did allow 150 meter jumps. And you only needed half the ammo in TT. So 1v1, stock mechs (because unless you were a ristar, you only got to run them stock) in a duel? Many Summoners configs would even toast the Mighty Timberwolf.

Timberwolf though, always was the superior mech in the field.

Ah okay thanks.

I kinda like the way JJ's are now, except i think that maybe they should use up the "fuel" a bit slower allowing mech a longer time in the air. At least that way my CPLT-C1 wouldn't have trouble getting up the sides of Canyon Network

Oh yeah, and real men (and women) pilot stock mechs

[Bishop Steiner]

Wolfways, on 19 September 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Ah okay thanks.

I kinda like the way JJ's are now, except i think that maybe they should use up the "fuel" a bit slower allowing mech a longer time in the air. At least that way my CPLT-C1 wouldn't have trouble getting up the sides of Canyon Network

Oh yeah, and real men (and women) pilot stock mechs

Agreed. The JJ nerf may have effectively finally broken the Poptart meta, but it was the wrong way to do it. Even the pudgy Highlander should be able to launch up those tiny canyons with ease.

Way they have JJs coded now, I have to wonder if an Urbanmech could even get enough lift to look an Atlas in the eye.

[SpiralFace]

The biggest fault of the Summoner is people run it expecting to run like a timber wolf. Which its not, and never should be.

Summoner is a raider. It has a much smaller profile, same speed, and has a very handy jumping ability that keeps it out of reach, and its still pretty much supperior to nearly every IS heavy out there.

The problem is the Timber wolf. It is VERY MUCH heads above all other heavy mechs out there. So its not that the Summoner needs a buff (as it is in line with all the other heavies in the game.) Its the Timberwolf that needs to be brought back down to earth with all the other heavy frames in the game.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Wolfways, on 19 September 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

What makes it good in TT that is different in MWO?

HONESTLY, I don't know.

A Thor should be weaker than a Timberwolf as its 5 tons lighter.

I s'pose it is the natural order of things.

The "forum logic" of criticizing the concept that a 70 ton Thor isn't as good as a 75 ton Timbewolf might not make much sense?

.

.

[Empyrus]

Wolfways, on 19 September 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Oh yeah, and real men (and women) pilot stock mechs

I pilot my Summoner Prime with its stock config. I couldn't figure anything else effective, and it gives a nice challenge. Beating a Dire Wolf alone with it has been my greatest moment so far (danced around it and a building while slowly wearing it down, unfortunately i got killed by LRMs and a Blackjack right after my victory).

[Khobai]

I dont think the Summoner is underpowered. The Summoner seems to stack up pretty good against 70 ton IS mechs.

The problem is the Timber Wolf is way overpowered.

Quote

The "forum logic" of criticizing the concept that a 70 ton Thor isn't as good as a 75 ton Timbewolf might not make much sense?

Except tonnage should have no bearing on how "good" a mech is.

A mech thats lighter should simply have different strengths than a mech thats heavier (i.e. faster, more agile, smaller profile, etc...). Equalizing weight classes is an integral part of role warfare, which is an aspect of this game thats unfortunately lacking.

Again the problem is the Timber Wolf gets a lot of strengths over the Summoner which it shouldnt have. The Timber Wolf S isnt penalized nearly enough for gaining jumpjets.

Edited by Khobai, 19 September 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Give the Thor (and Highlander) big jump jet bonuses.

[Russ Bullock]

DONTOR, on 19 September 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

Though I agree the SUMMONER is underpowered especially after the JJ nerfs, it doesnt really matter much because when the Hellbringer releases no one will use the SUMMONER ever again...

I like the summoner too much to let this happen, a full Clan Quirk pass is on the docket as soon as I get the IS one in the game.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 September 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

love generalizations.

I admit, I am a BAD, but I kind of find bringing just enough JJS to bash my shins pointless.

On the other hand I use the Summoner a lot. Wish it got more vert, but the lift is far from useless. Perhaps "People" need to learn to broaden playstyles.

I get around the maps where i want to be just fine on 1-2 JJ's (mostly 1). I have no reason in their current implementation to want more.

Against some of the better players in the game, the Summoner is a wasted slot and liability its only real current ok config is stacked SRM6's.

Perhaps it's less about people needing to broaden playstyles and more about people getting better albeit as you do the game becomes shallower *shrug*

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

Why would they use a lighter version of the same chassis? What did I miss about the hardpoints?

It has lots of hardpoints, and lots of extra tonnage. It loses nearly no armour for the 5 ton chassis difference, but it comes with 23.5 tons of pod space, or 25 if you strip one arm. The Summoner's 21 tons, which you can't strip because of hardpoint deficiency, can't compare.

That's before factoring in the Magic Jesus Box. It has one less hardwired DHS, and no JJs. It will be able to mount a side torso LB20x (or any 12 ton Dakka) with 4-6 ERMLs, 13-16 DHS and the Magic Jesus Box.


It will be far superior to the Summoner, until the G side torsos come out. 10 missile hardpoints is pretty hefty.

Edited by Mcgral18, 19 September 2014 - 09:40 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Russ Bullock, on 19 September 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

I like the summoner too much to let this happen, a full Clan Quirk pass is on the docket as soon as I get the IS one in the game.

This is excellent news, however the Summoners perks will have to be mightly good to get what you want.... that or fix JJ's.

[Bishop Steiner]

Russ Bullock, on 19 September 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

I like the summoner too much to let this happen, a full Clan Quirk pass is on the docket as soon as I get the IS one in the game.

Gonna hold you to that. Summoner is my favorite Non-Unseen mech.