22 replies to this topic

[Lefty Lucy]

We have a major problem with balance between Clan mechs:

Clan mechs that have endo and ferro built in (but especially endo) have a huge pod-space advantage over Clan mechs that do not.

I understand that it is "canon" customization rules that omnis' base equipment is locked to the chassis, but I also think that we're seeing the same problem in MWO that we saw in TT:

Without a BV system in place, there is no reason to ever choose a Summoner over a Timberwolf, unless you just like to be in a mech that is worse in every way.

IMO we should be able to equip Clan mechs with the 14-slot variants of Endo and Ferro, to represent the inefficiency of equipping these systems on mechs that are not built for them, but to also make it so that mechs like the Summoner, which are pod space and hard point deficient, can at least make up a bit of tonnage to take advantage of all the other efficient clan structural components.

[Monkey Lover]

I been asking for help for the pos summoner from the start. I dont see anything changing for the better any time soon if ever. I see them only getting worse.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 19 September 2014 - 10:46 AM.

[Ultimax]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

We have a major problem with balance between Clan mechs:

Clan mechs that have endo and ferro built in (but especially endo) have a huge pod-space advantage over Clan mechs that do not.

I understand that it is "canon" customization rules that omnis' base equipment is locked to the chassis, but I also think that we're seeing the same problem in MWO that we saw in TT:

Without a BV system in place, there is no reason to ever choose a Summoner over a Timberwolf, unless you just like to be in a mech that is worse in every way.

IMO we should be able to equip Clan mechs with the 14-slot variants of Endo and Ferro, to represent the inefficiency of equipping these systems on mechs that are not built for them, but to also make it so that mechs like the Summoner, which are pod space and hard point deficient, can at least make up a bit of tonnage to take advantage of all the other efficient clan structural components.

Why would already sub-optimal mechs like the SMN and NVA want to take even further sub-optimal choices like 14 slot Endo?


The WHK would love endo savings, but it is already starved for slots (26 to work with).

I'm not even sure if you could do much with a WHK and clan Endo, much less 14 slot endo.

Adding 14 slot endo, it would only have 12 slots to work with.


A SMN adding 14 slot endo would only have 21 slots to work with.



Without being able to remove FF, I don't think this would be a good option.

And some mechs, like the WHK, have issues with crit slots as it is, due to mandatory heatsinks.



I think the concept direction is OK, but I don't think this would actually help those particular mechs - and on the flipside the DWF swimming in crit slots would be able to add another 5 tons of firepower.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 September 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Ultimatum X, on 19 September 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Why would already sub-optimal mechs like the SMN and NVA want to take even further sub-optimal choices like 14 slot Endo?


The WHK would love endo savings, but it is already starved for slots (26 to work with).

I'm not even sure if you could do much with a WHK and clan Endo, much less 14 slot endo.


A SMN adding 14 slot endo would only have 21 slots to work with.



Without being able to remove FF, I don't think this would be a good option.

And some mechs, like the WHK, have issues with crit slots as it is, due to mandatory heatsinks.



I think the concept direction is OK, but I don't think this would actually help those particular mechs - and on the flipside the DWF swimming in crit slots would be able to add another 5 tons of firepower.

21 slots is plenty for energy and missile-heavy builds. The CERLL only takes 1 slot.

[Hoax415]

Any buff you give to the SMN means you now need to buff the CTF.

Any buff you give the NVA means you now need to buff the Treb, Cent and Hunch.

Buffing everything sounds great except when our biggest enemy is people dying too fast.

I realize that PGI does a horrible job of worrying about TTK as is -hello L5 weapon modules w/ zero drawback- but its still a concern.

Negative tweaks for the TBR and SCR to bring them into line with IS counterparts and lessen the gap with the SMN and NVA is a faster simpler change that won't make TTK any shorter. Won't insult the TT purists and won't result in having to figure out a buffs to a host of IS chassis as well.

Also the SMN w/ 14 point endo would still suck compared to the Mad Cat if we're using 35/55/75/100 team composition rules in CW.

We should really be addressing that fail 3/3/3/3 system before messing with the mechs or weapon values for the 500th time.

Edited by Hoax415, 19 September 2014 - 11:02 AM.

[Gierling]

Given that Clan mechs are already overpowered across the board, a better way of addressing this would be to disallow Endo/ferro on clan mechs entirely and just modify stock loadouts to work with the new reality.

[Asyres]

I'd actually prefer to see an aggressive quirk pass. Take the Summoner - if the majority of it's pods had quirks that improved it's performance, it'd probably be okay. The Summoner has limited pod space, sure, but it also suffers from limited hardpoints. Giving it 3.5t more to play with isn't going to magically make it awesome.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

O'kay,,, than give IS mixtech

[Mcgral18]

Gierling, on 19 September 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

Given that Clan mechs are already overpowered across the board, a better way of addressing this would be to disallow Endo/ferro on clan mechs entirely and just modify stock loadouts to work with the new reality.

Cute Fox, Badder, Nope-va, Suckoner, PeaceDove.

Across the board, you say?

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 19 September 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

O'kay,,, than give IS mixtech

IS ACs and PPCs on Clan mechs should be fun. Nova would love some low heat energy weapons.

[Ultimax]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

21 slots is plenty for energy and missile-heavy builds. The CERLL only takes 1 slot.

I'm not convinced.

LRMs require slots for ammo. CAP, TAG - and the launchers themselves.

You're right about CERLLAS, but 2 to 4 CERLLAS in the arms is a build you can run now.

It's not a good build imo because the SMN arms are low slung, the mech's hitboxes are big and CERLLAS force extended exposure to enemy fire.

[Quick n Fast]

don't blame the Summoner for being bad... blame ur self for givin t a bad build in the first place.. and playin it wrong..
why r u tryin to make it a front line brawler... whn its a mid range support mech..

also givin clans the choice to add endo or ff or both if they so choose.. will kill any balance pgi is tryin to make atm..

give clans more tonnage space to carry more weps..? not a very bright idea when u think about it..

oohhhh how I can hear the qq's now...

[Sarlic]

What about no? Man, people with these silly demands these last couple of weeks.

[Deathlike]

Since this thread exists, I have an idea, but it's nothing short of bad... but something I'd like to throw out there...

It should be allowed as an upgrade... Standard Structure -> Endo and Standard Armor -> Ferro... with an increased cost over the IS version due to obvious benefits... but how the "floating Endo/FF" functions will have vastly different rules...

By default, adding Endo or FF from a Standard Structure will enforce a special ruleset...

1) Both side torsos will gain 3 Endo "Floating Points" each, with the 1 left put into the Head, or CT (assuming either is free, CT Head being prioritized).

2) If the mech has that side arm's Lower Arm Actuator enabled, one of the Endo/FF floating hardpoints on that torso of the arm's side will move to the arm. So, if you enable the Left Lower Arm Actuator, the Left Torso will "lose" a Float Endo/FF crit. This also can be extended one more time if it has the Hand Actuator for mechs that have it. So at maximum, you can shave off 2 Floating Crit from each torso into the appropriate arm.

Primary Implications: A mech that you are intending to put a large weapon (usually ballistic) in the torso is hindered (convergence is minimized) if you are trying to put in on the same side (think ERPPC+CGAUSS in a side torso of the Summoner). Also, this limits how much DHS stuffing you can do on a mech when you put large weapons in the arms of a mech.

I do think this is far from perfect, and I have to think of variation for both Endo+FF for something like the Nova, but that's the basic idea.

Otherwise, I don't know what else to suggest.

Note: This is ONLY applicable to mechs that initially start with Standard Structure or Standard Armor... mechs that already have FF and Endo built in by design do not apply to my suggestion at all.

Edit: I meant to say Head Crit Slot vs CT crit slot loss priority.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 September 2014 - 12:17 PM.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 19 September 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Since this thread exists, I have an idea, but it's nothing short of bad... but something I'd like to throw out there...

It should be allowed as an upgrade... Standard Structure -> Endo and Standard Armor -> Ferro... with an increased cost over the IS version due to obvious benefits... but how the "floating Endo/FF" functions will have vastly different rules...

By default, adding Endo or FF from a Standard Structure will enforce a special ruleset...

1) Both side torsos will gain 3 Endo "Floating Points" each, with the 1 left put into the Head, or CT (assuming either is free, CT being prioritized).

2) If the mech has that side arm's Lower Arm Actuator enabled, one of the Endo/FF floating hardpoints on that torso of the arm's side will move to the arm. So, if you enable the Left Lower Arm Actuator, the Left Torso will "lose" a Float Endo/FF crit. This also can be extended one more time if it has the Hand Actuator for mechs that have it. So at maximum, you can shave off 2 Floating Crit from each torso into the appropriate arm.

Primary Implications: A mech that you are intending to put a large weapon (usually ballistic) in the torso is hindered (convergence is minimized) if you are trying to put in on the same side (think ERPPC+CGAUSS in a side torso of the Summoner). Also, this limits how much DHS stuffing you can do on a mech when you put large weapons in the arms of a mech.

I do think this is far from perfect, and I have to think of variation for both Endo+FF for something like the Nova, but that's the basic idea.

Otherwise, I don't know what else to suggest.

Note: This is ONLY applicable to mechs that initially start with Standard Structure or Standard Armor... mechs that already have FF and Endo built in by design do not apply to my suggestion at all.

I understand why you are going for this.

However, the issue is that the clan mechs that need Endo the most are already the more limited clan mechs.

Creating more restrictions for restricted mechs, does this really help them?


NVA: No Endo, no Ferro
SMN: No Endo
WHK: No Endo


These are the primary mechs that could really use endo. Do you think they need more restrictions than they already have?


(The list might also include Hellbringer, Mad Dog & Gargoyle - but it's hard to make concrete comments on them at this time).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 September 2014 - 12:05 PM.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 19 September 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

I understand why you are going for this.

However, the issue is that the clan mechs that need Endo the most are already the more limited clan mechs.

Creating more restrictions for restricted mechs, does this really help them?


NVA: No Endo, no Ferro
SMN: No Endo
WHK: No Endo


These are the primary mechs that could really use endo. Do you think they need more restrictions than they already have?


(The list might also include Hellbringer, Mad Dog & Gargoyle - but it's hard to make concrete comments on them at this time).

The only reason for it is simply because then it changes the status that mechs with "Standard" Structure or Armor will be more preferable to its Fixed FF/Endo constituents. Anything that gives people silly ammo of saying "Clan Mechs are more flexible than IS" would have a sliver of credibility. Floating FF/Endo crits is really a nice feature for IS (well, minus the 14 crit slots each).

This is the only fair compromise that I can think of that doesn't really hurt both sides.

The Nova will benefit anyways and the Summoner won't have the "optimal" CERPPC+CGauss platform, but the Warhawk won't benefit from its limited hardpoints that would probably be dedicated for more DHS or ammo inevitably.. since it has fixed FF which is "more harmful" than the benefits of Endo.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 September 2014 - 12:11 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Kahnawake MechMaster Prime, on 19 September 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

don't blame the Summoner for being bad... blame ur self for givin t a bad build in the first place.. and playin it wrong..
why r u tryin to make it a front line brawler... whn its a mid range support mech..

we all know it can be a pos lrm mech or a dual ppc sniping mech but that is all it can be. Almost every mech in the game can do the same thing.

[Warblood]

Just use it as lrm defender or backup/support mech:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...49f653957c7acce

[VtTimber]

Make jumpjets fixed on a mech. Make fixed jump jets much better than pod jump jets.

Victors, Highlanders, Shadowhawks, Summoners, Novas, etc... none can remove jump jets but those jump jets are actually worth it now.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 19 September 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

and the Summoner won't have the "optimal" CERPPC+CGauss platform, but the Warhawk won't benefit from its limited hardpoints that would probably be dedicated for more DHS or ammo inevitably.. since it has fixed FF which is "more harmful" than the benefits of Endo.

The Summoner at best would still run only 1 CERPPC with 1 CGauss.

It already loses arm actuators no matter how you combo that.

Preventing it from taking one of the few decent builds it can already run kind of misses the point of what the mech needs.


I don't even think the WHK would work under that special rules set, because everything in the entire LT is already fixed - some of it's energy/M arms don't even get the option for lower arm actuators.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 19 September 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

The Summoner at best would still run only 1 CERPPC with 1 CGauss.

It already loses arm actuators no matter how you combo that.

Preventing it from taking one of the few decent builds it can already run kind of misses the point of what the mech needs.

The rule has more to do with CGauss in the side torso than the CERPPC. 6 crits is the least hard to get at with Clan Tech in terms of large ballistics.

Quote

I don't even think the WHK would work under that special rules set, because everything in the entire LT is already fixed - some of it's energy/M arms don't even get the option for lower arm actuators.

I thought about that, and it would transfer it to the LA, nerfing it further than it would ever need/want to.

Noone said tradeoffs would be fair... unless you want more convos about Clans being more superior because of their builds (there is already some truth to it as it is).