268 replies to this topic

[PowerKill Necron]

VX Seraphin, on 23 June 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

i miss my laser boat puma....

2 ER PPC Puma is what I ran in MW4... small, fast and could kill you at extreme range. It was my light of choice in that game.

And to the OP: NO FRICKEN WAY! The mech lab is easily going to be one of the prime ways that MWO will make money. Limited mech slots, and fixed hardpoints mean people are going to have to buy more slots for more mechs to get different configurations. Limiting the mechlab you might as well go play Mechassault or some other crap. I want to tinker and tinker and tinker some more.

Edited by PKNecron, 23 June 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[Mechxican JAKE]

Haha

[Phasics]

How else can we loadup an Atlas torso with 6 of the biggest lasers it can fit and run around the field screaming I'MA FIRIN MA LAZOR BLAAARARRRGGGGGGG

[Biglead]

^ AMIRITE?!?!?

*For the few who don't understand, just click my sig.

Edited by Biglead, 23 June 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

What we have available should be optional to the faction/unit we sign up with. If you are Wilson's Hussars you need to have to pay just to have a cored Mech. But If you are in Wolf's Dragoons you have access to the best mechlab money can buy! Also faction needs to dictate the mods a bit. House Marik doesn't have a large supply of PPCs so those playing for the Purple Lord need to have trouble getting those Partikill cannons!

[Kael Tropheus]

I love the "I want to customize munchkins versus the vets" argument. Personally I am totally against the mech lab except incredibly minor changes. Nothing else is in cannon nor should it be in the game. There are plenty enough stock mechs out there to suit the boaters. Perhaps a good compromise is to have two servers, one for munchkins and whiners who like unbalanced custom mechs, and one for the fans and vets of the BT universe which only have stock mechs and the oficial varients. It isnt really fair at all to force those that want the Battletech experience to deal with the custom kiddies on a regular basis, the matches will be very unbalanced with hyper efficient mechs on one side and stock mechs with intentional balancing flaws on the other.

[Phasics]

Kael Tropheus, on 23 June 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

I love the "I want to customize munchkins versus the vets" argument. Personally I am totally against the mech lab except incredibly minor changes. Nothing else is in cannon nor should it be in the game. There are plenty enough stock mechs out there to suit the boaters. Perhaps a good compromise is to have two servers, one for munchkins and whiners who like unbalanced custom mechs, and one for the fans and vets of the BT universe which only have stock mechs and the oficial varients. It isnt really fair at all to force those that want the Battletech experience to deal with the custom kiddies on a regular basis, the matches will be very unbalanced with hyper efficient mechs on one side and stock mechs with intentional balancing flaws on the other.

Split the player base ? ..... I'm going to go with No.

[Xperimentor]

O look, yet another 'we need more restrictions' page. I quickly grow tired of peoples' complaints, this is obviously a game for creative tacticians. Such restrictions would limit it to the point of just using the stock variants, and take the fun out of combat by making everything predictable. Besides, someone will find a way to exploit the system regardless of limitations, it's human nature and with enough time it would be inevitable. We may as well enjoy the extreme experiments people try out on the field.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kael Tropheus, on 23 June 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

I love the "I want to customize munchkins versus the vets" argument. Personally I am totally against the mech lab except incredibly minor changes. Nothing else is in cannon nor should it be in the game. There are plenty enough stock mechs out there to suit the boaters. Perhaps a good compromise is to have two servers, one for munchkins and whiners who like unbalanced custom mechs, and one for the fans and vets of the BT universe which only have stock mechs and the oficial varients. It isnt really fair at all to force those that want the Battletech experience to deal with the custom kiddies on a regular basis, the matches will be very unbalanced with hyper efficient mechs on one side and stock mechs with intentional balancing flaws on the other.

Not everyone's a boater. I normally scrap MGs since Infantry is not an issue for the forseeable future, I can always use 1.5 extra tons of armor. Battlemaster's didnt need 2 tons of SRM ammo till Artimis came to play. Small changes like those are more than fair game. Specially if the Mech is for a Merc unit.

[Kusak Snowtiger]

I think we all just need to wait and see what the dev's give us. Yup modification was the spice of life in the TT version if you had the creds. the tech's. The time and anothe ride while your's was down. ohhh and the access to the gantry shop to do the work. I Know my HGN-732. Spent more than enough time in the shop getting upgrades over the years of service. Yank those blasted mediums and give me some er med's please. when they came about. That old SRM 6 eventuanlly hit the floor with a clang and a spanking knew Streak SRM - 4 went in its place at one time. But if memory serves me correctly their was a stint of Streak SRM2 and a inferno 2 launcher for awhile before the Streak srm 4 went in. I think I spent as much time in my back up mech which was a Mad-5S as I did in my HGN. But that insanity only came along after I was well enough off as a mech warrior to afford to have a Assault as my prime ride and a Heavy as my backup.

Ive got faith in the Dev's. May take them awhile but ive seen enough commentary that many of them are loyal to the original game. And they are going to do their best to make it popular with everyone. They need to make money to pay for it. Im sure their will be things ill go what the heck. But in the end Im happy just to see the game return. Just to be able to play again. Just to be able to hear the thump of outgoing missiles once again in the BT world

Now someone twist the dev's arms. I want my HGN-732 Highlander. Get on with it NOW.

[wardeagz]

If anything, the mechlab needs to be even less restrictive than before.

One main restriction that have always gotten in my way is tonnage - I want to be able to slap on a few extra tons worth of equipment, but I would get a penalty on mobility (accel, decel, steering/torso, jump), say 5% slower per ton. Or, go the other way around and reduce the mech down 5 tonnes, to get extra mobility bonuses! Does that seem to far fetched?

[ScientificMethod]

HaWxDeagle, on 23 June 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

If anything, the mechlab needs to be even less restrictive than before.

One main restriction that have always gotten in my way is tonnage - I want to be able to slap on a few extra tons worth of equipment, but I would get a penalty on mobility (accel, decel, steering/torso, jump), say 5% slower per ton. Or, go the other way around and reduce the mech down 5 tonnes, to get extra mobility bonuses! Does that seem to far fetched?

5 tons in ammo, or weapons, or armor is still 5 tons. The mechs are built to go a certain speed at a certain weight. If anything going underweight should make you barely more maneuverable, although the smarter thing to do would be to upgrade your engine at that point. Going over tonnage simply wouldn't work because the frame can't handle the stress and looking at the game overall it adds an extra realm of balance issues.

Edited by ScientificMethod, 23 June 2012 - 05:21 PM.

[ScientificMethod]

Kael Tropheus, on 23 June 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

I love the "I want to customize munchkins versus the vets" argument. Personally I am totally against the mech lab except incredibly minor changes. Nothing else is in cannon nor should it be in the game. There are plenty enough stock mechs out there to suit the boaters. Perhaps a good compromise is to have two servers, one for munchkins and whiners who like unbalanced custom mechs, and one for the fans and vets of the BT universe which only have stock mechs and the oficial varients. It isnt really fair at all to force those that want the Battletech experience to deal with the custom kiddies on a regular basis, the matches will be very unbalanced with hyper efficient mechs on one side and stock mechs with intentional balancing flaws on the other.

As for you, where are you getting this idea that custom mechs aren't cannon or part of the battletech experience. Do you only have experience with mechassault or the other recent videogames? Having a custom mech doesn't mean the mech is unbalanced. It's just a way to adjust the mech to it's piloting style. Although since we don't get omni's the adjustments are relatively quite small. Two medium lasers and some extra heatsinks instead of a large laser, or an AC5 instead of an AC20.

Stock mechs really aren't that unbalanced in all honesty. Some are easier to play than others but generally if you keep them to the role they were intended for stock mechs do just as fine (ignoring piloting skill as a factor).

Edited by ScientificMethod, 23 June 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Not to mention in the old TROs there was entries for Mods for every Mech in them. Sure many were Faction mods but there were plenty of entries that mentioned "field refits".

[Kael Tropheus]

ScientificMethod, on 23 June 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

As for you, where are you getting this idea that custom mechs aren't cannon or part of the battletech experience. Do you only have experience with mechassault or the other recent videogames? Having a custom mech doesn't mean the mech is unbalanced. It's just a way to adjust the mech to it's piloting style. Although since we don't get omni's the adjustments are relatively quite small. Two medium lasers and some extra heatsinks instead of a large laser, or an AC5 instead of an AC20.

Stock mechs really aren't that unbalanced in all honesty. Some are easier to play than others but generally if you keep them to the role they were intended for stock mechs do just as fine (ignoring piloting skill as a factor).

Because with the exception of a very very few mechs customization was very rare and those that did have customized mechs typically had issues as well as the bonus. I have played Battletech for over 20 years, only once did we play a game that allowed customization, and I learned why I had only played in one group that allowed it. Custom mechs were horribly more effective and devastated the stock mechs. Since then NO group I have been in has allowed them. Stock mechs are purposely built with flaws for balance reasons. Usually in the fluff like in the TROs( I have every one up til the 3060s since no one I know likes the game after that point) the custom mechs are rarely more than a field varient which does a minor change like the fore mentioned small lasers in place of machine guns. Something that a field tech could probably do without a full blown engineering/design team and months in a repair bay.

[trycksh0t]

I think your going incredibly overboard with the restrictions. Here's my thoughts on the subject:

Leave the weapon hardpoint system as is, it sounds like it works fine.

Armor - Free to alter and swtich between standard and ferro fibrous. It's just welded onto the machine, not that difficult. A trained monkey could work on 'Mech armor.

Heatsinks - Freely add or subtract at will, but requires purchasing an engine upgrade (should be pretty expensive) to switch from singles to doubles (or have two engine categories, SHS compatible and DHS compatible).

Engines - Able to change ratings, but not able to switch from standard to XL. Maybe add an option to upgrade a chassis to be XL compatible for a price, but I haven't decided yet.

Internal Structure - No alteration allowed, period. Might as well allow for building 'Mechs from the ground up, becuase that is (essentially) what changing the Internal Structure requires.

[Phasics]

... or we could ...y'know....leave it as is till we actually play it

just sayin

[Ko Time]

Some people[including me] would be very happy the closeser they stay to CBT mech construction rules.

[ScientificMethod]

Kael Tropheus, on 23 June 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

Because with the exception of a very very few mechs customization was very rare and those that did have customized mechs typically had issues as well as the bonus. I have played Battletech for over 20 years, only once did we play a game that allowed customization, and I learned why I had only played in one group that allowed it. Custom mechs were horribly more effective and devastated the stock mechs. Since then NO group I have been in has allowed them. Stock mechs are purposely built with flaws for balance reasons. Usually in the fluff like in the TROs( I have every one up til the 3060s since no one I know likes the game after that point) the custom mechs are rarely more than a field varient which does a minor change like the fore mentioned small lasers in place of machine guns. Something that a field tech could probably do without a full blown engineering/design team and months in a repair bay.

How much customization did they allow? If you just slapped anything that would fit into the chassis I could easily see you having problems with boats and balance. I've had my experiences with that and they're only fun if you know things are going to end up ridiculously. I would enjoy hearing an explanation of how the current system of hardpoints, internal space, cost, weight, and heat management could be abused to create an unbalanced mech. We have lots of freedom with what we want the mech to do, but with the hardpoints; a missile boat will still be the best at slinging missiles, the hunchback still will probably have a ballistic weapon as its main gun, et cetera. Someone certainly could modify their catapult to have 3 or 4 lrm15's but the extra weight and space would have to come from somewhere. I believe that such a specialized mech will be essentially useless in organized lance play, or at least against any group of opponents that adapts to a situation.

trycksh0t, on 23 June 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Leave the weapon hardpoint system as is, it sounds like it works fine.

Agreed

trycksh0t, on 23 June 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Armor - Free to alter and swtich between standard and ferro fibrous. It's just welded onto the machine, not that difficult. A trained monkey could work on 'Mech armor.

Isn't ferro fibrous the armor that takes up internal space? It's been a number of years since I've tried to modify mechs in TT.

trycksh0t, on 23 June 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Heatsinks - Freely add or subtract at will, but requires purchasing an engine upgrade (should be pretty expensive) to switch from singles to doubles (or have two engine categories, SHS compatible and DHS compatible).

Double heatsinks have already had the impressive limitation of costing 50% extra space compared to normal heatsinks, ontop of the extra cost. I think the modifications you've suggested would just needlessly complicate things.

trycksh0t, on 23 June 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Engines - Able to change ratings, but not able to switch from standard to XL. Maybe add an option to upgrade a chassis to be XL compatible for a price, but I haven't decided yet.

Internal Structure - No alteration allowed, period. Might as well allow for building 'Mechs from the ground up, becuase that is (essentially) what changing the Internal Structure requires.

I'd have to get into the beta and their current mechbay to see how I feel about these things, so I'll just keep my thoughts to myself here.
Good thoughts all around though, I like your input trycksh0t.

Edited by ScientificMethod, 23 June 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[ice trey]

I'm all for the requirement for players to have stricter customization, and I think that these guys have done a great thing by limiting the number and type of weapons you can install on a 'mech.

Not even the tabletop construction system was as strict as what you're recommending. I think it's just fine to swap out some PPCs for Large lasers and vice versa (this happens frequently), or swapping out AC20s for Gauss Rifles (this also happens often).

However, it sounds like they'll be charging for each individual item, so - especially if we're talking about engines and the like, a major overhaul of a 'mech could easily cost as much as a second 'mech altogether.
If they include repair costs between missions as well, major customization could be more uncommon than you think.

Double heat sinks throw off the balance of the game. That much has always been known, and tends to be the biggest complaint of people who refuse to play tabletop Battletech with post-succession-war technology. However, Post-3050 Battletech tends to be a beast of a different nature, where 'mechs die more quickly on either side, since you're able to strap more guns onto every 'mech. When DHS comes around, I'm sure there will be means included to balance them.