75 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

Dark DeLaurel, on 19 September 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

have any proof that they are actually griefing sub 100 people?

The number of times that I get shot whilest in cover?

zortesh, on 19 September 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:

Hsr is the way to address the problem, aussie/nz wouldn't have the pop to maintain a active server on this game, hsr lets us play together at relatively equal footing.


Your not being penalzied for a good connection, infact you still probably win out of it, you probably shoot people with 200+ pings after there in safety of a regular basis, if we went player end for saftey you'd have alot of missed shots, or anyone in the southern hemissphere would just lose always every time.

Yes you'll get hit occasionally through walls, everyone does including highpingers, but as a nz player, I can say hsr makes this one of the only shooting games where I can play and not feel at a ridiculous disadvantage.

So the solution is to, instead of making regional servers, normalize around the median and to make sure that sub 100 ping people receive the same 'gameplay' as above 200 ping people?

Sorry, but introducing arbitrary BS is not a proper way to address problems like this.. and that is exactly what HSR does to this game.

[Symbiodinium]

Foxfire, on 19 September 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

PGI's solution is to guarantee that Sub 50 ping acts like 200+ ping. Seems that the 'sweet' spot for avoiding wonky hit detection issue is ~150 ping.

Yay arbitrary systems.. instaed of doing something to address the problem, such as regional servers.. they choose to make sure that people are screwed across the board.

Sub-50 ping does not act like 200+ ping. I've played with a ping of 40, 230 and 330. Lower is always better. The higher the ping the more often you get rubberbanding, involuntary course corrections and the target delay makes LRMs harder to use. At 200 you have to lead slightly with lasers, but ACs and missiles still work. Above 300 ping lasers don't do anything unless you and/or the target are stationary, SRMs are unreliable and the rubberbanding is severe.

[Foxfire]

Symbiodinium, on 19 September 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

Sub-50 ping does not act like 200+ ping. I've played with a ping of 40, 230 and 330. Lower is always better. The higher the ping the more often you get rubberbanding, involuntary course corrections and the target delay makes LRMs harder to use. At 200 you have to lead slightly with lasers, but ACs and missiles still work. Above 300 ping lasers don't do anything unless you and/or the target are stationary, SRMs are unreliable and the rubberbanding is severe.

I've played in it too.. and my experience around 300 ping hasn't been as bad. Yes, sub 50 ping isn't as bad as 300+ ping but it is still an arbitrary way to try to 'address' the difference in connection speed.

[Pika]

https://developer.va...ag_compensation

This may help shed some light on the issue. A low ping always brings the hit box more in line with the model. All the same it's an interesting read.

[Foxfire]

Pika, on 19 September 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

https://developer.va...ag_compensation

This may help shed some light on the issue. A low ping always brings the hit box more in line with the model. All the same it's an interesting read.

That makes sense if.. say, I wasn't in cover at the time that I get hit...

Tonight I've had my back obliterated in total cover once, three times I've had a leg blown off.. and once was absolutely raked over the coals and left so damanged across my front that I dare not show my face.

[NextGame]

I have 150mb internet and still get 110 ping. I blame atlantic ocean for trolling me

[zortesh]

Foxfire, on 19 September 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

The number of times that I get shot whilest in cover?


So the solution is to, instead of making regional servers, normalize around the median and to make sure that sub 100 ping people receive the same 'gameplay' as above 200 ping people?

Sorry, but introducing arbitrary BS is not a proper way to address problems like this.. and that is exactly what HSR does to this game.

Regional servers would only help guys in the usa, everyone from Oceania would end up on usa servers anyways, the gaming population over here just isn't enough to populate it 24/7, I've seen it on alot of games, anyone that comes onto game at dead hours switches over to us servers and then never comes back after enough switches, then you either end up with situation we've currently got, or a lowest ping wins situation where us 200+pingers are just the fodder you kill enmasse for lols.

You have a low ping so your probably okay with that second one thou.

How often do you get hit while in cover? is it a every round thing or just every few rounds?

I will swecond that thing soemone said about having to lead with lasers, that can be annoying, happens around 240-300 pings, thankfully I'm only 220 on a good day.

Edited by zortesh, 19 September 2014 - 10:52 PM.

[Dark DeLaurel]

Foxfire, on 19 September 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

The number of times that I get shot whilest in cover?
.

Anecdotal proof based on gut feeling. I mean hard evidence, without that then your statement has no legs.

Yes it does suck, and I have been there and do see it quite a bit when I am out working due to sub-par ISPs I have no choice but to use. You learn to adapt and keep playing, or some people QQ and are never to be seen again. Either way not much can be done about it unless regional servers come out and even then not sure how much that will fix the issues.

[Void Angel]

From the link you just quoted:
"Network latencies and lag compensation can create paradoxes that seem illogical compared to the real world. For example, you can be hit by an attacker you can't even see anymore because you already took cover. What happened is that the server moved your player hitboxes back in time, where you were still exposed to your attacker. This inconsistency problem can't be solved in general because of the relatively slow packet speeds. In the real world, you don't notice this problem because light (the packets) travels so fast and you and everybody around you sees the same world as it is right now."

Sorry, but you're grasping at straws out of frustration, here. Most likely what you're actually experiencing is a high-ping player shooting you on his screen - you'd get the hit message at half his ping + half your ping later, which accounts for every symptom you've described. No one is taking the time to penalize lower pings in order to bring performance into line with an arbitrary "medium" number - there's no point to them doing so. High-ping players are still going to have a measurably lower response time compared to low-ping players, so why screw with the low-pingers as well? You'd just end up with more dissatisfied people. A highly suspect interpretation of totally subjective experiences notwithstanding, it doesn't make sense. As the overseas players have been telling you, HSR merely levels the playing field a bit. For every time you get shot 200ms after crossing a danger area, they've been killed multiple times before they can even see an enemy.

As for why PGI, and just about everyone else, uses this system - it's the only way to compensate for higher connections and let people with higher pings play with any kind of parity. HSR is reducing the huge advantage that low pings have in shooter games; it's not penalizing anyone.

---

ShadowFighter88, on 19 September 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Not sure how quickly the signals travel along the international cables (they're fibre-optics so I assume the speed of light, but I don't know the distance nor exactly how quickly light can cover it) but that's as much of a slow-down as the signal leaving those cables and getting processed to run along a country's normal landlines.

Light-speed at planetary distances is practically instantaneous; though travelling through different mediums can affect it, its speed through a vaccuum is a little under 300,000km/s. Fiber optics transmit light at "only" ~200,000km/s - but the earth's circumference is a mere 40,000km. Packet loss, routing, server response times, and such make a much larger difference in response time time over long distances than the actual speed of transmission.

Edited by Void Angel, 19 September 2014 - 11:13 PM.

[ShadowFighter88]

Void Angel, on 19 September 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:

Light-speed at planetary distances is practically instantaneous; though travelling through different mediums can affect it, its speed through a vaccuum is a little under 300,000km/s. Fiber optics transmit light at "only" ~200,000km/s - but the earth's circumference is a mere 40,000km. Packet loss, routing, server response times, and such make a much larger difference in response time time over long distances than the actual speed of transmission.

Yeah, I figured the Earth's circumference would be peanuts at that speed (the number of times I've shot past planets while in supercruise while playing Elite Dangerous should've reminded me), just couldn't remember enough to be sure. And when we're talking about something measured in hundredths of a second I thought even a tiny delay like that could factor in.

That and I was watching Black Books at the time so that may have hampered me a bit (hard to think about the speed of light when you've got that show going in another window ).

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

So, at ~200,000 km/s (assuming a direct connection from my PC to Montreal ... ~10,000 km), data takes 50 ms to get there (round trip 100 ms) ... so my lowest theoretical ping is still 100 ms. Add in my router, cable modem, my ISP's switches, connections to the long haul fiber, and all that stuff on the other end, at 5-10ms for each transfer, that adds up to roughly 50-100 ms more just because.

I consider myself pretty lucky to see between 175 ms and 250 ms.

Compared to east coast NA (let's say, central Florida, that's ~2,000 km, or about 10 ms one way, 20 ms round trip).

On a continental scale, I generally agree that physical distance is not the most significant factor, and if you're in North America and seeing pings greater than 100 ms, you should probably contact your ISP and MW:O support.

However on a global scale, 100 ms is an absolute theoretical minimum for those of us in East Asia. Shift that to Sydney (~15,000 km, and that baseline raises to 150 ms), and distance can be the most significant factor.

All that said, I'll say this again ... if you have low ping, you might get hit a half second or a second after you moved back behind cover every now and then. If doesn't mean that we didn't see you ... we got off a good shot before you moved back. It just took that long for the damage applied data to reach you. It happens to us all the time.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 20 September 2014 - 12:29 AM.

[Griggio]

Quote

[color=#959595]Really? Do you have any idea on how the internet works?[/color]
[color=#959595]I have a 100mbps Fiber connection, yet my MWO latency is 286. [/color]

[color=#959595]Distance to server is as important a factor as connection speed[/color]

Well there's a lot of butthurt for no reason. Let me clarify the statement "people who run high ping period" I'm talking about the side effects of lag/latency compensation coded into online games to make it available to people with less than optimal connections. You know like it appearing like you were shot around the corner. This seems likely since OP was running with a pretty low ping.

No one's blaming high pingers for ruining the game or being bad people. It's the nature of things in online games and it's a better solution than running in a world where low ping players crush high ping players based only on the quality of their connection.

Not like people who have high latency have enough to worry about already.

Edited by Griggio, 20 September 2014 - 01:01 AM.

[Alymbic]

As someone whose ISP doesn't like PGI's new servers, and whose ping wildly fluctuates between 300-450ms in-game, I sincerely wish I had your problem OP :c

You see, not only am I getting hit by enemies I can't even see, I can't hit enemies who I cleanly hit on my client due to HSR not working at high pings.

Edited by Alymbic, 20 September 2014 - 12:59 AM.

[ShadowFighter88]

Griggio, on 20 September 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

Well there's a lot of butthurt for no reason. Let me clarify the statement "people who run high ping period" I'm talking about the side effects of lag/latency compensation coded into online games to make it available to people with less than optimal connections. You know like it appearing like you were shot around the corner. This seems likely since OP was running with a pretty low ping.

No one's blaming high pingers for ruining the game or being bad people. It's the nature of things in online games and it's a better solution than running in a world where low ping players crush high ping players based only on the quality of their connection.

Not like people who have high latency have enough to worry about already.

Well your original post did include the following line:

Griggio, on 19 September 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

...but until all players come off their 56.k dial up connections or stop trying to play off their old 3G phone HSR is just something we have to live with

Hard not to take that as inflammatory for those of us who have high pings and good internet connections.

[Ghogiel]

Foxfire, on 19 September 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

Sorry.. playing tonight for the first time in a few months and each time... with me in the sub 50 pings, I've had instances in which I was shot and disabled by attacks coming from targets that, by my screen, had no way at all to shoot me.

LEL

You've had instances of that? high ping players have that for every shot taken against them becuase you get to shoot their 'ghost'. ie on their screen they are in cover but you get to see them half a second after for everything.

[zortesh]

Ghogiel, on 20 September 2014 - 03:14 AM, said:

LEL

You've had instances of that? high ping players have that for every shot taken against them becuase you get to shoot their 'ghost'. ie on their screen they are in cover but you get to see them half a second after for everything.

And you get almost a quarter second of free shot time when you pop out before you're visible on there screen.

[Kiiyor]

zortesh, on 20 September 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

And you get almost a quarter second of free shot time when you pop out before you're visible on there screen.

Yes, but they then get extra time while/if you are backing away, and they are also able to react far faster to incoming fire. The lower ping player gets updates faster than the higher ping player. The higher ping player may see a PPC bolt incoming and twist to take it on an arm, only to find that the referee decided it had already struck the center torso.

All this is mostly conjecture, anyway. We only have a vague idea of the internet sorcery running through PGI's back end.

[Ghogiel]

Kiiyor, on 20 September 2014 - 03:45 AM, said:

Yes, but they then get extra time while/if you are backing away, and they are also able to react far faster to incoming fire. The lower ping player gets updates faster than the higher ping player. The higher ping player may see a PPC bolt incoming and twist to take it on an arm, only to find that the referee decided it had already struck the center torso.

All this is mostly conjecture, anyway. We only have a vague idea of the internet sorcery running through PGI's back end.

You can find tutorials on how to use HSR to your advantage in other FPS games. The principals apply here too.

[Foxfire]

Dark DeLaurel, on 19 September 2014 - 10:56 PM, said:

Anecdotal proof based on gut feeling. I mean hard evidence, without that then your statement has no legs.

Yes it does suck, and I have been there and do see it quite a bit when I am out working due to sub-par ISPs I have no choice but to use. You learn to adapt and keep playing, or some people QQ and are never to be seen again. Either way not much can be done about it unless regional servers come out and even then not sure how much that will fix the issues.

The thing is, it is hard to to really get proof without using a way that doesn't compromise your game speed(by either loading down your connection or adding load to your computer). Anecdotal evidence is really all that can be gathered to demonstrate this without setting up a way to monitor the game that doesn't impact those two aspects.

Edited by Foxfire, 20 September 2014 - 04:19 AM.

[Griggio]

ShadowFighter88, on 20 September 2014 - 01:09 AM, said:

Well your original post did include the following line:



Hard not to take that as inflammatory for those of us who have high pings and good internet connections.

Which is why I added the edits. But regardless you could be running an OC3 line if you have latency the end state is the same.

Here's a link from the Valve Developer forums which discusses Latency Compensation in game design. There's a lot of code and server talk which is even over my head, but if you scroll down to the end to the Game design implications section, it's a pretty interesting read.

https://developer.va...nd_Optimization