279 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Kin3ticX, on 25 September 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

The last test was done in the solo queue.

CW is 12 mans. You stated CW.

[Ultimax]

Molossian Dog, on 25 September 2014 - 04:09 AM, said:

Especially since there is -no- downside to a clan XL yet. I´d suggest you reserve your panic for the time disadvantages are implemented.

I already stated the downsides.

It can't be swapped for a STD.
It can't hold DHS to save crit slots if they aren't in there already.
It can't have DHS removed to save weight if they are already slotted.
It can't be downsized to save weight.
It can't be increased to increase speed.

These are real drawbacks, that affect almost every clan mech and the potential builds they could run.

There are very few clan mechs in the goldie locks zone for their engine size, and once we get CXL penalties I'm pretty sure I'd rather pay 10 extra tons on my DWF so when it loses a ST - and it almost always does - that it won't be crippled even further beyond the fact that it already lost half of its weapons.

Molossian Dog, on 25 September 2014 - 04:09 AM, said:

And you intentionally fail to mention that:
a ) two clan gauss weight 6 ton less than two IS gauss.
b ) two clan gauss occupy 2 slots less than two IS gauss
c ) your bemoaned Clan XL saves yet more tons. And slots in comparison to an IS XL.

I didn't think I needed to spell it out for IraqiWalker because he is a smart poster.

TBR, WHK & DWF: If anyone of these mechs tries to run Dual Gauss they are saddled with 5 to 10 tons of DHS locked into their chassis that they have zero use for on their builds.

"Lighter" CGAUSS is irrelevant for Dual Gauss loadouts when you already have tonnage dedicated to things on your mech that have ZERO benefit for Dual Gauss.

Have you ever even played a clan mech?

IraqiWalker, on 25 September 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Also, locked clan engines is a detriment, it's just not big enough to actually bring them close to balance against IS engines.

I disagree.

The Myst Linx, Kit Fox, Adder, Ice Ferret, Nova, Gargoyle & Dire Wolf are all prime examples of my point - and the Hellbringer & Timber Wolf are lesser examples.

Mechs that would actually be better mechs if they could use bigger engines for more speed (all of the lights, the Nova, the Dire Wolf) and mechs that would actually be better mechs if they could reduce their engines for more podspace.

IraqiWalker, on 25 September 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Clan XLs should be somewhere between IS STDs, and IS XLs. Not above them. IS STD gives max survivability for a weight cost, while saving slots. Clan XLs should give better weight savings, for a slot cost, and risk when losing a Side Torso, and death when losing both. So it's less survivable than IS STD, but better than IS XL. While IS XLs give the most weight savings for IS mechs, for 2 more slots than Clan XLs, and the risk of death when losing a side torso.

Clan XL is less survivable. You don't die with STD engine if you lose both STs.

While it's a harder to quantify consideration, there are very very few clan mechs that can actually use their arms to guard their STs like IS mechs can.

Mystere, on 25 September 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

I am 100% sure that on the day the King Crab is released, there will be at least one post calling for the reversal of all Clan nerfs.

I'm looking forward to the tears that mech is going to create and the "Why bring an Atlas????" threads begin.

[IraqiWalker]

Ultimatum X, on 25 September 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Clan XL is less survivable. You don't die with STD engine if you lose both STs.

Yeah, but you are moving significantly faster, than most comparable IS mechs using STDs making you more survivable.

Clan XLs are thus better than even IS STDs for survival. it's why the engine fix is needed. Once that is done, clan xls are still going to be great, and perform well. Without being over powered.

Remember, an engine only needs to lose 3 slots to either fully turn off, or go full thermonuclear. when it loses 2 (what happens when losing an ST on a clan mech with a clan XL), it's at a near critical state, and should be barely functioning right, which is why it has the reduced heat capacity, and increased base heat. At the very least those should be in the game.

Reduced top speed, and reduced turning speeds are my personal suggestion, but that might end up being too much. I personally want the heat penalties in. Once those are there, we can test things and see what happens.



As for the tests, they were done in the solo queue. That is exactly my point. Put them in the group queue, and see what happens. CW is not going to be easy. CW is going to be primarily groups. Get me a bunch of soloers that took a planet away from a faction, and I can guarantee that HHoD can take that planet back, and roll them every time. Groups are the real measure of balance. Since solo play has little to no teamwork, it's a bad measure of balance. Also, solo queue is decidedly about long range engagements in the early game. Meaning that clans are being handed the early game by stubborn idiots who refuse to understand their range deficiency.

[Ultimax]

IraqiWalker, on 25 September 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Yeah, but you are moving significantly faster, than most comparable IS mechs using STDs making you more survivable.

Yes, that's true but those IS mechs have the choice to go faster and add more firepower through XL.

Choice is a big factor imo, choice limits or creates new builds.

Choice is what holds all of those mechs I listed from being very good mechs and keeping them mediocre or swingy in performance.

So choice is a drawback, and choice is a factor.

The Kit Fox is not going faster, not going as fast as it could or should for survivability. Neither is the Myst Linx, the Adder, the Nova or the Dire Wolf.

The Ice Ferret will have too large of an engine, just as the Summoner and Gargoyle and yes even the Timber Wolf IMO.


If the devs see fit to add penalties to ST destruction, then I think they should loosen the locked engine restrictions.


The DWF STs are huge, you can hit them from like 800m - it can't shield them with it's arms, it can't run a faster engine to help protect itself by getting in and out of cover - it's one of the few mechs that can arguably not get into cover when being pounded by LRMs.


So my point is we can add more penalties, but then some of the restrictions need to be loosened.



"Because Lore" is a bad excuse for this not happening, because the same holds true for the wide spread customization we see IS side.

[IraqiWalker]

Ultimatum X, on 25 September 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

Missing part of the point

Get the ST fix in here, and then we can talk about other things.

[Ultimax]

IraqiWalker, on 25 September 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Get the ST fix in here, and then we can talk about other things.

I think it's debatable which one of us is missing part of the point.

We will get ST penalties but the other restrictions will not be loosened, not for any foreseeable time frame.


The VTR & HGN were nerfed way back in March. We are only seeing those dumb penalties removed in October. 7 months later.


You'll excuse me if I don't get excited about playing a bullet magnet DWF that already has multiple situations where it is bad, too slow, too unmaneuverable, very susceptible to light mechs & LRMs and has already lost half of it's weapons after losing a ST to now incur even more penalties using the hottest weapons in the game, or the crappiest variants of ballistics that exist for the next half a year or more before the Devs are likely to consider (if ever) dialing down some of the restrictions on customization.


My Kit Fox and Adder are already stupidly sub-optimal. They are 30 & 35 ton light mechs with bad speed, bad physical size, easy to leg, easy to shoot and have bad engine choices that don't even grant them 10 full 2.0 DHS.

Apparently these mechs also need CXL ST penalties on the odd chance some clown isn't trying to leg them and goes for a ST.


Or my Nova, where I long abandoned the Prime config for being outrageously hot in favor of going asymmetrical so I could protect 6 CERMLAS in my giant gorilla arms on a medium mech as wide as an Atlas by using a shield side. Except now using that shield side will probably be a bad idea.


Yeah I'm not holding my breath for reason to return to these forums.

I am looking forward to extracting tears with the King Crab though.

[Dagorlad13]

Thorqemada, on 20 September 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Clan Weapons weight less, take less space, most have more range, quite some do more damage, the Clan-XL-Engine is almost as durable as the IS-Standard for much less weight - you can "Spin Doctor" facts how you want - the only thing IS has it better is the damage characteristic of the IS-ACs.

Now Stop Crying!

Clan tech is supposed to be superior, the clans never lost Star League tech and had many years to improve it. Comstar only won at tukayyid due to trickery and overwhelming numbers.

[Kin3ticX]

Ultimatum X, on 25 September 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

We can argue however that taking a risky engine is a choice you get to make.

Or you can choose to use a STD engine for more survivability.

On most all IS 'mechs now, standard engines are completely inadequate because of the shear lack of speed and firepower. Clans get the payload and the speed and 2/3rds the tank. Your argument became a false premise the second Clans launched. There are but a handful of good standard engine builds now and most of them only include short range.

Find me an IS 'mech using a standard -or- XL that pushes 89 kph, 26DHS, 50+ alpha out to 438+, Jump Jet capability, and 441 armor. Ignoring the XL weakness issue.

Ohh wait, you cant. OOPS

[I_Garrosh Hellscream_I]

im just glad my faction finally changed, thank you

[Mcgral18]

Kin3ticX, on 25 September 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

On most all IS 'mechs now, standard engines are completely inadequate because of the shear lack of speed and firepower. Clans get the payload and the speed and 2/3rds the tank. Your argument became a false premise the second Clans launched. There are but a handful of good standard engine builds now and most of them only include short range.

Find me an IS 'mech using a standard -or- XL that pushes 89 kph, 26DHS, 50+ alpha out to 438+, Jump Jet capability, and 441 armor. Ignoring the XL weakness issue.

Ohh wait, you cant. OOPS

Shame it can't mount 40 tons of weapons, like it would be able to if you could adjust anything.

Edited by Mcgral18, 25 September 2014 - 02:58 PM.

[Ultimax]

Kin3ticX, on 25 September 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

On most all IS 'mechs now, standard engines are completely inadequate because of the shear lack of speed and firepower.

On all Clan Light mechs, and the Clan Nova, their engines are inadequate becuase of the "sheer" (not "shear") lack of speed.

The DWFs lack of speed sees it marginalized in a variety of situations.


Or have you missed the countless threads on how Clan Light mechs suck compared to IS light mechs?

Kin3ticX, on 25 September 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Clans get the payload and the speed and 2/3rds the tank.

IS gets more customization. This is a trade off.

If you think this doesn't heavily affect most of the clan mechs then you aren't paying attention.

Kin3ticX, on 25 September 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Your argument became a false premise the second Clans launched.

This doesn't even make sense. Should I expect Doc Brown at my door?

Kin3ticX, on 25 September 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Find me an IS 'mech using a standard -or- XL that pushes 89 kph, 26DHS, 50+ alpha out to 438+, Jump Jet capability, and 441 armor. Ignoring the XL weakness issue.

Ohh wait, you cant. OOPS

Find me a Clan assault that can protect it's STs in a brawl using it's arms.

Find me a Clan mech that can dump it FF for Endo.

Find me a Clan assault that can match my DDC in a brawl with Pinpoint AC 20, 3x SRM 6s, 350 STD engine.



When the King Crab comes I will run a Dual Gauss build, with near full armor, a large 325-350 STD engine with zero weaknesses - I will take Endo to save weight because it has that option and I'll strip all of the DHS from it since I don't actually need any.


The same people who are here crying about clan mechs will probably cry about that too, because they are cry babies. That's what they do, clan mechs are just the thing they are crying about now.

Previously they cried about VTRs, and HGNs, and Jump Jets, and PPCs, and basically anything that makes their mech barbie feel inadequate.

[Kain Demos]

Ultimatum X, on 25 September 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

On all Clan Light mechs, and the Clan Nova, their engines are inadequate becuase of the "sheer" (not "shear") lack of speed.

The DWFs lack of speed sees it marginalized in a variety of situations.


Or have you missed the countless threads on how Clan Light mechs suck compared to IS light mechs?





IS gets more customization. This is a trade off.

If you think this doesn't heavily affect most of the clan mechs then you aren't paying attention.





This doesn't even make sense. Should I expect Doc Brown at my door?







Find me a Clan assault that can protect it's STs in a brawl using it's arms.

Find me a Clan mech that can dump it FF for Endo.

Find me a Clan assault that can match my DDC in a brawl with Pinpoint AC 20, 3x SRM 6s, 350 STD engine.



When the King Crab comes I will run a Dual Gauss build, with near full armor, a large 325-350 STD engine with zero weaknesses - I will take Endo to save weight because it has that option and I'll strip all of the DHS from it since I don't actually need any.


The same people who are here crying about clan mechs will probably cry about that too, because they are cry babies. That's what they do, clan mechs are just the thing they are crying about now.

Previously they cried about VTRs, and HGNs, and Jump Jets, and PPCs, and basically anything that makes their mech barbie feel inadequate.

My feelings exactly. Like I've stated in other threads it's an endless cycle--

X is OP, please nerf it
Now that X is nerfed to **** people switch to Y
Cries of Y being OP get bad on the forums
Y gets nerfed to ****
Players switch to Build Z
Complaints of X being useless show up while Z's OPness is discussed
X gets buffed while Z gets nerfed to **** and we're right back where we started

Sadly this is the modern era of gaming.......players think if they scream loud enough about things they don't like the developers HAVE to cave in and sadly they often do only for us to repeat this stupid endless cycle.

Edited by Kain Thul, 25 September 2014 - 03:12 PM.

[Mystere]

Ultimatum X, on 25 September 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

The same people who are here crying about clan mechs will probably cry about that too, because they are cry babies. That's what they do, clan mechs are just the thing they are crying about now.

It would be safe to assume that some of those people will not. Instead they will declare that the King Crab is "balanced", as in "Yes, the King Crab is the best Assault Mech available. But, that does not mean it is overpowered.". A 180 degree reversal.

[SaltBeef]

I never agreed with the locked engine in Clan mechs in this game .... I can see components locked , ( fixed ) like active probe or weapons in CT!!..... the engine was never mentioned in any book. That should have been Cough! Enough Balance and totally against Clan Canon customization.
The Omni pods are spot on though best implementation so far I have seen in a MechWarrior title.

Edited by SaltBeef, 25 September 2014 - 03:57 PM.

[Molossian Dog]

Ultimatum X, on 25 September 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

I already stated the downsides.

It can't be swapped for a STD.
It can't hold DHS to save crit slots if they aren't in there already.
It can't have DHS removed to save weight if they are already slotted.
It can't be downsized to save weight.
It can't be increased to increase speed.

These are real drawbacks, that affect almost every clan mech and the potential builds they could run.
...

And your position is really that these drawbacks aren´t worth it? You´re serious?


---------------------------------------------

"Have you ever even played a clan mech?"

Oh my. Look at that! Rhetoric!

Just in case it is a sincere question: The answer is yes. I went as fat as to recreate my favourite IS builds.
The result: More speed, more heat capacity, more alpha, more DPS. The deficiency in PP is a myth, too.


---------------------------------

""Lighter" CGAUSS is irrelevant for Dual Gauss loadouts when you already have tonnage dedicated to things on your mech that have ZERO benefit for Dual Gauss."

I´m pretty sure I must somehow misunderstand what you wrote there.

You can´t possibly mean "Things that have ZERO benefit for dual gauss" when we talk about...let´s say 8 C-ERMLs?

The "locked" DHS -can- be used for other weapons. They should be. That is the benefit. That is the whole point of having more crits and tons available, after all.

Is it really your position that the option of having heat intensive weapons, giving you more options and raw damage output in addition to gauss rifles is...bad?

If yes, then I think we are done here.

[Ultimax]

Molossian Dog, on 25 September 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

And your position is really that these drawbacks aren´t worth it? You´re serious?

My position is that it's worth it for some clan mechs some of the time and not worth it for others, and certainly not worth it for all clan mechs all of the time.

I know you'd probably prefer a clear black and white answer, but there isn't one.

I can provide some examples though.


Example 1:
If I could have endo (5T savings) on my DWF, then a STD 300 would only be a 4.5 ton investment above a 300XL.

That 4.5 Ton investment would be well worth it - it would mean that now, people shooting my STs aren't working their way toward killing me.

Now they actually have to CT me, they have no other real option, and would be an undeniable survivability boost that would be worth a measly 4.5T.

That's an option that doesn't exist, that's a drawback.


Example 2:
If I could take an IS XL 300 on either my Kit Fox or Adder, I would be harder to kill, not easier. That's right, an IS XL.

They would move faster, have better overall value to the team - I'd be better able to keep myself alive trough sheer speed alone.




My point is that the trade off is worth it right now for some mechs, but not worth it for other clan mechs.

My point is that if we add penalties to ST destruction on engines the mech has no choice in (no STD available) - then at the least the locked Engine restrction should be removed - and probably other restrictions as well.


I can live with ST destruction penalties if I can customize my engine size, and the DHS that are or are not locked into it.

Molossian Dog, on 25 September 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

""Lighter" CGAUSS is irrelevant for Dual Gauss loadouts when you already have tonnage dedicated to things on your mech that have ZERO benefit for Dual Gauss."

I´m pretty sure I must somehow misunderstand what you wrote there.

Yes, you did misunderstand or perhaps simply do not see the full picture.


I'll tell you what, let's make a deal.

You accept my build challenge and pass it, and I will come back to this thread, apologize to you, publicly admit you are a better mech-builder than I am and then cease posting in this thread.




The Challenge

Please post the following:

1 Summoner, 1 Timber Wolf & 1 Warhawk build. (That's one of each)

• Give each of them Dual Gauss, and then give each of them enough energy weapons to justify their locked DHS.
  
• You may shave a maximum of 10% armor.
  
• The builds should have 4.5 to 5 tons of Gauss.
  
• The builds must be fully functional, and no clear bad choices like 20 armor in one arm where you store your Gauss ammo, etc.

The Summoner is there to illustrate a point, it's literally impossible for that mech to complete the challenge.

So I'll spot you this one as a failure, and say that you only need to pass using the Timber Wolf and Warhawk to prove that there is actually a benefit to having 5+ locked DHS on these mechs with Dual Gauss.


Remember, the point is not only to fit Dual Gauss, plus Ammo, but also justify those DHS that you seem to think can be put to use.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 25 September 2014 - 05:34 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

SaltBeef, on 25 September 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

I never agreed with the locked engine in Clan mechs in this game .... I can see components locked , ( fixed ) like active probe or weapons in CT!!..... the engine was never mentioned in any book. That should have been Cough! Enough Balance and totally against Clan Canon customization.
The Omni pods are spot on though best implementation so far I have seen in a MechWarrior title.

Except it it mentioned in EVERY BOOK, as omni-tech construction forces hardwired components - most importantly the engine, the myomer, and the gyro. I could go into fluff for why, but it's not necessary.

Omnis can't change engines, or any hardwired item found on the prime variant. For instance, we're getting the koshi. It has a head-mounted, fixed, active probe. All variants will feature this, and it's not possible to remove it, same with its 6 jets.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 25 September 2014 - 05:39 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

IronClaws, on 25 September 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Clan tech is supposed to be superior, the clans never lost Star League tech and had many years to improve it. Comstar only won at tukayyid due to trickery and overwhelming numbers.

Please don't post that argument. You actually don't help either side.

Clans did lose. Handily. They were OP because they were fighting stock mechs, with SHS, no Endo on 90% of them, and like 3 guns on the whole mech. For crying out loud the Kuritans were using Stinger LAMS as regular mechs and didn't know the things could fly.

At least read the lore before you cite it in your argument.

Our current IS mechs are equivalent if not better than Jihad era mechs. (better in that we all have C3i units installed for no weight or slot cost)

Molossian Dog, on 25 September 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

The deficiency in PP is a myth, too.

There is no myth about clans lacking PP. All energy weapons (except PPCs) in the game are PP. Clans lack PP FLD, and that's not a myth. They only have Gauss, and ERPPCs for it.

Vassago Rain, on 25 September 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Except it it mentioned in EVERY BOOK, as omni-tech construction forces hardwired components - most importantly the engine, the myomer, and the gyro. I could go into fluff for why, but it's not necessary.

Omnis can't change engines, or any hardwired item found on the prime variant. For instance, we're getting the koshi. It has a head-mounted, fixed, active probe. All variants will feature this, and it's not possible to remove it, same with its 6 jets.

engine size adjustment discussion done.

[SaltBeef]

Wrong! I have never anywhere!! Seen any text that says the engine is locked. Only In fixed internal section is items locked Yes adder has locked flamer yes Koshi has locked active probe yes!, IS avatar omni mech has locked Medium lasers but never anywhere does it state in text engines are locked NOWHERE! If I am wrong please POST IT for all here to see.

Edited by SaltBeef, 25 September 2014 - 07:15 PM.

[Icewraith]

That's incorrect though. "Fixed" components on omnis could always be adjusted as long as you were willing to put up with the same risk of unbalancing the mech you took when you customized a standard battlemech. The gyro never changed because the gyro was a function of weight and alternates were level three tech.

Anyone insisting clan internals and engine sizes should stay fixed should still be up in arms about allowable IS engine sizes not being a multiple of the base chassis weight