279 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 20 September 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

If IS players focused solely on the top performing mechs, I do not think it would be 1/4 matches.


The difficult part is, how do you convince people to run those mechs?


If we saw IS players stick to (generally speaking):

Jenner
Firestarter
Raven
Spider
Griffin
Shadowhawk
Jager
Cataphract
Victor
Stalker
Banshee
Atlas


Then I do not think the win/loss ratio would be 73% in favor of the clans.

I would probably remove the Spider from that list, because it tends to not be good at killing things (due to having half the firepower of a Firestarter or Jenner). The ECM variant is just passable because of the Magic Jesus Box™.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Adiuvo, on 20 September 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

That would have been accounted for in the Elo distribution trending towards clans. It did, but not to the level where a 73% win rate would be expected.

Furthermore there are clan trials now, so the new player argument doesn't really apply.

That Nova Prime is a nightmare.....0.9 heat eff....yikes.....that 12 lasers is entirely overkill. Even chain fired in groups of 4 its to much to fire it with any sustainability. That is totally the WRONG mech to give to a newbie....

[AssaultPig]

valrond, on 20 September 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Clan energy weapons have range on their side. But they are not more heat efficient. IS ML is 5dmg/4heat. C-ERML is 7dmg/6 heat. Yes, it weights the same and does more damage, but you need extra heatsinks for the extra heat, that, surprise! requires weight and room. Same with the small lasers IS is 3/2 and Clan is 4/3.

at ideal range, the IS lasers are a bit more efficient. But that's a moving target; assuming both have the range module equipped (to make the math easy mostly), the IS ML is doing 2.5 damage for four heat at 450m, a far inferior ratio to the clan ML. Range is a big deal.

as far as the engine talk, it's only a disadvantage for some clan mechs (the nova could really use a bigger engine; scrow and twolf are pretty solid.) I'm also not sure why you're losing your CT or legs so quickly on clan mechs; the more durable XL engines give you a lot more freedom to twist and soak damage than IS XLs do. If I'm in an IS heavy with an XL and one of my STs gets exposed I have to be really careful, because people are going to target it. With a clan engine I don't have to be so careful, because even if I lose that ST I'm still alive with half my weapons.

I mean, I agree that some clan mechs are sort of bad. The summoner is more or less pointless in light of the timber wolf, and the nova and the clan lights are way too slow. But if you're going to compare those mechs to IS mechs, you have to also consider all the bad IS chassis that are out there that yes, people do drop in for some reason.

[El Bandito]

valrond, on 20 September 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Stuff.

OP. Come back when Clans can die from single ST loss. Otherwise, your builds are meaningless.

Not to mention all Clan mechs have costless built in CASE, which means there is no probability of ammo explosion related Clan deaths, which is bullshit.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 September 2014 - 06:28 PM.

[Glythe]

Timberwolf can be built with 12 weapons max and it is super easy to ignore ALL ghost heat rules.

GG.

That alone skews the balance against IS mechs. You can do similar things with the Direwolf.


By comparison a mech like the stalker is handicapped because you have 2/3 weapon choices. My old favorite build with 6 medium lasers and 2x srm6+ 2xsrm4 is completely ruined.

If you only have 2 of 3 weapon categories you really should have at least 33% more leniency on ghost heat.

[Kin3ticX]

Clans have the durable XL engine and better construction rules(save for the hardwired aspects). There is no IS mech that can bring an intermediate 50 alpha with 26DHS going 89 kph with 440+ armor.

The Dire Wolf as well...... just so much firepower....

This thread has lots of inaccuracies in it.

[valrond]

Kin3ticX, on 20 September 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Clans have the durable XL engine and better construction rules(save for the hardwired aspects). There is no IS mech that can bring an intermediate 50 alpha with 26DHS going 89 kph with 440+ armor.

The Dire Wolf as well...... just so much firepower....

This thread has lots of inaccuracies in it.

Better construction rules?????? WTF are you talking about?

I'd GLADLY give up the ability to survive a side torso loss, that, anyone that plays with clans knows it isn't a big deal. Heck, I you can READ, you can see than even the Hunchy with STANDARD engine is as fast as the nova and can carry MORE weapons.

I'd exchange the ability to customize the mech as IS for the XL ability to lose a ST ANY DAY. I'd just could use ALL of the clan mechs effectively. I'd have FAST lights, and I could bring 40 tons of weapons in a Thor, like you can in a cataphract.

But no, the IS crybabies that don't put a cent on the game and don't play the clans and don't know what's to build and play a clan mech continue to say the same things until the clans are uter rubbish and IS are A LOT better than clan mechs. They are already better than Clan mechs, but please, PGI, continue to KILL the game by making the better faction in Battletech history unusable.

[Kin3ticX]

valrond, on 21 September 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

Better construction rules?????? WTF are you talking about?

I'd GLADLY give up the ability to survive a side torso loss, that, anyone that plays with clans knows it isn't a big deal. Heck, I you can READ, you can see than even the Hunchy with STANDARD engine is as fast as the nova and can carry MORE weapons.

I'd exchange the ability to customize the mech as IS for the XL ability to lose a ST ANY DAY. I'd just could use ALL of the clan mechs effectively. I'd have FAST lights, and I could bring 40 tons of weapons in a Thor, like you can in a cataphract.

But no, the IS crybabies that don't put a cent on the game and don't play the clans and don't know what's to build and play a clan mech continue to say the same things until the clans are uter rubbish and IS are A LOT better than clan mechs. They are already better than Clan mechs, but please, PGI, continue to KILL the game by making the better faction in Battletech history unusable.

Better construction rules.
https://docs.google.....g1876c8084_800
Ever notice endo and ferro only use 14 crits combined? Did you know clan ferro gives more armor per ton than IS ferro? Ever notice the weapons are lighter/better? Etc Etc Etc

BTW, I have put a few hundred dollars into the game, thank you.

WTF are YOU talking about?

Dont bring up Battletech history and then cry about slow lights and not enough podspace. That is all a part of Battletech isnt it?

Kitfox quote from sarna

"Rather than emphasize speed, the Kit Fox emphasizes armor and firepower"

Edited by Kin3ticX, 21 September 2014 - 01:07 AM.

[Riverboat Sam]

stjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?

The testing was uncontrolled garbage and produced worthless data. Nobody that is interested in real results tests random matches. That's just lazy and stupid. Meaningless tests at best.

[Glythe]

Want to see the real test?

You cannot build any IS heavy mech that comes close to the Timberwolf in terms of DPS, speed, number of weapons, armor or heat efficiency. In order to get close you need to drop down the values of a Timberwolf by 25-30% and then the IS mech is right on par. That's a complete joke.

Most of the clan mechs can use every weapon category at once. This gives a huge advantage with avoiding ghost heat rules. Several of the IS mechs only get 1-2 weapon categories and as such are completely useless.

Edited by Glythe, 21 September 2014 - 03:11 AM.

[Myk]

valrond, on 20 September 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

I think it's time for PGI to stop nerfing the clans before they are useless.

Guys seriously. Wake up. It's been 3 years now, all they ever produce is more mechs for people to buy. There won't be any community warfare. The game is dying out because the developers are milking it dead dry the only way they can.

Step 1 : Nerf current mechs (aka balance)
Step 2 : Offer new mechs (in this case Wave II) which will be new and (accidentally) overpowered
Step 3 : Allow players to play with strong mechs until you have another set ready to sell

Repeat Steps 1-3 with your new mechs, then go back and make more mechs.

There is no reason for PGI to offer any more content, gameplay etc.

It's really obvious that they're only focused on selling new mechs, nerfing current ones, and repeating the cycle.

It pays their bills, so ... either we can, as a community, stop feeding them when they do this...

... or just accept that this game won't ever be more than a 15 minute waste of time, and play it as such.

They're not going to make this in to an epic MMO ... its just a mech simulator guys, and they're just going to keep nerfing what we have, and offering better for sale...

It's been the same cycle ever since the game came out. Especially disgusting is the way they nerf the strong mechs just as they become available for C-Bills. Seriously makes me want to puke in my shoes.

[MadTulip]

I just see a lot of single facts beeing shelled out without any context and then used as some "argument". I.e. "Clan mechs can bring less tonnage on average which is why they need lasers". WTF? They get speed for the tonnage which any IS mech on that speed would also have to pay. "Lasers have a small weight." Are you sure about that? Just because each of them has a relatively low weight doesnt mean that they are tonnage effective. The system is a little bit more complicated then just that.

Check this out for some objective numbers:
http://mwomercs.com/...73#entry3678673

Enlil09, on 21 September 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

The testing was uncontrolled garbage and produced worthless data. Nobody that is interested in real results tests random matches. That's just lazy and stupid. Meaningless tests at best.

Plain false.

Without understanding anything but just having a "guts feel" about something beeing more or less OP we should just leave it to the statistics which say 73% unless ofc you want to argue that 1+1 does not equal 2 in which case it is lucky that "the guts" at least accept it compared to the consciousness..

Edited by MadTulip, 21 September 2014 - 03:27 AM.

[Jonny Taco]

LordKnightFandragon, on 20 September 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

Maybe why the Timber S never should have been lol.

Removing the S and introducing the D with the same hard points except the Jump Jets would probably be a good idea.

[Molossian Dog]

I´m just going to repost what I said in another thread. I plan to do this in every "OMG Clans suck" thread.

Molossian Dog, on 30 August 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

Some guys really don´t understand PGI´s business concept.

You pre-order something. Something exclusive. They deliver. Your new toy is better than the other toys. You feel good having spent the money.

But then your toy slowly begins to loose its shine. All in the name of balance. You are disappointed.

Then everyone can have it. Its surface becames duller and duller day by day. You wish back your superior shiny toy.

PGI offers another pre-order.

[spectralthundr]

El Bandito, on 20 September 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

OP. Come back when Clans can die from single ST loss. Otherwise, your builds are meaningless.

Not to mention all Clan mechs have costless built in CASE, which means there is no probability of ammo explosion related Clan deaths, which is bullshit.

Clan mechs do have ammo explosions. hate to burst that bubble. There's a good number of clan mechs that are either just plain bad, Adder, Nova, Kitfox without ECM, or mediocre due to non removable JJ's or Heat sinks Summoner, Warhawk.

So that leaves you with the TimberWolf, DireWhale, and Stormcrow.. whoooptif'indo.

The next thing is pilot skill, you can have any scrub hop in a clan mech and despite having longer range weapons, still be absolutely useless at using said longer range weapons. I see it daily.

The clan lights are a joke compared to IS lights, slow, not able to scout efficiently, relegated to pure support roles because they are just too damn slow to pester like IS lights are able to do. Then you have clan mediums that again do not move as fast as the lore says they should, and due to ghost heat, are not allowed to use their hardpoints effectively either, especially the Nova, with it's legs about as big as it's entire torso that get blown off by simply grazing them.

That's not even mentioning the 5 JJ locked Thor that now that JJ's have been nerfed to oblivion due to all the crying about jump snipers is even more relegated to try to do more with far less than most IS mechs, or other clan mechs.

There's a reason the meta has shifted to laser and LRM builds, everything else, PPC's, JJ's, Gauss, have been QQ'ed to oblivion that only the most skilled pilots can still effectively use things like Gauss or PPC's and still hit enough to help their team out.

[Satan n stuff]

Ace of Spades, on 20 September 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

And these are the majority of chassis you are currently facing. The TBR is the most versatile clan mech considering omnipod-swaps and is also the most technically advanced.
I see the other chassis too but not as overwhelmingly often as the three mentioned before. So I would agree that Clans over all are not OP, but these specific mechs are definitely better than all the other Clan mechs so far.

Agreed.
The Timberwolf could probably use a torso twist nerf, at least the speed of it, possibly the max angle too, that way they'll become a lot easier to put down. I can do it just fine but Joe Average apparently can't.

The Stormcrow could do with an acceleration nerf to make it a bit harder to do hit and run alpha strikes, this is an especially powerful tactic with the SRM build which can often do this without taking any return fire, and packs enough of a punch for it to matter. It would also give the clan lights some advantage over it besides ECM.

The Dire Wolf, I'm not sure if it even is overpowered, I've mastered mine and they seem to be extremely situational at best. If anything I'd go after the arm turn rate as just about anything else related to agility is already so bad on it that nerfing it even more would just cripple the mech. I don't think the hitbox change was necessary, but I don't see any real reason to go back to the old hitboxes either, it might be slightly easier for new players to survive in it the way they are now. My Dire Wolves could usually take as much damage as an Atlas either way.

[IraqiWalker]

El Bandito, on 20 September 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

OP. Come back when Clans can die from single ST loss. Otherwise, your builds are meaningless.

Not to mention all Clan mechs have costless built in CASE, which means there is no probability of ammo explosion related Clan deaths, which is bullshit.

Clans should NEVER die from a single ST loss. Makes no sense, the rules are 3 engine slots need to be destroyed for the engine to die. However, what needs to happen, is for the penalties form losing an ST to be put into the game. Those being increased heat, slower turn rate, and slower movement speed, since the engine suffered near-critical damage.

As for case II, no, they need it, and they should have it. We're gonna get it soon as well. Clan mechs force their designers to put the ammo in the side torsos because of their fixed slots. While our IS mechs can use STD engines, and put ammo in the legs. Something no clan mech can do (except for a couple with all of TWO free slots in ONE leg). If we remove case II all it takes is one alpha to kill a clan mech. Hit the arm or the ST, and you have a solid chance of detonating all ammo and killing the mech out right. Sorry, but removing CASE II is B.S.

When clan mechs can put ammo somewhere other than their STs, and use STD engines, then we can discuss removing CASE II, MAYBE.

What needs to be done is install the penalties for losing an ST (which is insanely easy, considering all you need is one proper crit shot on the gauss rifle/ AC/ SRM/ LRM ammo in there to take it all out).

Satan n stuff, on 21 September 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

The Dire Wolf, I'm not sure if it even is overpowered, I've mastered mine and they seem to be extremely situational at best. If anything I'd go after the arm turn rate as just about anything else related to agility is already so bad on it that nerfing it even more would just cripple the mech. I don't think the hitbox change was necessary, but I don't see any real reason to go back to the old hitboxes either, it might be slightly easier for new players to survive in it the way they are now. My Dire Wolves could usually take as much damage as an Atlas either way.

The direwolf shouldn't really be touched to be honest. There is literally one variant that can move it's arm sideways BARELY. Plus, all the pods that have weapons in them come with enough nerfs as is.

[That Dawg]

stjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?

All we "saw" in that link was a post indicated percentages. I saw nothing that showed in each battle what percentage were clan mechs, what were IS mechs........if you have a battle where 6 in 10 mechs are clan........guess what the hell what?
If we knew how many raw players were in those stats, wouldn't that flavor the results?

Noobs dont buy clan mechs?
Clan mechs being more expensive make up less of a players stable than IS mechs?
Clan mech nutters, need the latest, greatest, and are more likely to be at least seasoned players?

I tear it up STILL in my kintaro, banshee (only two IS mechs I kept)

I'm guessing the reason (along with the overly severe clan nerfs) we saw a "leveling" of "who won more battles" would be........they now have MORE clan mechs for cbills, no?

Bad stats twisted to hush the QQQing are bad stats

[Satan n stuff]

IraqiWalker, on 21 September 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

As for case II, no, they need it, and they should have it.

FYI it's not CASE II, it's Clan CASE. CASE II is developed after the clan invasion. It has to be mounted the same way as IS CASE but it can be mounted anywhere, it prevents an ammo explosion from destroying the section the ammo is mounted in.
It causes an ammo explosion to deal only one point of damage to internals, the rest is applied to the ( rear ) armor of that section.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 21 September 2014 - 10:01 AM.

[That Dawg]

IraqiWalker, on 21 September 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

The direwolf shouldn't really be touched to be honest. There is literally one variant that can move it's arm sideways BARELY. Plus, all the pods that have weapons in them come with enough nerfs as is.

You mean.........................like the Stalker that was beat into submission with nerfs a year ago?

direwolf isn't a big threat, stay out from in front of it.
leave the nerf bat off of it, I dont, nor wont have one too