279 replies to this topic

[Crunk Prime]

I love seeing all the clan babbies crying about the possibiltiy of clan mechs getting nerfs. [redacted]

Clan weapons and some clan mechs themselves need some straight up nerfs. I have a direwulf, and I can safely say the thing is an over powered beast. I can rig up builds that down Atlases through the front CT in about 4 seconds.

Vulture/Mad Dog hopefully has some built in already in the form of quirks. Otherwise have fun seeing SRM6x6 vultures become the new splat cat, only now they'll have clan ER mediums and heatsinks to spare.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 21 September 2014 - 10:37 AM.
Minor language

[IraqiWalker]

Satan n stuff, on 21 September 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

FYI it's not CASE II, it's Clan CASE. CASE II is developed after the clan invasion. It has to be mounted the same way as IS CASE but it can be mounted anywhere, it prevents an ammo explosion from destroying the torso section the ammo is mounted in. It causes an ammo explosion to deal only one point of damage to internals, the rest is applied to the ( rear ) armor of that section.

I stand corrected.

That Dawg, on 21 September 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

You mean.........................like the Stalker that was beat into submission with nerfs a year ago?

direwolf isn't a big threat, stay out from in front of it.
leave the nerf bat off of it, I dont, nor wont have one too

yest the STK-3F is still a very competitive mech.

Crunk Prime, on 21 September 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

I love seeing all the clan babbies crying about the possibiltiy of clan mechs getting nerfs. [redacted].

Clan weapons and some clan mechs themselves need some straight up nerfs. I have a direwulf, and I can safely say the thing is an over powered beast. I can rig up builds that down Atlases through the front CT in about 4 seconds.

Vulture/Mad Dog hopefully has some built in already in the form of quirks. Otherwise have fun seeing SRM6x6 vultures become the new splat cat, only now they'll have clan ER mediums and heatsinks to spare.

Pit that direwolf of yours against a stock hunchie, and unless you get at least a good 500 meters + of range on it. You're going to lose every time. Sure, it brings firepower, but unless you're facing idiots who like staring at the sun too long, you're not placing that anywhere worth while for long.

I've ran every DWF build possible by now, even tried to run one as an LRM boat. My DWF-B runs 9 ERPPCs, for giggles. I know that mech inside out, and as a pilot that will be fighting for the IS during CW, I can tell you that mech doesn't need a nerf. As long as you move sideways you're dodging half if not all of it's firepower. Plus, with so much ammo in the side torsos, it's very easy to rip one side open, and stay in it's shadow, preventing that mech from landing a single hit on you.

Honestly it's almost as binary as LRMs are. When it works, it annihilates everything, and when it doesn't, it just fails miserably.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 21 September 2014 - 10:37 AM.
Language in quote

[Sorbic]

lartfor, on 20 September 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Clan team elo was on average higher than IS team elo. This was directly stated by Russ however I don't think an exact figure was given.

A player posted some very detailed stats showcasing some 1500+ games a couple weeks back. When looking at these more specifically... A good IS team with good IS mechs vs a good clan team with good clan mechs showed less than a 4% difference in overall effectiveness.

Except that the only methods available to him left that 4% taking out the worst of the IS and not the worst of the clan so it was still a little off. But overall most clan mechs are close enough to balanced for me. I like the idea of them being at least a lil superior. And some, like the KF are definitely not op.

[Jonny Taco]

Sorbic, on 21 September 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

Except that the only methods available to him left that 4% taking out the worst of the IS and not the worst of the clan so it was still a little off.

No doubt. It should also be noted that a large portion of the game results used for his stats were pre clan laser nerf as well. It would be interesting to see how good clan mechs vs good is mechs compare with game results gathered specifically after the most recent round of laser nerfs.

[SaltBeef]

Save the Drama 4 your Momma!

[IraqiWalker]

Wrenchfarm, on 21 September 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

All kinda valid points with some glaring mistakes here and there

I've already crunched the numbers. If the IS pilots are stupid, they will try to mimic the clan builds, instead of relying on the fact that their mechs are more customizable. If you make identical set ups, clans end up having more slots, but similar if not less weight.

The argument that IS pilots are less skilled is actually supported by the stats. It's not that pilots for the Inner Sphere are bad pilots, it's just that for every test the overwhelming majority of new players are on the IS side. In fact, for the first 4 or so tests, they were ONLY on the IS side. Having even ONE (C) mech on your team dropped that player's impact on the match by as much as 60% if not more.

Clan tech is OP for the public queue. That is true. However, that is not the tech's fault, it's actually quite balanced against IS tech. No, the problem is with the players. The tactic used by almost 99% of all players in the PuG, almost exclusively, is to start with long range poking, and then move into a brawl later on. The problem is that long range poking is what the clans excel at. Leading to the clans winning the early game, and then rolling the IS teams once they are 3-4 mechs ahead. Which is almost impossible to counter. The test matches that my teams won (I was playing IS for a few of them), were ones where we knew what was going on, didn't have anyone suicide because they were a whiny failure, and we used cover to close in on the clans and engage them at short range. Where the IS holds the upper hand.


So yes, clan tech is OP, and P2W against staring-at-the-sun-can't-breathe-without-a-reminder-window-licking-players. I absolutely agree. It's taken months for most of us to get enough of our IS players (the ones not on the forums) to understand that IS wins at close range and hit and run, and that they should stop being delusional about beating a clan mech at range. We still have a MASSIVE chunk of the IS player base that still doesn't comprehend that.

Clan tech isn't OP. Clan tech seems OP because the tactic used in the PuG queue lends itself wholly to it. The tactics prevalent in the PuG queue make clan tech seem OP. That's not the tech's fault, that's the players' fault.

Before you go on another rant accusing me of being a test tube baby, don't. I'm an IS player, and will be an IS player during CW.

As for the engines. Clan engines should stay as is. What needs to happen is adding the penalties when a clan mech loses a side torso, since the engine suffers near-critical damage. Those penalties being: Increased heat, and reduced heat threshold, reduced movement speed, and reduced torso and arm movement speed.

Your example of the Nova build is inherently flawed since you didn't factor in burn times, heat, or cycle times.
Yes those 19 DHS on the Nova, aren't cooling it better than the 18 on the Hunchie. The 5 JJs are almost wasted tonnage right now with how JJs work (not helpful with heat either btw).

Shredhead made most of these arguments (much better in many cases) a while ago. Here's an excerpt of our back and forth if you want this to become a debate, should help move this along faster, since we'll all be on the same page:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Shredhead, on 26 June 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Man, I was just about to call flawless victory before I saw your post
I will try, but making one point at a time is pretty difficult, as all these things work together to give the impression that clan tech is imbalanced. I will also make as many points as I can in one post, one after the other, to create a base for discussion. I will also try to relate as much as possible to actual gameplay and provide practical examples.

My reason for going with one point at a time was so that we can establish foundations, and then we can come back to those as the argument develops.
Also, before forming any more responses, I ask that you take a look at this spreadsheet with the pod quirks, to add more to your data pool.
This is also going to be viewed by other people, as it is on the forums, so I will explain certain aspects even if I know for a fact, you know them, as I don't know how informed others will be.

Shredhead, on 26 June 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Point 1 - clan tech is too light and takes too few slots. This is not offset enough by the negatives. Clan mechs can pack an obscene amount of firepower. Let's take a look at the pod space per mech:
Kit Fox - 14.53 tons of pod space, 27 free slots
Adder - 15.8 (16) tons of pod space, 28 free slots
Nova - 15.5 tons of pod space, 34 free slots, 4 DHS and 5 JJs hard wired (which is not a negative at all)
Stormcrow - 22.86 (23) tons of pod space, 33 free slots
Summoner - 20.69 (21) tons of pod space, 35 free slots, 4 DHS, 5 JJs hard wired (chassis suffers somewhat from a lack of hardpoints)
Timberwolf - 27.46 (27.5) tons of pod space, 33 free slots, 5 DHS hard wired
Warhawk - 32.3 (32.5) tons of pod space, 26 free slots, 10 DHS hard wired
Direwolf - 50.31 (50.5) tons of pod space, 41 free slots, 5 DHS hard wired

I'm going to go through them one by one, comparing them to IS mechs with the exact same weight (not +5 tons like some might want)
mechs

Spoiler

Kitfox

Spoiler

Kitfox (30 tons): completely stripped, has FF, and endo, XL180 (which it can't upgrade, a huge negative for it and all clan mechs), and 2 fixed DHS, will have 27 slots and 20 tons for pods and armor.
Compared to it a Firestarter (30 tons as well) with XL 180 (which it can upgrade, a HUGE advantage for it and all IS mechs), 2DHS, FF, and Endo(it doesn't need FF), will have 25! tons and 9 slots.
So on slots, engine, and free tonnage alone the Kitfox is:
Free Tonnage: KFX at 20, FS-9 at 25 (FS wins)
Engine: KFX at 180 (doesn't have a choice), FS9 variable, could go either way, the advantage is more for the FS simply due to customization.
Slots: KFX at 27, FS9 at 9. KFX takes it, barely.
Now on to important factors such as hardpoints. As it stands the FS9 has more hardpoints, allowing fora versatile set up, that doesn't need to be pod dependant. It can mount energy weapons (and ballistics for 2 of them) almost anywhere, (ballistics have to be in STs, but that's it). The FS9 can move faster, while carrying a full armament of weapons that made people cry OP, and while being completely independent of ammo issues. Which the KFX suffers from. A lot of the free slots have to go to ammo, while still using 5 tons less than the FS9. That's ofcourse if they are running similar engines. An advantage which I forced on the FS9 here. Not to mention that those 9 slots are all the FS9 needs to run a full (or almost full) compliment of MLs.
Then we have to worry about hitboxes. KFX is very squat, and so it is extremely wide for a light mech, making it very easy to hit. In addition it moves at only 106 with speed tweak means it can be chased down by most mediums, and some heavies. While in comparison the FS9 is slimmer both from the side and from the front, and can move at a freightening 150Kph. Making it an all around harder target to hit.
The third concern is the inflexibility of the slots, this isn't with just the KFX, this is across the board for ALL clan mechs. Structure slots, and some pieces of equipment are fixed and do not move around, unlike IS.

---

Many of the points being made here carry over across the board, especially things like engine restriction, hitboxes, and fixed equipment/slots

---

Adder

Spoiler

Adder (35 tons): Completely stripped with XL210, 2DHS, Endo, FF, and the fixed flamer 22 free tons, 28 free slots)
Comparing it to a Jenner (35 tons): completely stripped with XL 210, 2DHS, Endo, and FF, 22.5 free tons. (You can slap an ammo-less AMS in there to compensate for the half ton that the jenner doesn't need to waste)
Keep in mind:
Jenner has 4-6 hardpoints across it's variants, mainly energy, so not ammo reliant (except for the Oxide which is too specific a case to be considered), doesn't need to mount the XL 210 as it can mount a full complement that is comeptitive in today's meta with a max XL engine.
So in this case
Free Tonnage: Jenner at 22.5, Adder at 22 (mild advantage to the jenner)
Engine: ADR fixed, JR7 variable (goes to the JR7)
Slots : ADR at 28, JR7 at 11 (goes to the ADR)
This is at best a tie, and at worst an advantage for the Jenner.
The ADR suffesrs from a bad profile as well, what with it being even wider than the Jenner, and the CT hitboxes leaves much to be desired, which is saying something, since the Jenner is almost entirely CT.
This is of course, before throwing out the RVN, which is ANOTHER 35 tonner light the IS have, and is also one of the top 3 best lights out there.

Nova

Spoiler

This one was a bit trickier because we have 3x50 ton IS mediums to compete against it. I will list some bullet point attributes for each one when compared against the NVA for each one
Nova (50 tons): Stripped, with only XL250, 4DHS, standard structure and armor, and 5 JJs (aside from the engine, the 4DHS and 5 hardwired JJs are already a problem, 2 JJs is more than enough, as this mech is losing a total of 1.5-2.5 tons just on JJs alone. Before counting DHS). Has 26 free tons, and 34 free slots
CN9: with XL 250, and 4DHS (can't mount JJs) has 28.5 free tons and 30 slots (thank the 2slot DHS for that one).
HBK: 28.5 free tons, and 29 slots
TBT: 28.5 free tons, and 30 slots (the 3C, 5M, and LPG come with Endo steel for extra free tonnage, and the 5J, 7M, and LRG can mount JJs to end up at 26 tons)
So for these mechs:
Free tonnage: Goes to most of the IS mechs that don't mount JJs, and is a tie for the ones that do, IF they choose to mount the obscene 5 (which they can just NOT do, 2 is more than enough giving them a 1.5 ton lead)
Engine: NVA has a 250 XL that functions almost like a standard engine, most of the mediums don't need that engine, however, and perform greatly without it. It is actually a tie though, as an improved engine can be an advantage in some cases.
Free Slots: The NVA has 6 more free slots than most IS mediums. The Advantage goes out to the NVA here. (The restricted structure slots are still a good check for it)
Now let's start with the biggest elephant in the room: The engine. Not a single one of those IS mediums need to run THAT big of an engine. Most of them will do phoenominally well with a STD 200. They can also upgrade their structure to Endo steel to free up a LOT more weight compared to the NVA, and even though a lot of them can't mount 12 energy hardpoints, with Ghost heat restrictions the NVA will be firing almost equally to a HBK-4P.
All of them retain good hardpoints in the torsos, unlike the NVA where only the B and S can (traditionally mounted with MGs, due to fixed slots making it difficult to use the hardpoints for anything else efficiently)
Then we have to get to durability. The NVA CT sticks out too much compared to any of them. The centurion is infamous for being one of the tankiest mechs in the entire game. Comparable even to an Atlas, even though it can't mount the same amount of armor. Simply because the hitboxes are THAT good. The Nova's squat and wide profile serves it really well, IF it doesn't jump, meaning the 2.5 tons in JJs aren't as useful on it, as they would be on say a shadowhawk with high mounted ballistics and energy (in the case of K) for efficient poptarting.
Then of course, the fixed JJs, 5 of them to be exact. At te very least 3 of them are unnecessary. However, the NVA has to deal with that, PLUS the heat generated from having 5 JJs (which is going to be implemented very soon if I'm not mistaken).
Bear in mind, I am not saying the JJs are a disadvantage, I'm saying that 5 of them is a disadvantage. The mechs without them, can bring more tonnage into the foray in terms of weapons, and those with JJs can bring just as much. (thus mitigating if not completely balancing the weight and slot saving attribute of the clan weaponry)

---

At this point I would like to bring up the fact the not a single Clan mech can runa zombie build, while almost EVERY IS mech can do so. Another thing to keep in mind.

---

Stormcrow

Spoiler

This one also had several contenders: Griffin, Kintaro, Wolverine, and the Shadowhawk (widely considered the best medium mech out there).
Stormcrow (55 tons): Completely stripped, with XL 330 (an engine it doesn't really need), Endo, and FF. Has 32.5 free tons, and 33 free slots.
GRF: 32.5 tons and 13 free slots (mounts JJs)
KTO: 32.5 tons, 13 slots
SHD:32.5 tons, 13 slots(mounts JJs)
WVR: 32.5 tons, 13 slots(mounts JJs)
For these mechs in terms of engine, free tonnage, and slots:
Free Tonnage: SCR 32.5, all of the others bring either 32.5 or 31 tons (if they wanted to mount JJs)
Engine: fixed for SCR, while the others can upgrade, in fact, most of them runa full compliment of weapons while running around in XL 350+ (like the Kintaro which can replace the SCR-D variant completely, while running energy + SSRMs, and moving faster. Flat out superior to the SCR-D)
Slots: SCR at 33, the others at 13 (again, if forced to run the same upgrades, and engines, which almost none of them need/do)
This is another scenario where it is at best a tie, and at worst a win for the IS mechs.
We then have to move on to hitboxes here, where IS mechs again have the advantage, in terms of slimmer hitboxes. While the SCR has one of the larges arm hitboxes in the game, and it's a medium. The CT hitbox is actually okay on the SCR, not as bad as the ADR, NVA, TBR, DWF, or WHK
Then there is the problem of speed. Most of the 55 tonner mediums are either going to be running larger XL engines (KTOs, GRFs, WVRs, some variations of the SHD) with JJs, or smaller STD engines, with bigger guns. As mentioned earlier, one of the KTOs flat out replaces and surpasses the SCR in terms of pay load and speed. The SCR will have more ammo, but the KTO will have enrgy weapons that can engage outside the range of missiles (unless the SCR runs LRMs, then the GRF and WVR can match if not surpass it), again with the added mobility of 1 or 2 JJs for all but the KTO.

---

POINT ALPHA:
Basically, to put in short, the argument, about clan superiority: Clan mechs are superior to IS mechs IF you run the IS mechs in one extremely particular way. This point permeates the argument completely, and most people can't steer away from it, refusing to accept variability in construction. Basically all of these comparisons have the main flaw of restricting IS tech. An example would be me saying the LCT-1V is better than the JR7-F if you put an XL 190 in the JR7-F and one ML.

---

Summoner

Spoiler

Summoner (70 tons): completely stripped, with XL 350, 4DHS, Standard structure, FF, and 5JJs (another handicap) ( I won't debate the hardpoint issue as you already covered that)
32 free tons, and 35 slots.
Compared to the CTF (70 tons): completely stripped with XL 350, 4DHS, STD structure, FF and JJs where applicable. (Not a single one can mount above XL 340, and the 4X only goes up to 255)
34.5 free tons, 21 free slots
Free Tonnage: SMN 32, CTF 34.5 on JJ variants (with 4, none of them need more than 2), and 38.5 on those that don't have JJs. Goes to the IS
Engine: Fixed XL 350 (more than it will ever need), versus variable. Goes to the IS. Especially considering the biggest engine the CTF mounts is a 340, and it never needed to run more than a 300 to be one of the top, most competitive, mechs out there.
Free Slots: SMN at 35, CTF at 21 (26 for non JJ variants). Goes to Clan
First let's sart with the JJs, 5! hardwired, non-removable JJs, each taking up a full ton and a slot. That's another case of too many JJs for the mech, it doesn't need them, and doesn't need the weight, slot, and heat cost from them. Followed by the mediocre weight saving of FF armor instead of Endo steel. Add to that the fixed XL 350 engine, which is it's only saving grace, as it gives it somewhat above average mobility compared to the Cataphract.
That mobility advantage from the JJs, and the engine is mitigated by the CT hitbox of the summoner (equivalent to that of the SCR, if not a bit worse. Again, nowhere near as bad the ones previously listed), and the mediocre firepower it brings.
This is one case where the advantage goes to the IS, with little resistance from clan tech.

Timberwolf

Spoiler

The point of contention, the one mech that is supposed to be good, is good, and is also overrated at the same time. Causing many players to scream OP, and P2W.
Timberwolf(75 tons): completely stripped with XL 375, 5DHS, Endo, and FF
39.5 tons, and 33 slots
Compared to the underrated Orion (75 tons):Completely stripped with XL 360(can't mount 375), Endo, FF, and 5 DHS
42.5 tons, and 12 slots
Free tonnage: TBR at 39.5, ON1 at 42.5. Goes to IS.
Engine: TBR with XL 375, a very good engine, and most agree, is beyond what it needs to run good loadouts. ON1, a max of 360, and the mech never needed more than a 300 to run it's powerful set ups. This one is a tie
Slots: TBR at 33, ON1 at 12. This one goes to the TBR
This scenario is a tie as far as those three stats are considered.
First the hitboxes issue should be brought out. While the ON1 enjoys a slim CT,and hard to hit shoulders allowing it to run most engine configurations with little risk, and enjoy effective torso twisting to spread damage, the TBR suffers from one of the worst CT hitboxes in the game. Even the Dragon enjoy s a friendlier CT hitbox, and the TBR's is on parr with that of the DWF, making torso twisitng more difficult to use properly, and the TBR has the exact same range of motion with the torso as the Orion.
Adding to that is the fact that the Orion's arms can actually shield the torso, while the TBR arms do not shield the torso as good as the Orion's arms do.
The next point is the hardpoint distribution. The T-Wolf has an equal number if not more(with the riskier configurations), compared to the Orion. So it can bring just as much firepower, if not more in some cases, to bear on a target. (mitigated by the DoT mechanic of clan weapons -more on that point in the weapons discussion-)
Then comes the engine set up. The T-Wolf has a very good XL 375, giving it great mobility. However, the Orion as a heavy, does not (much like the cataphract) need to mount an engine that massive, while bringing just as much firepower as the TBR (in fact more efficient if you use an AC 20 set up)
If the T-wolf wants a real advantage it would equip JJs, for mobility, and that comes with the risk of increased cycle times, more tonnage lost versus the Orion, and extra heat damage.
In this case, the result is pretty much a tie. Or as close to one as possible. Fixed JJs (3 perhaps, so it's not sacrificing too much weight, and heat) might bring the TBR more in line with other heavies, though.

Warhawk

Spoiler

Warhawk(85 tons): Completely stripped with XL340, 20DHS (way more than most assault mechs use), and FF.
46 free tons, 26 free slots
Compared to the BLR, and STK chassis
BLR: Completely stripped, with XL 340, 20DHS, and FF
46 tons, and 6 slots
STK: completely stripped, with XL 310 (cannot mount above 310), 20 DHS, and FF
49 tons, and 7 slots
For these stats:
Free Tonnage: WHK at 46 tons, BLR at 46 (tie), STK at 49(win). Goes to IS
Engine: Fixed versus variable, goes mostly to the IS, though in this case the WHK can mount the big engine with okay firepower, and I'd put it closer to a tie.
Slots: WHK 26, BLR 6, STK 7. Goes to Clan
This scenario is close to a tie. However, I should note that WHK will be moving on average, faster, and more nimbly than either the BLR or the STK. While brining more DHS as well. However, the DHS benefit is mititgated by the high heat on Clan weapons. The engine offers a decent enough advantage that it tied with the IS variable engine set ups. In summary, unless the IS BLR pilot brings an XL 340 (with exactly 20DHS) into the fight, they should have a fair chance if not an advantage compared to the WHK. In the case of STK that is not an option, and even with the 310 engine restriction, the STK is equal if not better.
The durability of IS STD engines and having them be mounted on the STK chassis without sacrificing firepower already puts the STK at an advantage. The WHK is going to be more nimble, and somewhat faster (a mere 6 Kph I think). The WHK has a 5degree advantage in torso twisting over the STK, mitigated by the large CT hitbox. While the STK has the advantage of larger ST hitboxes, allowing for better torso twisting (though that 5 degree difference might even it out)

Direwolf

Spoiler

This guys has caused many cries of OP, borked, and broken, on the forums. Usually from the people that decided running face first at it is a good idea. It carries the exact same tonnage as an atlas with a similar engine. It has more hardpoints though, coupled with it being new, causes peoples' brains to shut down when they see the number of weapons on it. Hence the cries of OP.
Direwolf(100 tons):Completely stripped with Xl300, 15DHS, STD structure, STD armor
69.5 tons, 41 slots
Compared to the Atlas (100 tons): Compeltely stripped, with XL 300, 15DHS, STD structure, and STD armor.
69.5 tons, 41 slots.
Let's begin:
Free Tonnage: DWF at 69.5 tons, AS7 at 69.5(tie)
Engine: DWF at XL 300, AS7 variable engine with a clear advantage in this case. (goes to IS)
Free Slots: DWF at 41, AS7 at 41 (tie)
So far the IS Atlas seems to be in the lead.
Now to consider the other elements. The DWF has more hardpoints than the AS7, pure and simple. Coupled with the weight and slot saving of clan tech means it can bring more firepower than an atlas trying to run the same set up. However, that is paid for in 3 fold:
1- The Atlas is significantly more nimble than the Direwolf, even when running a similar engine, the Atlas maintains the use of arms. While the DWF's arms have no actuators to make them move as well.
2- The DWF suffers from a MASSIVE CT hitbox. By massive I mean XBAWX HUEG. Possibly the largest CT hitbox in the game, and you have to work hard to miss hitting it.
3- The pods for the arms come with added restrictions if running energy weapons on them, as they increase cycle times, meaning energy weaopns fire less frequently, while the torso pods that mount weapons penalize the mech with reduced torso twist range and speed. On top of it's abysmal rates as is.
I would count the ECM for the Atlas but that is only on the DDC, which is too specific a scenario to use.
The DWF in the end holds the advantage in hardpoints, but pays for it with increased cycle times, extra heat (if you run big guns you won't have room for DHS), and reduced mobility. If the DWF brings the same weapons set up as the Atlas to avoid the penalties, the Atlas still has the advantage of being faster, and having a significantly friendlier CT hitbox.
The Atlas has more working for it than the Direwolf. Which in this case means the Atlas has a lead. However, it's marginal enough to call it a tie.

---

At this point I would like to also remind everyone that most clan mech set ups will be lacking in AMS, as only a few specific pods can mount it per chassis, sometimes those pods mount NOTHING but that 1 AMS. While all IS mechs have access to AMS at will.
Note: The KFX right arm-C comes with it's own set of handicaps, but again, that is too specific a scenario to focus on, unless you want to?

---

Shredhead, on 26 June 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

With clan equipment taking way less tonnage and crit slots, only the sky (hardpoints) is the limit. Case in point:
Warhawk - Firepower 83.7; sustained DPS 7.03; HE 36%
Stalker - Firepower 77.7; sustained DPS 3.29; HE 17% -
WHK has more range on the ERLL, twice the range on CMPL, more speed, way better HE (Smurfy accounts for GH on HE), while the Stalker has 12 more slots left (yay)
Stormcrow - Firepower 44; sustained DPS 5.62; HE 43%
Shadowhawk - Firepower 41.8; sustained DPS 5.35; HE 43%
Stormcrow has nearly twice the range and damage on the ERSML, better speed and agility, more survivability through its XL, no worries about ammo locations and can fire its CUAC10 twice within the burn time of its lasers, giving it scary 51.8 damage dealt within one second of engagement in SRM range
These were just examples where I compared mirrored builds. Clan mechs can pack a lot more punch than any IS mech if it doesn't want to equip a ridiculously small engine.

[this entire section leads back to point Alpha]

Shredhead, on 26 June 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Which leads us to point #2:

Weapons

Spoiler

Shredhead, on 26 June 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Clan weapons do too much damage at way too low weight and crit slots.
CERSL, CERML and CMPL offer way better damage to heat ratio, damage and range than their IS counterparts. Clan large laser variants are somewhat more in line, but still offer too good performance across the board, despite their "drawbacks". Holding the laser on target for the duration is a thing you can practice and adapt to, though I admit that CERLL have some problems at range.

Energy weapons

Spoiler

Energy weapons across the board are close to balanced. There is a trade off of heat for damage, however, there are a couple of tweaks that need to be done to both them, and IS lasers, to make them more in line with what they are supposed to do, and how they should perform.
First off, I personally think the range on the C-ERLL could use some reduction.
Second, IS ML needs it's heat brought back down to 3, instead of 4, IS SL needs it's heat brought back down to 2 instead of 3. While C-ERSL needs it's heat to either remain the same or increase by 1 point in contrast to IS SL.
Other than that, the long firing time, plus cycle time, coupled with actual heat, plus ghost heat existing on all clan weapons does lend the whole set up some balance.
Not to mention the lack of a clan PPC equivalent. Clan mechs get an ERPPC that deals 10 damage (plus 2.5-5 splashed) for 15 heat. That in itself puts the PPC argument close to finished. yes it's a total of 15, but we're bringing a cone of fire (effectively) weapon, into a pinpoint fight. If the same thing happened with IS ACs the entire player base would rise in uproar.

Missiles

Spoiler

Shredhead, on 26 June 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Clan missiles (except streaks) are way too good. Across the board they way only half the tonnage, SRMs have no drawbacks at all while LRMs will have their ripple fire mitigated by the ability to do damage below 180 meters. I have to admit I really like their flight path, they work like LRMs used to in closed beta. Giving that flight path to IS LRMs as well would make a damage buff possible.

Of all the clan missile weapons, only the SRMs can be consiederd really good.
Let's start from the top, with the LRMs:
1- Ripple fire makes them almost twice as vulnerable for AMS (which effectively all IS mechs can mount)
2- C-LRMs spread more than IS LRMs.
3- Clan missiles fly at the same velocity while being in ripple fire mode, and actually the clan LRMs have a lower impulse than IS LRMs.
basically the trade off for being lighter is losing damage (AMS is more effective) and impulse. Mechs have a better chance of avoiding clan LRMs than IS LRMs because of the IS blob effect. In fact if you see a mech running 2 AMS or 3 (in the case of the kitfox), either bring IS LRMs or don't bother firing Clan LRMs.
Streak SRMs:
Clan SSRMs weight half a ton less than their IS counterpart. However, they pay for that with reduced missile speed, and egrigious cycle times. (the SSRM 6 has almost double the cycle time of an LRM 20, a weapon that deals 10 damage more than it at longer ranges). They do benefit from increased range though (360 vs. 270). However, they risk losing more missiles if fired close to max range, simply because coupled with the reduced speed, AMS does have more time to shoot down some of them.
In this case, what it really boils down to isn't the weapons themselves, but how many can be brought into the fight on one mech. The weapons as they stand are somewhat balanced, the IS get SSRM2s that fire as fast as clan SSRM2s but with faster missile velocity, while the clan get the bigger SSRM launchers at the cost of ghost heat, and increased cycle times that put the mech out of comission longe enough for people to drill a hole through it with a spoon.
SRMs:
Both IS and Clan have SRM2, SRM4, and SRM6.
Clan SRMs weight half a ton less, take a slot less (for SRM6), and have 0.08 more impulse.
However, that comes at the cost of reduced damage. IS SRMs will deal more damage, while operating at the same ranges, and same heat and ghost heat penalties.
In this case the trade off is between a lighter weapon, or one that deals more damage.
I think IS SRMs could use a buff in making their missiles each deal 2.3 or 2.4 damage instead of 2.15. However, that would give a big advantage in terms of trading. The IS weapons aresnal is already loaded with weapons that fighter in shorter bursts, and a whole lot of PP FLD.

Ballistics

Spoiler

Shredhead, on 26 June 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Clan ACs weigh less and take less slots than their IS counterparts, CUACs also have lower jam chance. Burst fire is only a problem at ranges 400+, while below that their ability to fire twice within one cooldown cycle mitigates the pin point advantage of the IS. Up close and personal they are outright stronger. Clan Gauss have no drawbacks at way lower weight and less crits.

Ok, lets' start with the fact that Clan ACs are sub-par compared to IS ACs. Oh yeah. They weigh less, they take less space, and they generate more heat because they all have ghost heat. Every single ballistic clan weapon that isn't Guass or an LB weapon has ghost heat. Whereas the IS ACs only have ghost heat on the AC2, and AC 20.
Even clan ACs (not ultras) generate more ghost heat than IS ACs with ghost heat (for example C-AC20 generates 26.40 heat when 2 are fired, compared to IS AC20 generating 23.52 when 2 are fired. AC10s, 5s, 2s, UAC2s, 5s, 10s, and 20s, all have Ghost heat.
Now let's move on to the biggest reason for why IS ballistics are at best balanced against Clan ballistics, and at worst, flat out superior to them: Firing modes.
IS ballistics fire one slug, if it hits, it deals the full damage (in the case of my Orion a whopping 20 points of it) to that one location. No other weapon in the game can deal that much damage to one location, in one second. Only the Gauss comes lose.
Clan ballistics fire in a stream, and if using ACs, instead of UACs, you also lose a slot. Regardless of the weight and slot saving, the mere fact that best a clan ballistic will deal about 25% of it's damage (possibly 50% for a UAC 2) to one location compated to an IS ballistic that will deal the full damage, means that clan ballistics are sub-optimal.
What keeps them in the game is the fact that burst fire allows the player to adjust aim mid burst, and hopefuly land partial damage from what would have been a wasted salvo.
If both players have the exact same aiming skill, and both face off against the same target, the IS ballistic mech will get the kill first.Simply because PP FLD gives that advantage. It also means that the IS mech gets to torso twist earlier than the clan mech, allowing it to spread return fire across multiple sections, while the clan mech will end up staring down opponents it doesn't want to stare down for more than 1 second.

Shredhead, on 26 June 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

CERPPCs have 50% more damage at lower weight and crits, no drawbacks.

Yeah, except for the one about that 50 percent damage no being applied where it's aimed, plus the possibility (the very likely one too) of losing 50% of that damage increase when hitting an arm.

Shredhead, on 26 June 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Point 3 - supposed drawbacks of clan tech and mechs
Clans got some unique traits in order to compensate for their superior range, less weight, superior damage and less slots. These do not work out as such. Laser duration and some pod quirks work to lengthen cooldown times, especially on lasers. This is mitigated by "Fastfire" and in the game environment is even helpful for heat dissipation. Most of the times actual combat is not even affected by this at all! Combat in MWO consists of positioning, avoiding/tanking damage, lining up the shot and firing. These actions get repeated with every weapon cycle and take usually more time than the actual weapon cooldown. Only on few occasions like brawls or for some shots out of a safe position is it even possible to fire as soon as the weapon is ready. It's still only lengthened by fractions of a second and can be adapted to with a little bit of practice. Overall DPS of clan weapons still stay superior.
Some pods also have quirks reducing torso twist rate, which is not to be mistaken for twist speed. This quirk is also mitigated by eliting the mech, superior mobility etc.

Both IS and Clan mechs have access to these same efficiencies, meaning at the end of the day, that 10% reduction is still a 10% reduction.
Torso twist rate is torso twist speed, by the way.

Shredhead, on 26 June 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Point 4 - Engines hinder clan mechs from being great
No, they don't. With exception of three of the currently available mechs, clan mechs use one of the best options, granting them superior mobility and survivability while giving more than enough pod space to pack twice the damage of an IS mech, at the same or even better HE. Clan XLs have no drawbacks, even when they lose two engine slots.
Oh, and have I mentioned free CASE everywhere already?
I'm looking forward to your response!

The summoner, T-Wolf, Stormcrow, Adder, Kitfox, Direwolf, and the Nova, mount engines that they should get out of. All of them should use different engines. In fact, if they would let me. I would upgrade the T-Wolf engine up, if possible. If not. I would drop it down to a 325 in a heartbeat. Same with the other mechs (especially with the summoner. I would downgrade that engine FAST). All of the others would perform significantly better with bigger engines.
The survivability is better than that of an IS XL, but still weaker than that of an IS STD. Which no clan mechs can mount. I would not mind slapping a STD 350 in my DWF, if I could. That would immediately give me something to do with the A variant.
The Masakari and the T-Wolf have good engines. However, as mentioned above. Only the Masakari is fine with it's current engine. The others would improve quite significantly if allowed to drop down (in the case of the T-Wolf and summoner.) or upgrade (in the case of the others.)

Edited by IraqiWalker, 21 September 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Clans will have 4 good mechs after the next wave, and 6 bad ones. They currently have 2 good ones.

They have 2 weapon boats, and 1 which may end up alright, or bad, depending on additional omnipods.



Here's a novel idea: Rather than gimp those 6 bad ones even further, target the issues directly.

These nerfs have killed my WubFox, yet have barely affected the problem builds. It's ridiculous what some people think.

Edited by Mcgral18, 21 September 2014 - 09:57 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Mcgral18, on 21 September 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

Clans will have 4 good mechs after the next wave, and 6 bad ones. They currently have 2 good ones.

They have 2 weapon boats, and 1 which may end up alright, or bad, depending on additional omnipods.



Here's a novel idea: Rather than gimp those 6 bad ones even further, target the issues directly.

These nerfs have killed my WubFox, yet have barely affected the problem builds. It's ridiculous what some people think.

Because people only care about what's killing them.

As the old example goes :

Quote

Dear devs, scissors is OP. Rock is balanced.

Sincerely, Paper

No one is talking about the fact that FF only mechs are borderline useless. No one is talking about the mother of all the problems: Instant pinpoint convergence. If we had scaling convergence, then things would be a lot better. No one is talking about the fact that we don't have all the clan systems up and running, and are already whining about them, and nerfing them, before we get the whole package to see how things stand out.

People bring up the stats of how the clans won that many matches, without thinking about how many of those matches had entire lances suicide.

No one talks about how nerfing the clan lasers was the wrong move, and how buffing the IS lasers (more like, putting them back at where they used to/should be, or un-nerfing, so to speak.) is what should have been done.

No, all they care about is that something killed them, and so it must be evil, and bad, and it couldn't possibly be balanced/their fault.

[Urza Mechwalker]

I think what needs to be done is buffign several IS mechs. Even is by adding more slots. For example. How bad woudl be to add an extra Energy slot on the arm of the dragons so It can use 1 more medium laser?


OTher thigns coudl be done like increase IS heat threshold before shutdown.

Improving IS missile arc of flight and nerfing clans arc of flight ( in the lore clans despised indirect fire so would be ok)

[IraqiWalker]

Urza Mechwalker, on 21 September 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

I think what needs to be done is buffign several IS mechs. Even is by adding more slots. For example. How bad woudl be to add an extra Energy slot on the arm of the dragons so It can use 1 more medium laser?


OTher thigns coudl be done like increase IS heat threshold before shutdown.

Improving IS missile arc of flight and nerfing clans arc of flight ( in the lore clans despised indirect fire so would be ok)

I'm waiting for the quirk pass. However, THAT is truly what needs to be done. A lot of IS mechs, and tech were nerfed way back when, and it needs to be brought back up. The solution isn't NERF EVERYTHING!. No, it's un-nerf the under-performers. They have no real reason to remain nerfed anymore.

[Adiuvo]

IraqiWalker, on 21 September 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

So yes, clan tech is OP, and P2W against staring-at-the-sun-can't-breathe-without-a-reminder-window-licking-players. I absolutely agree. It's taken months for most of us to get enough of our IS players (the ones not on the forums) to understand that IS wins at close range and hit and run, and that they should stop being delusional about beating a clan mech at range. We still have a MASSIVE chunk of the IS player base that still doesn't comprehend that.

Close range: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...92fd0b142ae9348

Or I could link the SRM Stormcrows. Or the autocannon Daishis. Or the ERSL Nova.

Hit and run? When all of clan mechs except for the lights are faster than their IS counterparts while mounting weapons that are longer range?

[FupDup]

Adiuvo, on 21 September 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

--
Hit and run? When all of clan mechs except for the lights are faster than their IS counterparts --

*And the Dire Wolf (do any serious players run below STD325-350 on their Atlai?). Nova is about average speed for a medium. Maybe a small nudge under average.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

stjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

So how do you explain the latest round of IS vs Clan testing then? You know, the one in which Clans still won 73% of matches?

Yah, pilot skill and loosened matchmaker has nothing to do with that

oh yeah and that was the pug que.

Will CW be group based or pug? Cause if its group those tests dont mean ****

[Grrzoot]

ummm no.

[Adiuvo]

FupDup, on 21 September 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

*And the Dire Wolf (do any serious players run below STD325-350 on their Atlai?). Nova is about average speed for a medium. Maybe a small nudge under average.

When the Daishi mounts as many weapons as it does and can steamroll through people, dealing with hit and run shouldn't be a problem.

It also shouldn't be in a position where it could even be harassed like that.

[Wrenchfarm]

IraqiWalker, on 21 September 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Snip

Thanks for having a better composed response than most clan players, but I still disagree on several points.

Mainly, I don't think IS mechs truly have an advantage in a brawl. Clans dominate at range, then largely match IS mechs in a brawl. Yes their weapons are hotter and the lasers have more burn time, but that ignores all the clan weapons that work just fine in a brawl. LBXs, SRMs, point blank Goose and PPCs, etc. Even their lurms by virtue of their flight pattern are easier to use in the 200-300m range and have the added bonus of screenshaking the other guy to pieces. They have crazy high alphas, can tank comparatively more damage with torso twisting, and generally have speeds rivaling or excelling IS equivalents in their weight class (with the exception of Clan lights).

So what you have are Clan mechs that get to pick apart the IS at range, and when they eventually close, get to match them in a brawl but will win since the IS are already half dead due to ranged fire. You want to take about hit and run and stuff, but Clan mechs are just as mobile or more than their IS counterparts and just as good at dumping FL PPD with a few exceptions (Nova). They can employ the exact same tactics to just as good (better) results.

My comparison between the Nova and HBK-4P is apt. Saying the Clan lasers have longer burn times is true, but also ignores the extra damage. If your clan ERMLAS stays on target for 1 second (the entire IS burn time) of it's 1.25 second fire duration, it does better damage than the IS version. If the target twists or you shake your aim and the last .25 seconds of burn time go off target, it's just added bonus aggravated damage to other components. If you're good enough to make use of the full 1 second burn time of IS MLAS, you will always do better with ERMLAS. Not to mention the higher effective range since brawling occurs anywhere from 0-400m. While the IS MLAS lose damage, the ERMLAS keeps right on trucking.

I don't think Clantech is superior in just the PuG ghetto. I think if you got two comp teams together and had them play Clan Vs IS (say 10 games total, 5 games as each side), the Clan teams would win HANDILY. Clans simply have every advantage and it's ridiculous to say otherwise.

Again, if the game had active CW and Clans and IS were fighting with asymmetrical teams, only IS had access to support arty, etc, it would all be a different story. But I live in the real world where MWO is just a random arena shooter where the team that happens to draw more Clan mechs tends to win.

[IraqiWalker]

Adiuvo, on 21 September 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Close range: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...92fd0b142ae9348

Or I could link the SRM Stormcrows. Or the autocannon Daishis. Or the ERSL Nova.

Hit and run? When all of clan mechs except for the lights are faster than their IS counterparts while mounting weapons that are longer range?

Hit and run relies on cover, so you are engaging within your comfort zone. I'm talking about popping out within 300-400 meters, firing, and then, diving behind cover again. Either the same brick you were behind, or another one.

As for the close range builds, yes, clan mechs have close range builds, no one said they didn't. It's not their strongest suit. That Timberwolf build is actually a good example of that. It's got +10% heat damage, +10% increased missile cool down.

That means it fires less often, and when it over heats, it damages itself more. Couple that with the heat on the ERMLs, alone, and pressuring one into firing more than it can handle is very easy.

As for the DWF. Everyone knows that all you need to do is just side step around them. Almost all DWFs have no lateral arm movement, can't torso twist to save it's life, and can be out-maneuvered by every other mech on the field, short of ones running insanely low engines (like 100-125 engine ratings low).

Yes, it shouldn't get into a position where it can get harassed like that, but it happens, a lot. Not to mention that every now and then, you don't have a tunnel to funnel your kills towards you, and they circle you, or your team blunders. It happens.

As stated above, it's a very binary mech. When it works, it eats everything, and when it doesn't, it barely puts a dent in the enemy team.

Wrenchfarm, on 21 September 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

Thanks for having a better composed response than most clan players, but I still disagree on several points.

Maybe because I'm an IS player (JK, no offense to my test tube friends)


I'm gonna go through your post in sections, if you don't mind. Makes things easier to relate and understand for me.

Wrenchfarm, on 21 September 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

Mainly, I don't think IS mechs truly have an advantage in a brawl. Clans dominate at range, then largely match IS mechs in a brawl. Yes their weapons are hotter and the lasers have more burn time, but that ignores all the clan weapons that work just fine in a brawl. LBXs, SRMs, point blank Goose and PPCs, etc. Even their lurms by virtue of their flight pattern are easier to use in the 200-300m range and have the added bonus of screenshaking the other guy to pieces. They have crazy high alphas, can tank comparatively more damage with torso twisting, and generally have speeds rivaling or excelling IS equivalents in their weight class (with the exception of Clan lights).

1-LRMs have reduced guidance at close range, meaning that at under 200 meters, they have a very solid chance of completely missing their target. However, they do cause screen shake when they do hit. Which is actually more damaging than the minuscule damage they do.

2- Gauss for clans works the same as Gauss for IS. It's 3 tons lighter though, and the only weapon that is just objectively better than it's IS counterpart. (Clan LBX-10 comes close, but it has shorter range than the IS LBX-10, Gauss has same damage, same range, but less cost)

3- Clan SRMs are a debate-able point, I think they're fine. Maybe their CDs could be increased by 0.2-0.3 seconds.

4- If clan mechs are equipping ammo using weapons at all, their construction will force ammo to be placed in the side torsos, meaning that a single crit could remove all the HP on that torso and instead of wasting 30+ points of damage to take it out, you only needed 5 to cook off the ammo in there, and remove it.

5- If you are going to count point blank gauss for them, along with PPCs (they only have ERs, and trust me, many want regular ones), you should count those for IS as well.

Wrenchfarm, on 21 September 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

So what you have are Clan mechs that get to pick apart the IS at range, and when they eventually close, get to match them in a brawl but will win since the IS are already half dead due to ranged fire. You want to take about hit and run and stuff, but Clan mechs are just as mobile or more than their IS counterparts and just as good at dumping FL PPD with a few exceptions (Nova). They can employ the exact same tactics to just as good (better) results.

PP FLD is landing your damage with one shot in one location. The clans only have Gauss, and ERPPCs to do that. While the IS has Gauss, PPCs, ERPPCs, and all their ballistics as well.

What you are describing, is how clan pilots should operate, and IS pilots should be trying to rob them of that tempo. Instead of engaging in futile long range engagements that are already forfeit. IS pilots should be closing in on clan mechs. Yes, most clan mechs are fast, however, other than the T-Wolf, most of them move at comparable speeds to their IS counterparts. When engaging in hit and run, hit and fade, whatever you want to name it. What matters is the exposure time. Unless they are waiting for you, and know you are popping out of there right then and there, you will be able to deliver a salvo and hide with little to no return fire. They start chasing you, lead them into a trap. If it's one v one, then make them fire on you as often as possible, and spread that damage. You can deliver a full alpha and twist to spread damage before they can.

Wrenchfarm, on 21 September 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

My comparison between the Nova and HBK-4P is apt. Saying the Clan lasers have longer burn times is true, but also ignores the extra damage. If your clan ERMLAS stays on target for 1 second (the entire IS burn time) of it's 1.25 second fire duration, it does better damage than the IS version. If the target twists or you shake your aim and the last .25 seconds of burn time go off target, it's just added bonus aggravated damage to other components. If you're good enough to make use of the full 1 second burn time of IS MLAS, you will always do better with ERMLAS. Not to mention the higher effective range since brawling occurs anywhere from 0-400m. While the IS MLAS lose damage, the ERMLAS keeps right on trucking.

That argument is still ignoring the heat and cycle times. I agree that ERMLs deal more damage in the same time, and the fix for that isn't by nerfing the ERML. It's by un-nerfing the IS ML, and putting it's heat back to 3. That way you have a proper trade in of damage for heat. Instead of this 7 damage 6 heat compared to 5 damage 4 heat nonsense.

Wrenchfarm, on 21 September 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

I don't think Clantech is superior in just the PuG ghetto. I think if you got two comp teams together and had them play Clan Vs IS (say 10 games total, 5 games as each side), the Clan teams would win HANDILY. Clans simply have every advantage and it's ridiculous to say otherwise.

Again, if the game had active CW and Clans and IS were fighting with asymmetrical teams, only IS had access to support arty, etc, it would all be a different story. But I live in the real world where MWO is just a random arena shooter where the team that happens to draw more Clan mechs tends to win.

I honestly don't see the advantage being THAT big. Not really.

[Kin3ticX]

Clan Deck

• 3 DWFs
  
• 3 TBRs
  
• 3 SCRs
  
• 3 KFXs

IS deck

• 3 AS7
  
• 3 CTFs
  
• 3 SHDs
  
• 3 JR7s

hmmmmmmm

[Mcgral18]

IraqiWalker, on 21 September 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

3- Clan SRMs are a debate-able point, I think they're fine. Maybe their CDs could be increased by 0.2-0.3 seconds.

Leave cSRMs as they are, give isSRMs dead-fire warheads.

2.5-3 damage, twice the weight, 50% more damage is a fair trade off.

Kin3ticX, on 21 September 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Clan Deck

• 3 DWFs
  
• 3 TBRs
  
• 3 SCRs
  
• 3 KFXs

IS deck

• 3 AS7
  
• 3 CTFs
  
• 3 SHDs
  
• 3 JR7s

hmmmmmmm

Needs Moar Wub.

[IraqiWalker]

Mcgral18, on 21 September 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Leave cSRMs as they are, give isSRMs dead-fire warheads.

2.5-3 damage, twice the weight, 50% more damage is a fair trade off.

I like that idea a lot. If memory serves me, dead-fire warheads also have faster projectile speed?