319 replies to this topic

[Kavoh]

I agree with Russ that this is a very delicate situation.

On one hand, earlier today I went 0-9 against teams of 8-12 back to back to back. I was so sick of it I almost wanted to ditch my team mate to go solo que because they were all 1-2 / 12 games every match. I would manage to scrape a kill or 2 each game that would keep me contented to continue queing, but it was very demoralizing.

I felt like I wanted something done to change this.

After that, I had about 6 games in which I won 5 which were all groups of 2-3 against groups of 2-3. They were some fun games.

Suddenly I didn't feel it was so bad and cooled off from the constant rolling. But it was all chance.

On the other hand, I have faced 12 mans in the past that have lost, which either made stupid mistakes, or we had 3 groups of 4 that worked well together. Note, this was -rare-, and is NOT the norm. So using this as an excuse to stop any kinds of fixes is ridiculous.

More importantly though, before the clan invasion I had played in a clan that dropped regularly as a large group (This was the time of 8 mans I believe). Then they implemented the change in which after 4 you would face a pure 8 man team vs 8 man team.

This was ok... if you had a constant eight. But then there were the nights where you had to drop or bench up to 3 players to just drop a 4 man, because you didn't have that 8th. That -sucked-. No one wants to be that guy that has to tell 3 others they have to sit because we don't have the eighth, which ended up being the birth of sync drop spam.

Now that I am back down to 2 man at this time, its either don't play with my teammate, or join a group que in which I will 2/3 times get placed in a game where I am on a team of groups of 2-3 against 8+. It gets worse when I get a lucky streak of games and win 8/10 in games of 2-3 mans vs 2-3 mans where people communicate and play well, and then hit a wall of premades that with little effort farms us back down regardless our teams communication.

I currently am ~slightly~ ok with how it is now, compared to changing it back to something that will be miserable for everyone. But full 10+ mans is unacceptable against pure teams of 2-3. Its glorified pub smashing. Anyone that is smart enough to feed themselves in a 10 man can beat a 2-3 filled team. If you HAVE to have 10 mans in the que, put the 10 mans against other 10 mans with 2 player team fillers, not this 10-12+~2 v 2/2/2/2/2/2. Maybe even go down to 8 being 8 player teams + 4 player teams vs each other. Sure it would take a bit longer of a que, but if all this "small group smashing isn't fun for us, we aren't here for cbills/xp/etc, we are here to get better as a team", it will be perfect.

[Thorn Hallis]

KingCobra, on 22 September 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

I have the perfect answer to the group MM queues problems but like everything else on these forums it always is over shouted and under valued.

Game already has that. Its called "Private Matches".

[Valore]

I propose a small compromise.

Solo droppers can 'opt in' to the group queue. If they are placed into a group game, they get a Cbill/XP bonus, say 10%.

Groups of less than 4 similarly get a 10% Cbill/XP bonus when matched against an enemy team with an 8+ group.

That way, people can tell if the MM is giving them a hard time, and they get a bonus for facing sterner opposition.

[Appogee]

Ryokens leap, on 22 September 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

You let you're 10 and 11 year olds play a murder simulator?

My son has been playing Mechwarrior in various forms with me since he was 5.

Should I be concerned that one day he will take a giant robot to school and start shooting other giant robots with it?

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Don't touch the group numbers; that would bring the house down again; the numbers work fine.

Do remove the hard locks on game mode to the preference system and make the MM rate finding good matches above game type preference...

Group que is group que nuff said.

[Appogee]

Valore, on 22 September 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

Solo droppers can 'opt in' to the group queue. If they are placed into a group game, they get a Cbill/XP bonus, say 10%.

Hell no. I want only competent pilots on my team, and on the enemy team.

[Valore]

Appogee, on 22 September 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

Hell no. I want only competent pilots on my team, and on the enemy team.

That's a terrible mentality to have. Assuming everyone in the solo queue is bad is the kind of labelling that's made the forums such a toxic place tbh.

[Ghogiel]

Arend, on 22 September 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Atm playing in a Group of 2 or 3 is a pain and usually not fun, matches like this are rather the norm than the exception

I do ok in a 2 man against 8-12mans. unless it's one of the top comp teams it's no bother.

Russ Bullock, on 22 September 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

Honestly any groups in the solo queue really screws it up. The solo Queue right now is actually pretty amazing with an average team elo difference of around 40. Exact weight class matching 95% of the time etc.

It is the group queue that is frustrating players - especially groups on the smaller side.

It sounds amazing.. but averging the team Elo and saying look it's close to 40 points is bad.

since the Elo range is so big, what is it, still 1000 points? what can happen is one team gets a high elo player and bunch of bads, which will do double digit dam, the other can have a nicer grouping of Elo range. What needs to happen is that there should never be a player hundreds of Elo points away from another in the same match.

Edited by Ghogiel, 22 September 2014 - 11:36 PM.

[Jonathan Paine]

Main problem the group queue:
Matchmaker allows "competitive" 12 man groups to drop against several smaller groups, and even aloows the smaller groups to be out-tonned as as skilled.
There absolutely no rewards for that predetermined loss. Money and XP is silly calculation that ignores Elo differences. Who thought was great idea?

If you can't fix match making, fix rewards. If a team has 1 in 100 chance winning, give them 100x the reward. Give the other 1/100 rewards. Problem solved.

Edited by Jonathan Paine, 22 September 2014 - 11:54 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Jonathan Paine, on 22 September 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

If you fix match making, fix rewards. If a team has 1 in 100 chance winning, give them 100x the reward. Give the other 1/100 rewards. Problem solved.

Sounds interesting. But should only get that if they actually win though.

[mrdead69]

Please what ever you do, do not take away the ability for me to play with my mates no matter the group size! One of the major reasons behind a large amount of people leaving my gaming circle was the inability to get together as a group larger than 4. I'm not talking about this from a competitive aspect as i feel that private matches/lobbies have fixed that. What killed this game for me was being unable to get 12 guys into a TS channel, talk **** and have fun shooting big ******* 'mechs in the face with really big weapons. Now that I can do that again I have come back to the game and (here's a big one for your employee's that like eating) have been spending money!

The only annoying part of the matchmaking process ATM for me is sorting out who is bring what class mech While I can understand the frustration of people not in large groups coming up against them, I feel the proper solution is for a decent in-game method of communication (not necessarily voice but that's a pretty obvious and well used option or hell a Battlefield style radial menu for giving instructions or pointing stuff out). Again, Please do not gimp the ability to have fun with my mates by taking a knee-jerk option!

[kapusta11]

PGI should make a competitive queue with no rules whatsoever, no 3/3/3/3, no ELO no nothing.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

kapusta11, on 23 September 2014 - 12:44 AM, said:

PGI should make a competitive queue with no rules whatsoever, no 3/3/3/3, no ELO no nothing.

Yes make more small ques with even less people in them.

[Steel Claws]

12 man teams don't win every time by any means, I see them loose about as often as they win. Further 12 man groups are pretty darn scarce. I rarely see one. Should they end up searching for a drop indefinitely? Normally when I drop in a group it's anywhere from 2-6.

I saw something today that made me laugh. Someone on the other team was complaining about running into premades because it wasn't fair - yet his team also had 3 groups dropping. Both teams had a few players from the solo queue thrown in to make the drop. The reason we won was that our team didn't play foolishly - not because we had 3 premades.

What so many fail to see in all this I that when you start dealing with uneven groups, the players necessary to complete the drop HAVE to come from some where. Otherwise we set waiting long periods of time waiting for a drop. Any group can be beat if the players play smart. If you don't play smart it won't matter if you are facing 12 person groups or 12 solos. I see so many times we will call out - "hey go here" and the solo players do the exact opposite, run off on their own, or simply charge the whole other team. I see players complaining about loosing 12 games straight and there is usually a reason for that and it is setting behind their keyboard. Basically it really doesn't matter how many are grouped up on the other team if you play it smart. Do things like use cover, don't block one another, don't bottle yourselves into a small area, kill UAVs as soon as you see them. Then there is the quickest way to loose of all... go to some spot on the map and just set. Teams that try to turtle up almost always loose cause they get flanked and there is the constant erosion of their armor by LRMs. Aggressive team almost always win yet most players want to go somewhere an set. End rant.

Basically if you want reasonable search times, you have to do some mix and match.

[Action Man]

Thing is everyone can win or lose, there are so many deciding factors, the 12 mans or 6+ often competitive groups can all be beaten, while I could just say that perhaps we should look inward how we did that match ourselves instead of finding excuses etc.
but enough on here already have indicated that one way or another.

U can't please everyone, many have tried but all fail I the end, for now the current system works best for now. but before we start fiddling with it, we should wait until CW starts. with new game modes, mech restrictions and it being opt in, this will have an impact as well. as a few may not take part. and some of those in steiner or davion colours used to rollin in 10+ clan meta mechs will have a rude awakening feeling gimped in IC tech.

Its fine now, but with improvement needed as with everything in life, I will reserve judgement until CW is in full swing

[NeoCodex]

Russ Bullock, on 22 September 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Getting on with it, isn't possible. Any change we make is viewed as a fatal error by some and the right move by others. We need more agreement on what the best trade offs are. A few things to keep in mind: 1) Solo queue was very upset that any groups at all were in and wiping them. 2) Putting all 2-3 man groups in with the solo queue means removing groups of 9 and 10 from the group queue. We can make this a lot more competitive but you guys need to let me know what is acceptable. Off the top of my head if we could put groups of 2 and 3 in solo queue and restrict group queue to group sizes of 4, 8 and 12. Then make game mode selection a vote instead of a hard stop. Then make groups of 4 made up of one of each weight class, groups of 8 made of of 2 of each weight class, finally 12 mans made up of the 3,3,3,3. The match maker would have a grand time of putting matches together.

Fully support this, it seems like a good compromise. You can still play 12v12, or do it with 8+4. much, much better than 8+2+2 or 9+3, while keeping 1-3 man groups in the solo. Let's get rid of the these odd numbers in the group queue, I say. If you allready have 9 people it shouldn't be too hard to get them 12 or split down to 8. But it would mean a huge deal to all those small groups and families.

It's not about winning or losing. Most of us should and probably will keep the near 1.0 win ratio, what the ideal matchmaker should be achieving anyway. But it's about having a good game. And getting a couple of friends together in groups of 2-3 on evenings to have some fun, than being completely stomped 50% of the time by competitive 12man every time is not fun. I do not care about the number of them wins, but I would like to have an option to just drop with my friend that is either new to the game or play with 2 of my friends if we just want to play some pugging together for a change. And you can still try and drop in a 4man for a more serious game, so you have all the choices laid out for you. Let's just hope matchmaker would be able to work with this.

I'm not saying 12mans win every time - they don't, but it's the boogeyman that keeps small groups from even to keep trying to play the game in groups again, not to mention play with a new friend to teach him the game basics, I would certainly not invite him in the environment where he can face top comp teams on the other side on a regular basis in the first week of playing. So I am not even remotely trying to bring any of my friends to the game, because there is no reason for us to play together unless he invests a several hundred games of solo play to catch up.

Edited by NeoCodex, 23 September 2014 - 02:22 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Steel Claws, on 23 September 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

Both teams had a few players from the solo queue thrown in to make the drop.

No they didn't. No solo players are in the group queue.

[Triordinant]

NeonKnight, on 22 September 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

I know I'm gonna get flamed, and so be.

Get rid of SOLO QUEUE and GROUP QUEUEs.

really

Put it back the way it was originally. If I drop in a group of 7, fine, give me 5 pugs. If the other team is all PUGS fine. If I'm in a group of 3 with 9 pugs vs a 12 man....FINE! Doesn't guarantee me and my friends an easy win. Nope, no way. And if people honestly think it does, I'm sorry.

As it currently stands I am finding getting matches harder and harder. I HATE Skirmish. I HATE dropping solo, and honestly feel that I am seen only as a source of $$$.

We have fractured the player base by seperating out the SOLO from the GROUP. and then further fractured out those groups into CONQUEST, ASSAULT, SKIRMISh or some combination. If everyone just put their big-boy pants on, sucked it and accepted sometimes, as in WAR things aren't fair, then so be it.

Not happening. PGI already knows keeping groups out of the solo queue is a good idea.

[Appogee]

Valore, on 22 September 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

That's a terrible mentality to have. Assuming everyone in the solo queue is bad is the kind of labelling that's made the forums such a toxic place tbh.

I don't have to "assume" anything ... I regularly have matches in the solo queue where I directly experience what happens when a couple of experienced players are grouped with very inexperienced players.

It leads to bad matches for all of us ... those expected to carry the new pilots, and the new pilots who get slaughtered by the few experienced pilots on the other team.

So, it's not a mentality, it's a reality.

And that is why I want pilots of the same competence on both sides of the battle. Newer and less experienced pilots fighting people at the same level of competence, growing their skills. Older and more experienced pilots can be challenged by equally skilled pilots.

Edited by Appogee, 23 September 2014 - 04:21 AM.

[Roadbuster]

Ghogiel, on 22 September 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

The steering wheel underhive is in the solo queue. >_>

Do you sometimes take the time and spectate some of your teammates when not playing in a full group?
(Ya, sometimes I die early because I'm too aggressive and want to do too much, ending in a quick death and some time to watch others ><)

Sometimes you have to wonder if people have figured out that they can turn their legs, or that there are 2 crosshairs, or that red is enemy and blue is friend, that ML don't hit at 1500m and IS LRMs have a minimum range, or that you can even shoot at mechs without a big red square around them.
And you let such players fight against premade 9-12 man groups with voicecom and well-matched meta builds?
Just saying that the steering wheel underhive can hit everywhere.

Matchmaker does a good job. It's just that small groups shouldn't be matched against full 12 man premades.
Give 12 man premades their own queue, just like the solo queue.
And to help preventing abuse by creating 10-11 man groups, give them some reward only available through 12 man matches.

Regarding the restrictions for matchmaking, I don't really care about the game mode or which mech I pilot.
It should be possible to have 2 mechs with the same weight class in a team though.
Forcing players to play a weight class they don't like, just to be able to play in a group, is not a good idea.
If anything, players should be encouraged to join groups and play together.

NeoCodex, on 23 September 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

I'm not saying 12mans win every time - they don't, but it's the boogeyman that keeps small groups from even to keep trying to play the game in groups again, not to mention play with a new friend to teach him the game basics, I would certainly not invite him in the environment where he can face top comp teams on the other side on a regular basis in the first week of playing. So I am not even remotely trying to bring any of my friends to the game, because there is no reason for us to play together unless he invests a several hundred games of solo play to catch up.

^ this

Edited by Roadbuster, 23 September 2014 - 04:42 AM.