128 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

Are we still arguing whether or not the Jaguars got annihilated? In 2012?

[Chuggernaut]

To be fair, they JUST got done killing off the last survivors (Russou Howell and his bandit crew).

[Rush Maguin]

...until the Jaguar descendants - under Paul Moon, no less - are "released from the service" to the Republic in the Dark Age timeline. Behold, Smoke Jaguars. Also in one of the jihad books (later ones, last or second to last) there's a track where you meet Jaguar survivors. Being a Smoke Jaguar player doesn't mean you have a dead clan faction, but that you have a near extinct clan faction with interesting stories left to tell. 99.99 percent of the clan -was- decisively destroyed if you want to take that road on the issue, but present and future "canon" shows that not every jag met the reaper.

[FireNova]

Chuggernaut, on 26 June 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

To be fair, they JUST got done killing off the last survivors....

To be fair as well, might as well bring these things up if Catalyst lore is going to be the basis here.

1) Surrender Your Dreams would like to disagree. Hatred of Dark Age though means it will never be acknowledged about hence Jaguars will still be blamed unchallenged.

2) Clan Jade Falcon last I checked went on a murderous rampage in the Dark Age era (thanks to Malvina Hazen no less). Course because of the whole hatred of Dark Age means it will never be acknowledged and thus the bias against SJ continues unchallenged.

3) Comstar/Word of Blake controls ALL HPG communications and most (if not all obviously) media stations that broadcast news throughout the Inner Sphere. So of course what you hear from Comstar will automatically be taken as "truth" by most people who don't know any better (or have common sense for that matter) similar to how liberal media news outlets will repeat the "old lie" technique. "Repeat a lie enough times and it becomes truth and none will be the wiser." Anyone who believes that Comstar is a neutral entity (let alone believes that they are neutral despite evidence in the lore to the contrary.....lol....)....does CSJ control ALL media and attempt BRAINWASHING like the Word of Blake/Comstar did? Did they NUKE entire planets to kingdom come simply because they could????? Oh snap some people HATE the Jihad era of BattleTech so lets SCRATCH THAT off as well. 0_o

4) BattleTech reeks of real life politics injected into it. Proof: Fourth Succession War. Nothing says neutral like "blackout" of all HPG stations in Davion space to slow down and finally halt Davion's march to consume the weakened and desperate Capellan Confederation not to mention the obvious references to the Cold War (evil Chinese communists/NK anyone)? Need to fool the common people into thinking you are the good guys? No problem! Just mix up technology with religion and BAM you are everyone's god and may NONE dare challenge your reign over technology that the House Lords would KILL to have for that would invoke the wrath of "The Master" or whatever they like to call themselves to "shock and awe" the common citizen of the Inner Sphere. At least Clan Diamond Shark/Sea Fox was willing to SELL Clan tech perhaps at the VERY least instead of going all "LULZ WE HOG ALL DIS TA OURSALVES" *trollface*.

5) Now why is it the Warden (liberal) Clans were favored in the lore over the Crusader (conservative) Clans again? Oh wait.....

6) Oh btw House Marik fans (Free Worlds League)...if I were you guys.....id be ******** in my pants right about now (or later on in the storyline anyways considering Word of Blake infiltrates almost every aspect of Marik society let alone political, financial, military, etc.....) 0_0 Can you imagine if the Jaguars were to do this?.....I guess THEN you could say they would be every bit the evil Diablo III like demons, evil hellspawn that most people would like to REALLY see them as....just SLAP A J FOR JAGUAR NEXT TO IT AND ALL IS GOOD. :/ Tell you what, maybe if the devs allow us to infiltrate (or try at least) the Draconis Combine's every part of their society and conspire to destroy the faction from within then MAYBE I can possibly agree with you on the Jaguars being evil. Sound fair? Good to hear. Im sure Goonswarm (Liao) would be proud....*they'll probably do it to the Davions long before then anyways*...LOL.

7) This and more later on the Comstar broadcast network.....now back to you bob...."

[Shaft McCavity]

Show me your Smoke Jaguar tattoo.

[FireNova]

Rush Maguin, on 26 June 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Being a Smoke Jaguar player doesn't mean you have a dead clan faction, but that you have a near extinct clan faction with interesting stories left to tell.

And here is where the million dollar question comes into play....even the newest of people that get involved in this game will see...if they look up a bit of the lore and find out "oh well SJ will be nearly wiped out and have no InnerSphere/Homeworlds planets then why should I play as them when the Clan Invasion launches?"

Just look at the "Which Invading Clan will you join?" thread for those who care. SJ came in LAST (for reasons that should be obvious) in votes. Now what does that mean for the faction? (Poll could be entirely wrong but so far its a good indicator.....not to mention the constant, unrelenting mention of Jaguar evils on the forums and other factions evils swept under the rug). Less competitveness, less ability to handle massive waves of attacks, less popularity, etc. The fact that the "canon" backs up this bias against the Jaguars does not help the faction from a gameplay standpoint.

Yes, I said what most people seem to miss (or ignore for that matter). EVERY OTHER FACTION IS GUARANTEED TO STAY IN THE GAME. ONLY THE SMOKE JAGUARS ARE IN QUESTION BASED ON LORE. HENCE, LESS PLAYERS, LESS COMPETITIVENESS, MARGINALIZED FANBASE/PLAYERBASE AND EVENTUAL REMOVAL FROM COMPETITION ENTIRELY. Now how many MMOs remove entire factions simply based on the "canon"? I know WoW wouldn't remove the Horde/Alliance let alone the races in that game. The outrage would be immense. Course since the Jaguars are "inconsequential" due to the low numbers/popularity it wouldn't cause much of a ruckus. Hows that for convenience for the SJ haters? No matter what happens the "evil Jaguar players" lose and the "good guy Comstar/WoB you know whatever" wins. If this sounds crazy.....well..."the lore is the law you know?" :/ Sounds good from a lore perspective....gameplay perspective....not so much.

[DS Mandos]

Smiling with my multi-row of sharp teeth. Listing to the "Land born" food that will fall with a slash of my powerful jaws.

This Diamond Shark is just waiting for the right time to strike.

[Allen Wren]

FireNova, on 26 June 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

moralequivalencymoralequivalencymoralequivalencymoralequivalency

And since when does "other people are bad too" mean that the Jags get off scot-free?

[BlackAbbot]

So Clan Smoke Jaguar are the bad guys, right?

[Bongo TauKat]

I will always be of the clans. I have always loved the whole tribal, warrior bound traditions. Zelbrigen appealed to me in MW4 as the a great challenge to fight one on one, targeting the mech without legging or using a heavier mech to fight.

On top of that, Clan Star Adder was my home on the net from 99 to 05. We always talked, we loved to game, hell we even had a vacation get together to discuss strategy in NBT-4. I hope to get together again and revive CSA to another round of good times.

[Chuggernaut]

If you're worried about that, I'm going to quote Stackpole on this:
"Pick a better faction next time."
He then went on to say that the Jags were written from the start to be unapologetically evil so that the IS would want to join and wipe them out. The events are planned years, even a decade in advance. They don't just randomly do these things. FASA also created the FRR specifically so the Clans could level a whole nation. The Jags' fate was sealed from the moment they were introduced.

But thanks for the "ComStar is a liberal media conspiracy!!!!" bit. That was worth a laugh.

[Yvraith]

I'll play as a clanner eventually.

My TT mechwarrior, is a freeborn Jade Falcon, bonded to a Kuritan in the Merc Company all my guys play.
I love the twists in how the clans work on the table, especially as we RP all of the radio chatter etc.

We had a mission where I asked to be allowed to follow Zellbrigen (which was granted) & then one of the other players characters fired on my mech.... very interesting times...
Some tense moments for the GM when a Clanner piloting a Banshee starts taking aim at the rear armour of a lance mates, light mech with his Gauss Rifle, due to the lack of honour of it all.... ah the memories...

[Chuggernaut]

Sounds like your Clanner should have gone for Bondsref instead, if he was gonna be a drama queen.

[Jaroth Corbett]

OK I love the Clans & I play with a great group of guys from Smoke Jaguar for MW4, but the lore is the lore. Sorry FireNova, the Jaguars got annihilated. If you read any of the sourcebooks you would know that annihilated does not have to mean destroyed to the last person. Annihilated takes a new meaning when it comes to the Clans. Clans have been annihilated and their members absorbed by the Clan doing the "annihilating".

Annihilation in the Clan sense means removal as an operational entity & the Jaguars were. To put everything into context so we can finally stop beating this dead horse:

1. The Clans are a pyramid with the Warriors on top. Even though they are the smallest percentage of a Clan, without warriors to defend & fight for it, it is considered up for grabs.

2. Operations Bulldog & Serpent were both a success. Not only did the "Star League" defeat the Jaguar warriors, they seized possession of the genetic repository which meant no other warriors would be able to be created.

Quote

Even now, these barbarians are attacking the home-world of Clan Smoke Jaguar. Reports state that they have seized Mount Szabo and our genetic repository.

Shadows of War - Pg.9

Quote

Winston called the battle a victory for her side, since the planetary capital, its spaceport, and more importantly, Mount Szabo, the Jaguar's figurative heart, with its now smashed command control and communication center and the undamaged genetic repository, remained in the hands of the Inner Sphere forces.

Shadows of War - Pg.110

Quote

We will retain possession of the genetic repository in that area, keeping it functional and not destroying it.

Prince of Havoc - Pg.108

3. The other Clans saw the Jaguars as annihilated:

Quote

The flesh around Osis' eyes tightened. "Khan Ward, what is the meaning of your occupying the Smoke Jaguar position here in the Grand Council?"


Vlad smiled slowly. "As I understand it, ilKhan, there are no Smoke Jaguar Khans available to the Council, and no Smoke Jaguars available to elect more. You and a handful of your warriors escaped Huntress—apparently even before Inner Sphere reinforcements arrived there, if reports are correct Of those warriors who fled with you, only eight, have bloodnames. Your Clan is effectively dead."

Vlad let an icy tone sharpen his words, but not a single one of his fellow Khans raised a protest.

Prince of Havoc - Pg.19

Quote

The Annihilation of Clan Smoke Jaguar at the hands of the Second Star League prompted a number of some-what unexpected effects on the Clans as a whole. The most obvious was the upswing of petty squabbles and miniature wars that broke out between those who fought to seize control of the now-dead Clan’s holdings.

War of Reaving - Pg.12

If Clan A wants something that Clan B has, the warriors of A challenge the warriors of B to a Trial of Possession. If B has no warriors, warriors from A, C-Z will then fight amongst each other for the spoils a.k.a isorla. Since there were no Jaguar warriors to challenge, this is what took place.


The remains of the Jaguars are seen as part of the dark caste.

Quote

The Tanis system could also call upon various Bandit Caste forces in the area, though these rarely exceeded a few Trinaries in size. The largest bandit force was the Jaguar’s, based off the decrepit CSJ Streaking Mist; he was able to muster nearly four Clusters of warriors, though where he got his recruits from remains unknown.

Wars of Reaving - Pg.89

Whatever scraps got cobbled together after Bulldog & Serpent does not negate what took place earlier. To step out of our universe for a minute think of the Empire in Star Wars. By the time they got to the Jedi Outcast game, they were known as the Remnant. They had the same ships, uniforms & weapons but they were a shadow of what they once were & were identified as such. I have no hate for the Jaguars, I am speaking strictly from a lore point of view.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 28 May 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Lord Exalted]

House of davion will win out. clanners are to constricted and out numbered to win. true courage is from a normal man not a gene bred super soilder

[Bongo TauKat]

Lord Exalted, on 26 June 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

House of davion will win out. clanners are to constricted and out numbered to win. true courage is from a normal man not a gene bred super soilder

I don't think that goes with the "Why You Are a Clanner" topic.

[MC Hammer]

I have hated Clan tech since the 90's when i played TT and the buddy's house we went to allowed clan tech for himself and not anybody else.

Screw clan tech, screw it in its bloody rear.

[JackCrow]

One cluster of Jags were absorbed by Clan Wolf in Exile. I am sure some warriors of Jaguar origin are still running around Clan Jade Falcon and Wolf as a result of the Harvest Trials. But that Clan is as dead as can be.

Evidently the Smoke Jaguars were so brutal that even the other Crusaders couldn't stand them. Vlad Ward and Marthe Pryde had no problem with throwing that Clan under the bus.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Actually they threw themselves under the bus.

[JackCrow]

DS Mandos, on 26 June 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Smiling with my multi-row of sharp teeth. Listing to the "Land born" food that will fall with a slash of my powerful jaws.

This Diamond Shark is just waiting for the right time to strike.

Does that mean you are going try and sell me a dropship full of spare parts? You guys are like the Wall Street Bankers of the Clans.