184 replies to this topic

[Maxx Blue]

I guess I don't really understand the idea that 1-1-1-1 will be all that well balanced. If I drop a Locust 3S, Cicada 3C, a Quickdraw 4G and an Awesome 8R, that isn't going to be anything close to balanced compared to a Kit Fox, Stormcrow, Timberwolf and Direwolf. Not only is it 60T lighter, it is still full of pretty crappy mechs. The only thing that will keep 1-1-1-1 close to balanced is the same thing that would keep tonnage limits balanced: Most players will try to bring a viable set of mechs that maximizes their chances of winning. 1-1-1-1 doesn't stop imbalance or trolling, it just changes the exact mechanics of the imbalance and trolling you end up with. Nothing in 1-1-1-1 is stopping anyone from picking a mech in each weight class, loading it with LRM5's and a TAG, or from running nothing but flamers, or doing a raven/hunch/jaeger/victor drop of nothing but AC20's. Trolls will troll, no matter what. The ONLY thing that 1-1-1-1 does is to limit the potential tonnage difference between any two possible drop ships to 65 tons. You could do the exact same thing with tonnage limits by setting a minimum and maximum drop weight that are 65T apart. 1-1-1-1 doesn't even promote diversity, it just changes which set of 4 mechs will be optimal.

The advantage to tonnage limits is that it allows players to have more choice in the mechs they want to play. If you still want to build a 1-1-1-1 drop ship, with tonnage limits you can. It doesn't take that option away from people who want that drop deck. 1-1-1-1 does take away the option to play what you enjoy from other players. If you really want players to choose to play certain mech classes that they don't enjoy, simply forcing them to do it isn't going to help. It will just add frustration to the experience of CW, and probably make them hate whatever weight class it is even more. I'm willing to compromise somewhat for balance reasons, but I really don't understand why anyone believes that 1-1-1-1 is going to somehow end up more balanced than tonnage limits would. I just don't see it.

Finally, suggesting that players who don't enjoy playing every weight class should exclude themselves from CW is pretty harsh. As far as I'm concerned, CW is what the game was supposed to be, and I am genuinely surprised at some people suggesting I shouldn't be a part of it if I don't like 1-1-1-1. It is like asking me to not play half the game. Asking me to only PUG if I don't like 1-1-1-1 would be like asking a WoW player to never raid if they don't want to play a tank, healer and DPS all in the same raid.

[Khobai]

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And the Clans just happen to have a great 60 ton Heavy introduced to offset that. What does the IS have? Dragon?
I guess Jager will do.

Read my post.

1) clans should get a lower drop weight limit like 200-220 because clan mechs are better.

2) you would still not be allowed to take more than two mechs from each weight class.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 25 September 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

It doesnt reward variety though. It rewards taking the best mech in each weight class.

If you have to take a light mech are you going to take a locust or a firestarter? are you going to take a blackjack or a shadowhawk? are you going to take a dragon or a jagermech/cataphract? are you going to take an awesome or a d-dc/atlas-s/kingcrab?

1/1/1/1 would basically be the death of subpar mechs.

Non 1/1/1/1 can mean the death of entire subpar class. Who will pilot Clan Assaults with only 200-220 ton limit?

Think about that.


1/1/1/1 + Weight limit is what I advocate.


Finally, the IS mech selection is not as limited as you think. Firestarters cannot NARC and has no ECM compared to Raven 3L. Griffins are just as good as Shawks. Victor and Banshee can be just as effective as a non D-DC Atlas.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 September 2014 - 08:03 PM.

[Khobai]

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Non 1/1/1/1 can mean death of subpar classes. Who will pilot Clan Assaults with only 220 ton limit?

Youre getting too caught up in the details and missing the entire point. The 220 number is purely tenative. it could be set to anything. Clans could get 240 tons and IS could get 260 tons. it doesnt matter. the point is simply that clans should get 20-40 tons less than IS.

And plenty of players would still use clan assaults. The dire wolf might take a hit but not all the clan assaults are 100 tons.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 25 September 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

Youre getting too caught up in the details and missing the entire point. The 220 number is purely tenative. it could be set to anything. Clans could get 240 tons and IS could get 260 tons. it doesnt matter. the point is simply that clans should get 20-40 tons less than IS.

And plenty of players would still use clan assaults. The dire wolf might take a hit but not all the clan assaults are 100 tons.

For drop disparity, I am willing to wait until the Clan XL penalty comes in to make up my mind. Without it, the IS should have more weight advantage.

Also, for the sake of argument you really think people will sacrifice extra tons for Woman O'Peace or Peace Dove over what the Clans can offer in the Heavy and Medium class?

Edited by El Bandito, 25 September 2014 - 08:07 PM.

[Khobai]

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For the sake of argument you really think people will sacrifice extra tons for Woman O'Peace or Peace Dove over what the Clans can offer in the Heavy and Medium class?

Russ said theyre going to do a quirk pass on all the clan mechs after they finished the IS mechs. So theres reason to believe the Warhawk will be getting a solid buff.

[Zyllos]

AUSwarrior24, on 25 September 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

Having tonnage based teams instead will be a nightmare to balance. You could end up with teams full of heavies and assaults, and another with lights and mediums. And people won't learn and change- if these forums have taught me anything, it's that people will come right back and complain that the system is flawed until the system changes, rather than themselves.

The balance is in the tonnage.

Those "Heavy/Assault" teams will most likely have no more than 36, most likely even less. Those "Medium/Light" teams will have at least 36, most likely more.

This is the balance. It allows for off tonnage mechs to be played to allow for more mechs to be brought into the match.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 25 September 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Russ said theyre going to do a quirk pass on all the clan mechs after they finished the IS mechs. So theres reason to believe the Warhawk will be getting a solid buff.

Then one can argue that 1/1/1/1 diversity is fine since all the non-optimum mechs are getting buffs.
Especially when combined with weight limit.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 September 2014 - 08:20 PM.

[Scratx]

Khobai, on 25 September 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Russ said theyre going to do a quirk pass on all the clan mechs after they finished the IS mechs. So theres reason to believe the Warhawk will be getting a solid buff.

To be fair, the Summoner needs a buff far more.

But yes, clan mechs need a quirk pass as well, most clan mechs are totally UP compared to the Crow and Timby and in some cases even compared to many IS mechs.

Now, on topic... I can see arguments for all sides. Can't say I like tonnage only, far prefer tonnage AND numbers limit so nobody comes with a dozen Locusts. But it is somewhat fair to say that if someone wants to bring 4 Jenners and go under tonnage, why stop him?... though on the other hand, since theoretically all mechs should be similarly powerful, that would not be fair to the Atlas driver, who probably could only afford at most two.

There is no right answer to this, in fact...

[Khobai]

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Then one can argue that 1/1/1/1 diversity is fine since all the non-optimum mechs are getting buffs.
Especially when combined with weight limit.

No. Because even if the warhawk gets a buff its still not equal to a dire wolf. you still need to account for the 15 ton difference which 1/1/1/1 fails to do.

[orcrist86]

I get that you guys are looking for a little balance and fairness here, but it doesn't matter. ELO goes out the door during CW. Matches are made up of those who click the button first. Paul describes it this way in the post. Its First in First out. There is no balance. Its not designed to really have any. The drop deck provides for attrition, and gives bad players a chance to come back into a fight. CW is not going to be a fair fight, its going to be war, and war doesn't know balance or equality, it just knows the body count.

Argue all you like about tonnage limits, it doesn't really matter. It will never be a fair fight under the current model. Prepare yourselves gentleman. CW will be long slogs of hell where nothing is certain, only that you can pony up for the next fight when your done with the first.

[Mechsniper]

Another vote here for Weight limits on drops and get rid of 3/3/3/3 as well as the most heinous item in your matchmaking que... ELO! ELO makes this game terrible half the time for experienced players and intentionally so. Put a XP based matchmaking separation in, so new guys have to slog at it with each other for a while and learn the game. Balance Clan vs IS with weight # of clan mechs in a drop being less than that of IS, remember clan mechs SHOULD be slightly OP vs IS mechs.

[EvilCow]

A weight limit would be more interesting for sure, this division by classes has already make public queues less interesting.

The weight limit could be variable depending on things like:
- contract
- target
- enemy (for example you could get a 20% more weight if fighting clans).

This would give PGI an extra parameter to work with in order to balance the CW.

[Kushko]

Maxx Blue, on 25 September 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

I guess I don't really understand the idea that 1-1-1-1 will be all that well balanced. If I drop a Locust 3S, Cicada 3C, a Quickdraw 4G and an Awesome 8R, that isn't going to be anything close to balanced compared to a Kit Fox, Stormcrow, Timberwolf and Direwolf. Not only is it 60T lighter, it is still full of pretty crappy mechs. The only thing that will keep 1-1-1-1 close to balanced is the same thing that would keep tonnage limits balanced: Most players will try to bring a viable set of mechs that maximizes their chances of winning. 1-1-1-1 doesn't stop imbalance or trolling, it just changes the exact mechanics of the imbalance and trolling you end up with. Nothing in 1-1-1-1 is stopping anyone from picking a mech in each weight class, loading it with LRM5's and a TAG, or from running nothing but flamers, or doing a raven/hunch/jaeger/victor drop of nothing but AC20's. Trolls will troll, no matter what. The ONLY thing that 1-1-1-1 does is to limit the potential tonnage difference between any two possible drop ships to 65 tons. You could do the exact same thing with tonnage limits by setting a minimum and maximum drop weight that are 65T apart. 1-1-1-1 doesn't even promote diversity, it just changes which set of 4 mechs will be optimal.

The advantage to tonnage limits is that it allows players to have more choice in the mechs they want to play. If you still want to build a 1-1-1-1 drop ship, with tonnage limits you can. It doesn't take that option away from people who want that drop deck. 1-1-1-1 does take away the option to play what you enjoy from other players. If you really want players to choose to play certain mech classes that they don't enjoy, simply forcing them to do it isn't going to help. It will just add frustration to the experience of CW, and probably make them hate whatever weight class it is even more. I'm willing to compromise somewhat for balance reasons, but I really don't understand why anyone believes that 1-1-1-1 is going to somehow end up more balanced than tonnage limits would. I just don't see it.

Finally, suggesting that players who don't enjoy playing every weight class should exclude themselves from CW is pretty harsh. As far as I'm concerned, CW is what the game was supposed to be, and I am genuinely surprised at some people suggesting I shouldn't be a part of it if I don't like 1-1-1-1. It is like asking me to not play half the game. Asking me to only PUG if I don't like 1-1-1-1 would be like asking a WoW player to never raid if they don't want to play a tank, healer and DPS all in the same raid.

Very well said.

[charov]

Flyby215, on 25 September 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

Make it 1-1-1-1 AND a 235 limit.

With 1-1-1-1 all you'll see is Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, Stormcrow, Ember. Why not, right?

At 235 and 1-1-1-1 you end up having to be selective; bring a DW and TW you'll be forced to bring in the Cicada and Locust to balance out... Or you can mix it up quite nicely with a Stalker, Hellbringer, Stormcrow, Jenner.

Still under the limit? C-Bill bonus.

Prevents people from bringing the best of 1-1-1-1, keeps people from bringing 3 TimberWolves and a 'quit' mech, and helps maintain variety on the battlefield.

This is the best solution by far. You can't have 3xTimber Wolves and you can't carry the heaviest mech per class. PGI should just test a bit on the max tonnage, even if I think that 235 it's fine (maybe 240, but not more). With this value you can have:

100+65+45+25 - Max Assault: Daishi, Hellbringer, Ice Ferret, Mist Lynx | Altas, Jagermech, Blackjack, Commando
80+75+50+30 - Max Heavy: Gargoyle, Timber Wolf, Nova, Kit Fox | Victor, Orion, Centurion, Spider
85+60+55+35 - Max Lights/Mediums: Warhawk, Mad Dog, Stormcrow, Adder | Stalker, Quickdraw, Griffin, Firestarter

If you choose to carry the heaviest A/H with you, you also have to save some tons in the other classes. Even if you max up Lights and Mediums, you can't take any real heavy A/H.

Keep in mind that you have FOUR mechs in your dropship, three of them are just reinforcements of your primary mech. Therefore.. just try to do not waste your mech!

It can really work, imo.

[Warma]

Hobo Dan, on 25 September 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

I take your suggestion a step further but also drop to 200ton max. No mech limit at all, so if someone wants to bring 10 Locusts, they can.

I would actually LOVE to see this. The right tonnage amount is probably closer to 240 tons, though, as 60 tons is the mid-sized mech in the game (starts with 20, ends with 100). This would also allow for Atlas+Atlas+Locust+Locust or something of that order. Or 12 locusts!

[Morang]

Warma, on 25 September 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

The right tonnage amount is probably closer to 240 tons, though, as 60 tons is the mid-sized mech in the game (starts with 20, ends with 100).

People talk about 235, because Assault weight class have 5 tonnage grades instead of 4 of other classes. 235 is 232,5 rounded up, and 232,5 is the sum of average tonnages of all weight classes (27,5 + 47,5 + 67,5 + 90). It allows you to bring, for example, exactly average Assault (90 tons) and with it two above average mechs (i. e. 70-tonner and 30-tonner) with only one below average (45-tonner).

[King Arthur IV]

i would lower it to 185ton but number crunching isnt important yet.

if you give too much weight allowance, people will lean towards the heaviest combination even if they lose 1 mech in the process.

your choices mean more when the limitation is greater.

Edited by King Arthur IV, 25 September 2014 - 11:47 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

People talk about 235, because Assault weight class have 5 tonnage grades instead of 4 of other classes. 235 is 232,5 rounded up, and 232,5 is the sum of average tonnages of all weight classes (27,5 + 47,5 + 67,5 + 90). It allows you to bring, for example, exactly average Assault (90 tons) and with it two above average mechs (i. e. 70-tonner and 30-tonner) with only one below average (45-tonner).

Actually the reason why people talk about 235 is because you cant take two 100 ton mechs.

Because 100+100+20+20 = 240

235 means youre limited to a single 100 ton mech per drop.

Quote

i would lower it to 185ton but number crunching isnt important yet.

Thats way too low.

240-260 is ideal for IS mechs while 200-240 is ideal for clan mechs.

And have a limit of two mechs per weight class. So no x4 heavy shenannigans.

Quote

if you give too much weight allowance, people will lean towards the heaviest combination even if they lose 1 mech in the process.

Yeah but forcing people to play lights and mediums when they dont want to is also wrong. As long as you cant take all heavies/assaults I think its fine.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2014 - 11:53 PM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 25 September 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

No. Because even if the warhawk gets a buff its still not equal to a dire wolf. you still need to account for the 15 ton difference which 1/1/1/1 fails to do.

Jesus Christ man. Have you been intentionally missing where I said in multiple posts that I want 1/1/1/1 implemented WITH weight limit? It will take account of that 15 tons.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 September 2014 - 11:52 PM.