362 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

Russ Bullock, on 26 September 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

...
However internally we are now discussing tonnage limits for CW and I am pushing this notion pretty strongly. It will end up providing more flexibility to players who want to perhaps take nothing but their Jenner's out for instance. But will become more restricting as you go higher, for instance nobody is going to take 4 Direwolf's - in fact if they take 2 their last two mechs are going to be pretty dang light.

But Tonnage restrictions does allow us to change it per planet if we desire.

I know players would like to push the tonnage limit up as high as possible so they can take as many of their favorite heavy mech as possible but I currently like the number of 240 tons.

Most excellent!

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 26 September 2014 - 08:38 AM.

[Christof Romulus]

Russ Bullock, on 26 September 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

I admit I read very little of the entire thread - too little time in a day.

I will say this - in a perfect world we would have our groups limited to 4, 8 and 12 in CW and make each lance of a light, medium, heavy and Assault pilot with their drop ships full of those types of mechs - that way our MM can very easily put together matches.

But we know the players wouldn't like this concession they would prefer to have their groups of 5,6,7,9,10....

When you have group sizes like this it gets very difficult on the MM as seen in the public Group Queue - one group of 10 might not even fit with some of the groups of 2 based on all the heavy or assault slots being taken and it goes from there.

1 of each weight class gets past this and ensures variety.

However internally we are now discussing tonnage limits for CW and I am pushing this notion pretty strongly. It will end up providing more flexibility to players who want to perhaps take nothing but their Jenner's out for instance. But will become more restricting as you go higher, for instance nobody is going to take 4 Direwolf's - in fact if they take 2 their last two mechs are going to be pretty dang light.

But Tonnage restrictions does allow us to change it per planet if we desire.

I know players would like to push the tonnage limit up as high as possible so they can take as many of their favorite heavy mech as possible but I currently like the number of 240 tons.

Wait... no... noooo!

Read the points based thing! The thing.... with the points... and the Tiers...

Page 3, just a little bit before your reply... I think we got something here...

[Mechteric]

Christof Romulus, on 26 September 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

Wait... no... noooo!

Read the points based thing! The thing.... with the points... and the Tiers...

Page 3, just a little bit before your reply... I think we got something here...

Tonnages are easier to deal with, plus "tiers" indicates something that is a potentially dynamically changing value over time as players gravitate to particular mechs. I would say tonnage is a start at least, and much more interesting and flexible than the 1/1/1/1 anyway.

[DEMAX51]

Christof Romulus, on 26 September 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

Wait... no... noooo!

Read the points based thing! The thing.... with the points... and the Tiers...

Page 3, just a little bit before your reply... I think we got something here...

The "points-based" thing does nothing to encourage the use of lighter-in-their-weight-class 'Mechs though, like the Locust or the Quickdraw. It's basically just a very simplified version of Battle Value.

[BenMartin]

Russ Bullock, on 26 September 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

However internally we are now discussing tonnage limits for CW and I am pushing this notion pretty strongly. It will end up providing more flexibility to players who want to perhaps take nothing but their Jenner's out for instance. But will become more restricting as you go higher, for instance nobody is going to take 4 Direwolf's - in fact if they take 2 their last two mechs are going to be pretty dang light.

But Tonnage restrictions does allow us to change it per planet if we desire.

I know players would like to push the tonnage limit up as high as possible so they can take as many of their favorite heavy mech as possible but I currently like the number of 240 tons.

I think that 240 is too high - it would allow FOUR Heavy 'mechs (yes 60-tonners, but still)... Rather, the most prevalent 'mech weight among existing 'mechs is 55 tons - make the weight limit 55 x 4 = 220 tons. Small change on the face of it, but that little tweak would drive far more exciting battles, I think.

[WarHippy]

I'm going to quote myself from another thread, but I will say I think the OPs idea and Russ's idea are both equally bad.

WarHippy, on 25 September 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

I agree the 1/1/1/1 system is silly. Then again I think tonnage limits are as well. This is community warfare and the teams should be able to build their 12 man as they see fit, and if that means 12 lights/assaults or some other combination then so be it. That and if I am setting up my unit I am going to want my aces in their places and if I have someone who is great in lights but terrible in heavies and assaults I don't want half of their drop deck made up of mechs they suck with.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Russ Bullock, on 26 September 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

However internally we are now discussing tonnage limits for CW and I am pushing this notion pretty strongly. It will end up providing more flexibility to players who want to perhaps take nothing but their Jenner's out for instance. But will become more restricting as you go higher, for instance nobody is going to take 4 Direwolf's - in fact if they take 2 their last two mechs are going to be pretty dang light.

But Tonnage restrictions does allow us to change it per planet if we desire.

I know players would like to push the tonnage limit up as high as possible so they can take as many of their favorite heavy mech as possible but I currently like the number of 240 tons.

I'd really like to see this ALSO include a limitation of only ONE Chasis per mech, So you light pilots that wanted a weight restriction are forced to take a Jenner, Ember, Locust, Spider as an example. Clanners well You have to vary it up

None of this 4 Spiders, or 3 Timberwolves nonsense. You can play your weight class but HAVE to vary it.

Edited by shad0w4life, 26 September 2014 - 08:48 AM.

[Tastian]

i'm thinking 1 of each weight class - say 95 tons, plus 70 tons, plus 50 tons, plus 35 tons = 250 tons.

[1453 R]

Lemme lay out the problem with tonnage-based drop decks for you folks, since it's apparently escaped notice in every "Tonnage, not classes!" thread I haven't directly posted in.

240 tons is 4x60, which is the median number in the BattleTech weight range of 20-100. As such, it strikes many as a good place to start, with reason.

Twelve players on a side in a Dropship match would each have 240 tons to play with.

Each of those players, with a 240-ton limit, could bring eight ECM TrollSpiders to a match (240/30=8)

12 x 8 = 96

Yeah. Ninety-six ECM TrollSpiders in one DropShip match. Ninety-six. An hour-long slog of sheerest torture, and if you don't think it will happen, you're pretty new to online gaming. I know quite a few people who would leap at the chance to bring eight ECM TrollSpiders to a match specifically and solely to be a giant griefing basshole. To say nothing of how tonnage over classes throws weight-balanced matchmaking out the window. The system just could not be reasonably expected to set up a perfect 12/12/12/12 team when players can bring any number of 'Mechs they like under 240 tons. And if you end up with seven guys on your team who're all "I'm a light expert!" and slinging a bunch of Commandos all painted bright red because da red wunz go fasta (if you wish to infer from this that four out of five so-called 'light experts' are in fact yammering idiots and not actually light experts...congratulations, you're perceptive), then your team is largely boned in any given Community Warfare match it drops in.

You can have tonnage-based drop decks and the freedom to bring whatever terrible configuration of junk you like, or you can have something resembling fair and balanced matchmaking in CW. You cannot have both. Pick the one you want more.

Edited by 1453 R, 26 September 2014 - 08:51 AM.

[Bilbo]

1453 R, on 26 September 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

Lemme lay out the problem with tonnage-based drop decks for you folks, since it's apparently escaped notice in every "Tonnage, not classes!" thread I haven't directly posted in.

240 tons is 4x60, which is the median number in the BattleTech weight range of 20-100. As such, it strikes many as a good place to start, with reason.

Twelve players on a side in a Dropship match would each have 240 tons to play with.

Each of those players, with a 240-ton limit, could bring eight ECM TrollSpiders to a match (240/30=8)

12 x 8 = 96

Yeah. Ninety-six ECM TrollSpiders in one DropShip match. Ninety-six. An hour-long slog of sheerest torture, and if you don't think it will happen, you're pretty new to online gaming. I know quite a few people who would leap at the chance to bring eight ECM TrollSpiders to a match specifically and solely to be a giant griefing basshole. To say nothing of how tonnage over classes throws weight-balanced matchmaking out the window. The system just could not be reasonably expected to set up a perfect 12/12/12/12 team when players can bring any number of 'Mechs they like under 240 tons. And if you end up with seven guys on your team who're all "I'm a light expert!" and slinging a bunch of Commandos all painted bright red because da red wunz go fasta (if you wish to infer from this that four out of five so-called 'light experts' are in fact yammering idiots and not actually light experts...congratulations, you're perceptive), then your team is largely boned in any given Community Warfare match it drops in.

You can have tonnage-based drop decks and the freedom to bring whatever terrible configuration of junk you like, or you can have something resembling fair and balanced matchmaking in CW. You cannot have both. Pick the one you want more.

Not sure what's worse, your scenario or 36 Timberwolves.

[Metus regem]

DEMAX51, on 26 September 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

The "points-based" thing does nothing to encourage the use of lighter-in-their-weight-class 'Mechs though, like the Locust or the Quickdraw. It's basically just a very simplified version of Battle Value.

That's true, to be honest, I fear a good Locust pilot, than I do a mediocre Raven pilot that uses the ECM sniper junk...

And yes some mechs are just better mechs, a Timber Wolf is just better all around than a Summoner. That is also why I suggest a reward for being under the maximum point vale, if you chose to take more mechs that are considered worse in the meta that you like.

For me, my drop deck is going to look like this:

WHK-PRIME
TBR-D V2
SCR-PRIME
ADR-WubWubWub

This is limited by the fact that these are the clans mechs I own... now once I have all my Timbers ready for Master slots, then that might change...

[DEMAX51]

1453 R, on 26 September 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

Lemme lay out the problem with tonnage-based drop decks for you folks, since it's apparently escaped notice in every "Tonnage, not classes!" thread I haven't directly posted in.

240 tons is 4x60, which is the median number in the BattleTech weight range of 20-100. As such, it strikes many as a good place to start, with reason.

Twelve players on a side in a Dropship match would each have 240 tons to play with.

Each of those players, with a 240-ton limit, could bring eight ECM TrollSpiders to a match (240/30=8)...

Your argument assumes that players will be able to take more than 4 'Mechs. I don't think that's how it'd play out. I think a more likely scenario, if they go with tonnage limits, is that you'll still be required to take 4 'Mechs into the fight - no more, no less (well... possibly less, but definitely no more. I don't even think more than 4 mechs per person would be technically possible, considering the Engineers were already worried that each player having 4 'Mechs would put too much strain on the servers)

Edited by DEMAX51, 26 September 2014 - 09:01 AM.

[TexAce]

Russ Bullock, on 26 September 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

I admit I read very little of the entire thread - too little time in a day.

I will say this - in a perfect world we would have our groups limited to 4, 8 and 12 in CW and make each lance of a light, medium, heavy and Assault pilot with their drop ships full of those types of mechs - that way our MM can very easily put together matches.

But we know the players wouldn't like this concession they would prefer to have their groups of 5,6,7,9,10....

When you have group sizes like this it gets very difficult on the MM as seen in the public Group Queue - one group of 10 might not even fit with some of the groups of 2 based on all the heavy or assault slots being taken and it goes from there.

1 of each weight class gets past this and ensures variety.

However internally we are now discussing tonnage limits for CW and I am pushing this notion pretty strongly. It will end up providing more flexibility to players who want to perhaps take nothing but their Jenner's out for instance. But will become more restricting as you go higher, for instance nobody is going to take 4 Direwolf's - in fact if they take 2 their last two mechs are going to be pretty dang light.

But Tonnage restrictions does allow us to change it per planet if we desire.

I know players would like to push the tonnage limit up as high as possible so they can take as many of their favorite heavy mech as possible but I currently like the number of 240 tons.

I like, but I'd rather go with 200 tons. Make assaults not something that everybody runs all the time. Mediums should be the workhorses, not heavies. 240 Tons would be a Daishi and 2 Timbers. Imagine everyone bringing that....

Or lets make a deal at 220 at least. Thats still a Highlander, a Spider and 2 Hunchies. Or 1 Atlas, 1 Phract and a Jenner. (or Daishi+Timber+Adder). Or 4 Firestarters and 2 Cicadas.

Edited by TexAss, 26 September 2014 - 09:03 AM.

[EvilCow]

Tonnage limit is definitely the way to go. Having a parameter to work with will help balancing the CW and give also lesser mechs in each class a reason to be.

If someone wants to drop 2 assaults and 2 locusts, why not? the global balance of the drop will be preserved anyway.

[King Arthur IV]

240 too high!!!

[Kushko]

1453 R, on 26 September 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

Lemme lay out the problem with tonnage-based drop decks for you folks, since it's apparently escaped notice in every "Tonnage, not classes!" thread I haven't directly posted in.

240 tons is 4x60, which is the median number in the BattleTech weight range of 20-100. As such, it strikes many as a good place to start, with reason.

Twelve players on a side in a Dropship match would each have 240 tons to play with.

Each of those players, with a 240-ton limit, could bring eight ECM TrollSpiders to a match (240/30=8)

12 x 8 = 96

Yeah. Ninety-six ECM TrollSpiders in one DropShip match. Ninety-six. An hour-long slog of sheerest torture, and if you don't think it will happen, you're pretty new to online gaming. I know quite a few people who would leap at the chance to bring eight ECM TrollSpiders to a match specifically and solely to be a giant griefing basshole. To say nothing of how tonnage over classes throws weight-balanced matchmaking out the window. The system just could not be reasonably expected to set up a perfect 12/12/12/12 team when players can bring any number of 'Mechs they like under 240 tons. And if you end up with seven guys on your team who're all "I'm a light expert!" and slinging a bunch of Commandos all painted bright red because da red wunz go fasta (if you wish to infer from this that four out of five so-called 'light experts' are in fact yammering idiots and not actually light experts...congratulations, you're perceptive), then your team is largely boned in any given Community Warfare match it drops in.

You can have tonnage-based drop decks and the freedom to bring whatever terrible configuration of junk you like, or you can have something resembling fair and balanced matchmaking in CW. You cannot have both. Pick the one you want more.

Most of us that are for the tonnage system agree that it should also be 4 mechs max. In the case of spiders you could bring 4 and just not use the rest of the weight allowance.

Also since CW will be objective based and not "kill everyone" ECM run around and hide wont be as much of an issue as it is in normal queue.

Edited by Kushko, 26 September 2014 - 09:06 AM.

[Mechteric]

1453 R, on 26 September 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

Lemme lay out the problem with tonnage-based drop decks for you folks, since it's apparently escaped notice in every "Tonnage, not classes!" thread I haven't directly posted in.

240 tons is 4x60, which is the median number in the BattleTech weight range of 20-100. As such, it strikes many as a good place to start, with reason.

Twelve players on a side in a Dropship match would each have 240 tons to play with.

Each of those players, with a 240-ton limit, could bring eight ECM TrollSpiders to a match (240/30=8)

12 x 8 = 96

Yeah. Ninety-six ECM TrollSpiders in one DropShip match. Ninety-six. An hour-long slog of sheerest torture, and if you don't think it will happen, you're pretty new to online gaming. I know quite a few people who would leap at the chance to bring eight ECM TrollSpiders to a match specifically and solely to be a giant griefing basshole. To say nothing of how tonnage over classes throws weight-balanced matchmaking out the window. The system just could not be reasonably expected to set up a perfect 12/12/12/12 team when players can bring any number of 'Mechs they like under 240 tons. And if you end up with seven guys on your team who're all "I'm a light expert!" and slinging a bunch of Commandos all painted bright red because da red wunz go fasta (if you wish to infer from this that four out of five so-called 'light experts' are in fact yammering idiots and not actually light experts...congratulations, you're perceptive), then your team is largely boned in any given Community Warfare match it drops in.

You can have tonnage-based drop decks and the freedom to bring whatever terrible configuration of junk you like, or you can have something resembling fair and balanced matchmaking in CW. You cannot have both. Pick the one you want more.

I think they are keeping the max of 4 per dropship, so one person couldn't just load up 12 locusts or whatever.

[Trevor Belmont]

240 sounds great Russ!

[TexAce]

Players should be able to maximise their tons (be it 200 or 240) or otherwise, if you want to bring 4 spideys, you are 100 tons too light, and thus can get yout team into a ton-disadvantage.

if, however, you can maximise - say - your 200 tons, you can bring 4 spideys and 2 cicadas.

Its important to field nearly equal amount of tons as the enemy, not equal amount of mechs to get a balanced match.

Edited by TexAss, 26 September 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[IsaAurinkoinen]

I think that perfect system would be 210t (list tonnage, so not stripped down mechs) and must also have 4 mechs. If you want to bring 100 tonner then you have to think how to got those rest of mechs fit. So even locust can be (somekind) viable .

100t Kingcrap
20t Locust
20t Locust
70t Catapracht

OR

55t Shadowhawk
55t Griffin
70t Cataphract
30t Spider

Whick one you would prefer?

Top heavy or more balanced. That would be awesome and most awesome thing would be that we would see more mediums witch ones should be most of mechs at the field.

Edited by IsaAurinkoinen, 26 September 2014 - 09:25 AM.