349 replies to this topic

[Grantham Besat]

They don't have a 1 1 1 1 rule is my point it got removed didn't it so you just have 240 tons meaning you can use multiple TW.

[CyclonerM]

Verdic Mckenna, on 29 October 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

I stand corrected. Thanks for that. Might want to fix your "practiced" since we're being honest with one another. "Praticed" sounds like a fancy word for "prancing". lol I guess the proper term would be organized? Regiment tactics? 1.) organize according to a strict, sometimes oppressive system or pattern. I don't know. In any case - you know what i'm saying. =p

Not sure I mean , an average pure BattleMech regiment would have around 192 players so "regimental tactics" is a bit excessive

On the other hand.. I mean "teams doing practice 192men drops". You know what i am saying

Grantham Besat, on 29 October 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

They don't have a 1 1 1 1 rule is my point it got removed didn't it so you just have 240 tons meaning you can use multiple TW.

OK, but i think that numbers will have an impact, too. We shall see, but as i like to pilot different weights and 'Mechs (though my best are heavies) i am looking at 1/1/1/1 dropdecks.

[Kain Demos]

So is it 20 or 21t of pod space after max armor for Gargoyle anyway? I've seen both posted.

21t would allow another build I like: 6 x C-ERML 1 x C-Gauss

[Metus regem]

It will be a wait and see mech, and it heavily depends on how it handles, if it works like pref nerf Victors or post Nov. 4 Victors, it will be a devastating unit, when working as a lance with Timber Wolves, Storm Crows and Mad Dogs

Again though, I mentioned team work, if you want to go and be Rambo or a sniper, you should pick a different mech.

[Lily from animove]

Kain Thul, on 29 October 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

So is it 20 or 21t of pod space after max armor for Gargoyle anyway? I've seen both posted.

21t would allow another build I like: 6 x C-ERML 1 x C-Gauss

and? thats a bad build, either low on ammo, or badly cooled TBR can outplay that easily. dps will not be good on this build.

[Kain Demos]

Lily from animove, on 29 October 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

and? thats a bad build, either low on ammo, or badly cooled TBR can outplay that easily. dps will not be good on this build.

It could be a bad build in the Gargoyle but I'd still like to try it since it is so good in a Timberwolf. Having 6 less heat sinks would make it a lot harder to cool but it would still give you a couple alpha's before you had to be careful and could be used hit and run style.

With 20 or 21 tons and 16 "locked" heat sinks boating lasers is going to be the best way to go. Basically it will have the pod space of the Summoner but more energy hardpoints available.

[Metus regem]

Lily from animove, on 29 October 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

and? thats a bad build, either low on ammo, or badly cooled TBR can outplay that easily. dps will not be good on this build.

I agree with you, but the Gargoyle is hampered in free weight by the 400 cXL engine it carries, it is also past the prefect balance point for speed/armour/fire power, that the Timber Wolf sits on, so it has to give up one thing to have the other two, in his case fire power.

Edited by Metus regem, 29 October 2014 - 08:21 AM.

[Grantham Besat]

Basicly on a map 4 times larger than alpine in a game mode that does not force you to play all classes against an IS team that will be stack brawl quirked mechs if you had to pick 4 mechs would the Gargoyle be one? This is the battlefield we need to get ready for. As clanners we need to be taking a hard look at whats coming and really be honest about the strengths and weaknesses of our mechs and play styles. Some of you have seen CHHx tags now and you know our goal is a clan win in CW. That is why I post these questions and want you to all consider them seriously.

Edited by Grantham Besat, 29 October 2014 - 10:25 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Metus regem, on 29 October 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

I agree with you, but the Gargoyle is hampered in free weight by the 400 cXL engine it carries, it is also past the prefect balance point for speed/armour/fire power, that the Timber Wolf sits on, so it has to give up one thing to have the other two, in his case fire power.

The Issue is you sacrifice quite a lot firepower in % and hardly get much more HP for it. Bigger engine lets him twist better


But looking at the gargoyle reveals the question how good his torso twist abilities are to spread damage. That is my true fear, the "belly and chestpart that seems to be CT sticks out. Also the head, so it looks like the gargoyle will have a hard time to actually hiding his CT efficiently.

[Carthoo]

Well you guys still think about tonnage - ok, it will be important.

Yet if there wont be 1-1-1-1 rule....

Dire Wolf (100) + Hellbringer Prime with ECM (65) with scout/ support double Kit-fox (ECM) (35+35) will do a helluva lot more than previously written lances (Also possible to swap kitfoxes for 1 Mist lynx and one 50 tons mech).

Best damage dealer with great armour, heavy mech providing ECM cover with weaponry to compete with enemy heavies/ meds and to kill lights very fast and two stealthy recon mechs providing sniper cover/ close combat precision hits.

This lance will be able to find enemy and choose the battlefield. DW wont be trackable unless close combat range - if needed, one kitfox will come back (or both and it will be 2 ECM disrupting, 1 ECM on counter).

Enemies will either focus on DW, probably kill it , but loose 2-3 mech in the process, or focus on its support - and die in "daka-daka" rain of death or other funny things aka gauss fire supported with 8 lasers etc etc...

How can Gargoyle compete with that? Unless its a race match "wholl get there first". Gargoyle has only the speed, its "punch" wont be so much better than that of a Hellbringer...

[Grantham Besat]

Ok now how is the Dire goin to handle the map size. Alpine in a Dire blows think of that size of a space and make it 4 times larger. How much time will it take for a Dire to get anywhere? My goal here is to make the clans think about the big picture. I want us to win. Also if you look at the new quirk list you will see that the IS just got mega buffed for short to medium ranged battles. What are the clans good at?

Edited by Grantham Besat, 30 October 2014 - 03:35 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Carthoo, on 30 October 2014 - 03:12 AM, said:

Well you guys still think about tonnage - ok, it will be important.

Yet if there wont be 1-1-1-1 rule....

Dire Wolf (100) + Hellbringer Prime with ECM (65) with scout/ support double Kit-fox (ECM) (35+35) will do a helluva lot more than previously written lances (Also possible to swap kitfoxes for 1 Mist lynx and one 50 tons mech).

Best damage dealer with great armour, heavy mech providing ECM cover with weaponry to compete with enemy heavies/ meds and to kill lights very fast and two stealthy recon mechs providing sniper cover/ close combat precision hits.

This lance will be able to find enemy and choose the battlefield. DW wont be trackable unless close combat range - if needed, one kitfox will come back (or both and it will be 2 ECM disrupting, 1 ECM on counter).

Enemies will either focus on DW, probably kill it , but loose 2-3 mech in the process, or focus on its support - and die in "daka-daka" rain of death or other funny things aka gauss fire supported with 8 lasers etc etc...

How can Gargoyle compete with that? Unless its a race match "wholl get there first". Gargoyle has only the speed, its "punch" wont be so much better than that of a Hellbringer...

but when you need speed, you would use aTBR and safe those 5 tons for something better.

you will see loadouts like:

TBR
HBR
SCR
SCR

TBR
TBR
HBR
MLX

or even 4xMDD will be quite a good loadout

TBR, MDD and SCR are strong clan chassis withing a valid 240t tonnage without having to sacrifice too much on one end, and therefore we will see them a lot. A single DWF means you will have to sacrifice a lot somewhere else.

DWF's will find their palce if the map allows it, otherwise they may be sniping victims form small harassers.
And porbably also the fact if you defend or attack. if you defend, DWF's may be a good choice, they also may be a good choice for the first attack wave, when the fist drop roles together. but dropping alone in a direwolf trying to catch the others up is probably a bad situation.

Grantham Besat, on 30 October 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

Ok now how is the Dire goin to handle the map size. Alpine in a Dire blows think of that size of a space and make it 4 times larger. How much time will it take for a Dire to get anywhere? My goal here is to make the clans think about the big picture. I want us to win. Also if you look at the new quirk list you will see that the IS just got mega buffed.for short to medium ranged battles. What are the clans good at?

DWF's will be mostlikely doublegauss driven first wavers that shall be supported with ecm. because at this moment all drop together ad slowly roll over the map. Then when people die and respawn, faste chassis are a better decision for the waves after the initial one. And as saiddepending on where the defenders spawn, late game DWF's may be good end game defenders.

[Grantham Besat]

I like your thoughts on valid drop decks and I am glad to see one peraon using their head Lily. When CW hits everyone who refuses to adapt and accept that math rules this game will be crushed. You want the clans to win Terra then you all need to stop thinking about how to find the clan Victor or clan brawler and start figureing out how to use the clans strengths. Your not driving Victos and Highlanders anymore so you may want to adapt your style to accept that clans are not alpha based mechs. They are dps with amazing range and mobility.

Edited by Grantham Besat, 30 October 2014 - 04:09 AM.

[Carthoo]

@Grantham: Obviously you wont drop DW to take Alpine peaks.

@Lily: Agreed - yet TBRs and MDDs lrms are out of the question if enemy has multiple good ecm machines - and sure, they can be swapped for other weapons, yet thats one thing that make these mechs so great.

My idea surely sacrifices lot of "generally agreed" important things. As I said - you can switch kit foxes for mist lynx and nova/Ursus II/ Crab/Huron Warrior - any 50 ton mech we get. Depends on map (which we will know before the drop - at least I hope so - with all the spaceships not knowing the terrain were dropping in would be silly).

But in lots of games were same dilemmas - 4 good machines? Or 1-2 muscles with 1-2 omni-support?

Support doesnt mean not fighting. 4 MDDs will probably finish DW and Hellbringer quite fast, even with ECM cover from Hellbringer...but 2 kit foxes shooting alphas into MDDs back will finish MDD even faster (also screwing any of their guided missiles with ECM). And 3 ecm lance WILL KNOW exactly from where the MDDs come. Not to say, that 1-2 MDDs probably wont have one torso or one leg when the big bang start...

Its not to go with "hide behind the DW and let him do the work" plan.

Also even Alpine peaks - 4-gauss/ 6-9 ppcs/ 3 gauss-3 ppcs - DW can do more than its share on any map in defense and on most map in offense. Omnimechs are that great actually - especially 100 ton omnimechs.

I am not so big fan of DW (kidding, I love that machine from the day ive seen it) - I just prefer 1-2 dds, 1-2 omnirole guys team. Seen too often, how 4 balanced machines teams lost, coz 1-2 of their tanks/ soldiers/ planes were damaged/ destroyed before the final fight and remaining guys didnt have enough to win.

Only thing I am worried about is IS lance of similar type. 2-3 ECM covered light snipers would be more than capable of damaging/ destryoing DW AND Hellbringer thanks to 40+- km/h speed more than clans ecm light got. But the same goes for your balanced lances....

Light wolf pack with ecm and long range weps is the most dangerous thing in whole MW universe in my book. Not in the smallest maps, or not when the base cap is the goal probably - but in everything else....

[Grantham Besat]

Exactly Carthoo speed and firepower light snipers will be possibly horrifying. We know the maps will be huge bigger than Alpine so pondering how to adapt to that is critical.

[CyclonerM]

Grantham Besat, on 29 October 2014 - 10:19 PM, said:

Basicly on a map 4 times larger than alpine in a game mode that does not force you to play all classes against an IS team that will be stack brawl quirked mechs if you had to pick 4 mechs would the Gargoyle be one?

If i had to pick an Assault, the Gargoyle would be my choice. It will be the only one i will own, the only one agile and fast enough to be liked by me

Carthoo, on 30 October 2014 - 03:12 AM, said:

How can Gargoyle compete with that? Unless its a race match "wholl get there first". Gargoyle has only the speed, its "punch" wont be so much better than that of a Hellbringer...

If maps are going to be big, a fast 'Mech is what you want. If you cannot reach your team mates in time, what are reinforcements good for?

[Carthoo]

@Grantham: And thats why I think having ecm snipers to harass/ dmg enemy is more important, than TBR/ MDDs pack. DW is there to act as a red flag "Hey, we got DW - big fat target!" or as finisher - either stand as a rock against damaged mechs or crack their camp positions.

@Cycloner: As Lily said - second wave maybe - and Gargoyle will be slower than other mechs - probably too slow. For first wave it doesnt have the right role, for second it may not be fast enough. My bet is second wave most used mech will be stormcrow. Over 100 kph with good punch - especially with 4x erml + 2 lrm launchers to support even before it gets there. And reinforcements for when first wave has been turned on run? DW/ KingCrab - to assume defensive position and hold it.

Hell, we dont know different conditions...do we have to always attack? What happens if IS repell our first line and refuse to go finish the remains + reinforcement. Do we loose on time? Will there be some time limit aka - do we have to destroy enemy com tower in 07:30, or theyll get reinforcement?

Too much unknown...

Edited by Carthoo, 30 October 2014 - 05:46 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Indeed, too much unknown.

Oh well, i will still be able to enjoy those 20 tons if i choose a Gargoyle over a Dire Wolf

[Lily from animove]

Grantham Besat, on 30 October 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

Exactly Carthoo speed and firepower light snipers will be possibly horrifying. We know the maps will be huge bigger than Alpine so pondering how to adapt to that is critical.

that si probably why we get lynx and the ferret, they are the only valid counter to the is snipers and able to hutn them fdown or at leats scare them off. But yet, CERLL will play an important role in the atacking CW ranks, because they are the only "instant respose" weapons to the peeking IS light snipers. Gauss eventually too, but they would waste quite a lot ammo in the process.

CyclonerM, on 30 October 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

If i had to pick an Assault, the Gargoyle would be my choice. It will be the only one i will own, the only one agile and fast enough to be liked by me

If maps are going to be big, a fast 'Mech is what you want. If you cannot reach your team mates in time, what are reinforcements good for?

thats why the slow big boys will be the first wave mechs attacking with soem fats scouts roaming around making sure to not get crippled by the ecm snipers in guerilla style.

[Kain Demos]

Honestly I don't see the Gargoyle competing with the Dire Wolf for space on drop decks when community warfare hits.....they are very far apart tonnage wise. People who have gotta have the Dire Wolf will take it along with 2 mediums and a light.

The big question (since there is no longer 1:1:1:1 requirement) will be what would possess someone to take the Gargoyle at 80 tons over the Timberwolf at 75?

If 1:1:1:1 was still in effect then different story. I bet they'd be all over the place so people could still run Timberwolf AND Stormcrow while running Kit Fox as their light.

Also, anyone who likes running a Dire Wolf but can't quite make the rest of their deck work with one would more than likely drop down to the Warhawk at 85 tons anyway since it is pretty much like splitting the difference between a Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf for available weapons tonnage.

Edited by Kain Thul, 30 October 2014 - 08:40 AM.