117 replies to this topic

[Johnny Reb]

For some ppl, lrms are a must due to the terrible frames we get. Same pc in closed beta 40fps, now If I get 20 I am happy more like 8-10 till I get an arbitrary bump since the game and my pc make love I get 20. I am very deadly at 20 fps now without the lrms!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 26 September 2014 - 11:42 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Prosperity Park, on 26 September 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

Okay, so SRMs, PPCs and Autocannon, Gauss rifles,and LRMs are frowned upon?

What the heck are we supposed to use, then?

Harsh language.

[Moonlander]

Johnny Reb, on 26 September 2014 - 11:41 PM, said:

For some ppl, lrms are a must due to the terrible frames we get. Same pc in closed beta 40fps, now If I get 20 I am happy more like 8-10 till I get an arbitrary bump since the game and my pc make love I get 20. I am very deadly at 20 fps now without the lrms!

You shouldn't be playing games on a toaster.

[KharnZor]

Moonlander, on 26 September 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

You shouldn't be playing games on a toaster.

Are you kidding? The smell of toast cooking is awesome and motivational.

[Johnny Reb]

Moonlander, on 26 September 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

You shouldn't be playing games on a toaster.

Why not it motivates me and smells nice!

edit: also you wanna buy me a new one? I wont say no.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 26 September 2014 - 11:57 PM.

[KharnZor]

Johnny Reb, on 26 September 2014 - 11:56 PM, said:

Why not it motivates me and smells nice!

edit: also you wanna buy me a new one? I wont say no.

You need to upgrade to a 4 slice man

[duragan]

Thank god someone besides me finally speaks out about this crap lrms need a fix and i mean a huge fix.

[Kjudoon]

duragan, on 27 September 2014 - 12:12 AM, said:

Thank god someone besides me finally speaks out about this crap lrms need a fix and i mean a huge fix.

Trust me, if anything, LRMs will get a buff before they get another nerf, and expect ECM and AMS to get nerfed first as well. That discussion is already in play.

[Captain Stern]

OK, many of you sick of the LRM debate...then leave or try and discuses it like someone who wants to see progress. Trolling will never help. There are some points I wish people would answer, as opposed to saying "I don't like it" . Please don't talk about how you can defeat LRMs with cover. Funny thing is cover defeats EVERY WEAPON IN THE GAME EXCEPT LRMs. You might get behind a tall enough building, or you might not. a low hill still always defeats Lasers/AC/Gauss/MG/Flamers ECT. The ONLY weapon that can get around that is LRM, so PLEASE give up telling me that I should be hiding the whole game. As some of you have noticed, many weapons have been nerfed, while LRMs are still at full power. Please do not tell me how I should spend a module to block SOME of LRMs, not after they removed 50% of modules. We all know how to defeat EMC...Counter EMC, tag and narc. If it was a balanced weapon, then you would see a balanced set of choices. In the fields I play in, it's very, very popular. I understand that in some other skill levels it is less popular. Since I cannot chose to play in them and my skill level is ranked ONLY by being tied to my random teams, there is currently no way for me to avoid them. As some of you have noticed, AMS is not very popular anymore, not because people don't respect LRM's, but because its 1.5-2.5 tons that really don't seam to make much of a difference in the rain. Please don't talk about "lour" because until one of the books I read say stuff like " And I hid behind the tall indestructible building for most of the battle" then your claims that LRM's are balanced ring a little false. The current game play is just not much fun when you bump into 4-6 LRM. If they spred out, there is no cover, and you will never reach one before being stripped. Yes I may die to some other weapon, but when 80% of my armor is stripped by LRMs, I KNOW what killed me. I understand some of you disagree, what I would like to here is an answer that's not just some troll response. In my mind, LRM's should have a faster flight speed, but a much lower flight trajectory. Allowing them to better target the lights, but making "cover" have real value.... I can't believe how much they chance arc currently. Increasing the range and ammo amount of AMS would help make them viable again. Imagine if you saw LRMs as often as you see the AC2 now.

[Johnny Reb]

Only mech I fear being in due to lrms is the direwhale. Also only on lrm friendly maps like caustic and alpine. Mainly caustic.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

so PLEASE give up telling me that I should be hiding the whole game.

Okay, then I will tell you what will happen. You will die. Die frequently and die messily to every weapon in the game. This is not a game where you charge your enemy in the open in some vainglorious banzai charge. I will sit behind cover, with every other player and obliterate you in focus fire of LRMs and direct fire. There IS no other option. Learn how to use the map or you will rage quit and soon.

If you will not do this, I hope you like dying, because you will become a master at it. This is true in the game just as it is true in the real world.

Quote

As some of you have noticed, many weapons have been nerfed, while LRMs are still at full power.

Yes, because LRMs are the most nerfed, slowest, weakest, least precise, hardest to use well weapon in the game. They are given the benefits of being also the easiest to use with one nearly unique characteristic "lock on guidance" and a unique characteristic "Indirect Fire" as compensation.

They have the most counters because of their unique status: AMS, ECM, Radar Deprivation.
They have the most enhancements for the same reason: TAG, NARC, BAP, Target Decay, Advanced Range.

And still... consistantly, you do NOT see them in tournament play the higher the level of competition for the same reason they scourge the steering wheel underhive mech pilots; smart play, map knowledge and tactical knowledge of the weapon combined with refined direct fire skill is STILL vastly superior to the computer weapon with all the counters in place despite the enhancements.

LRMs are the worst 'mainline weapon' in the game. (Mainline because it is comparable to LLs or AC5s instead of streaks, MGs and SPLs). They are support weapons and do their job admirably by supporting the brawlers by driving snipers out of their nests or pinning them there so the brawlers can finish the work or pound them to death if they won't move.

Mechs that sport them in any mass over 20 on a medium and 30 on a heavy or assault needs to devote a significant level of it's build to them if they are to be successful. Everything else is pop shot easily defeated by counters or a finishing weapon when the enemy tries to run away.

Quote

Increasing the range and ammo amount of AMS would help make them viable again.

They got a buff last time LRMs were addressed. Their range was increased dramatically while LRMs got reduced a little from a buff they received because of crybabies screaming bloody murder they couldn't cope with LRMs being comparable but not equal to direct fire weapons. You can buy range modules and other enhancements to AMS that will make them more effective. You can buy mechs that mount 2 or 3 of them. They also are broken and fire through solid objects like map terrain and other mechs without missing or error or damaging anything. To top it off, they fire on missiles not aimed at them. And they need MORE of a buff?

What you seem to want is a weapon you can ignore or turn into something it is not: a direct fire weapon so the brawl will not go unimpeded. That boat sailed away with MW4.

[w0rm]

LRMs are MWOs selective pressure. They weed out the bads while the rest of us just roflstomps the LRMboats.

[Sjorpha]

I'm a new player so I see lots of LRMs. I don't think they need nerfing, power wise they are balanced, but I'd like them changed to emphasize more active playing over indirect fire. So in my opinion you could allow indirect fire only for tagged and narced targets, lower the flight path a bit and in compensation for these nerfs increase the damage.

That hopefully would force the lurmers into the active fighting more which would be more fun for everyone. Also make tagging and narcing assists pay better so it's a viable role to farm cbills in.

[Wolfways]

Captain Stern, on 27 September 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

OK, many of you sick of the LRM debate...then leave or try and discuses it like someone who wants to see progress.

Unfortunately there's a problem with that. If those of us who are sick of the "the LRM debate" stop posting all PGI will see are threads about how LRM's are OP and need nerfed into the ground/removed from the game. If that happens then no doubt PGI would nerf LRM's which are already one of the worst weapons in the game.

Some of us believe that LRM's are okay where they are, and a few of us (myself included) believe that LRM's are underpowered and need a few buffs, at least for direct-fire.
The only real "progress" needed is in the players who can't play well enough to negate the majority of LRM fire. The game should not be nerfed because a portion of the players can't learn how to play the game.

And those who just dislike LRM's "because" i wish would just uninstall and find something else as a wargame isn't their thing.

Edited by Wolfways, 27 September 2014 - 01:47 AM.

[Captain Stern]

Kjudoon, If they are so heavy nerfed ...Why are they so popular ? Do you really think a huge percent of players are choosing them because they suck, and are ineffective? Yes I get they you don't want to play "change and die" However, with many mechs, you can take effective cover and move in or out of firing ranges allowing the player a tactical choice...unless they target you with LRM's. In witch case, its find deep cover or die. Yes AMS are broke, just like glass and many other features. But they are still not effective enough that people will always take them. If they were, then they would always be used. Some features are just BETTER, if 98% of advanced players chose double heat sinks, then it's not really a choice. Yes I get it that at the top competitive games, LRM's are not very popular. Getting there also REQUIRES certain things. Team play. If players like myself want to progress, then we are forced to join a "Clan", and since I cannot "chose" to play one on one, or 4 vs 4. I will ONLY be judged by my skill in a "Team" environment. If my preferred game style does not involve "take one for the team" " spot for me, so I can gain a ton of points" then I will always be ranked lower. I'm sure every person here has many a game because they were on a team that was weak. when a match goes to 8 vs 4, it's almost impossible to recover. Then you will die, your ranking lowers. If you want OUR game to survive, it needs new players, and running from rain is not fun, being stripped in 10 seconds because 3 boats get a lock is not fun, more so when you have no line of sight on them. If you need the pac to survive, then you cannot always hide, Many maps offer little cover. I look at it as simple math. Tons of weapons, lots of choices, if LRM's are so fine, then why is one weapon responsible for more damage (on me) than all the other types ? Players pick weapons based on what works. In plug matches, LRMs are devastating, and if your answer if "join a team" then I might just as well tell you to " skip LRM's because they make me unhappy". BOTH are unreasonable answers. The fact that they are not a problem at your level does not mean that are balanced. I object to them because I find they make game play unfun, not because I am always beaten by them. I understand there are many ways to counter them, I am just sick of playing most of my game thinking " Oh god, I hope they did not bring much rain"

[Pika]

Lmxar, on 26 September 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

As it stands right now, LRMs are way too powerful and common. Most games I play consist of at least four LRM 30+ mechs per side. To effectively pull off a LRMageddon, minimal teamwork is required, and on many open maps it is almost unstoppable. The thing is; LRMageddon is not fun. I have played in LRM mechs, and I have played against LRM mechs. Hiding 30 feet behind a ridge line and spamming missiles at some poor assault walking to meet his team 60 seconds into the match is not fun. Sitting behind a building and shooting red triangles all match is not fun either. It takes no skill whatsoever to keep your cursor in the generic area of the mech you are shooting at while not even being in LoS.

When one team has five LRM boats, the game is usually a foregone conclusion unless the LRM heavy team is terrible, or the other team is very highly coordinated AND stacks a ton of ECM. The skill required to defeat this 'strategy' versus the difficulty to defend against it is far too one sided. When both teams are super-LRM heavy, I end up staring at various buildings half of the match trying to avoid LRMs. It kills the enjoyability of MWO. MWO to me is supposed to be a mech sim that is about coming up with your own unique build for your mech and seeing how your skills compare to others'. Generic builds like the pre-launch splatcats, the old PPC/AC5 poptarts, 2 gauss/2PPC dire whales, and now the LRMageddon just ruin the game for me. I am not saying that LRMs should be nerfed into almost complete uselessness like other weapons have been, but having 200 LRM tubes on one team in a match is too much. Toning down the missile arc so it is not so high would help things a great deal. Making LRMs spread more like in tabletop, where only a fraction of them would hit would also reduce the effectiveness, and would probably be better since it is a lore friendly solution. Just do something.

When the game launched, I thought really hard about whether I wanted to be a founder or not. I did not, and I think I made the correct decision based on the game's development so far. Since then, I have spent a fair amount of money on the game only to walk away out of frustration with the poor balancing and lack of development twice. I am really encouraged by the new steps PGI is taking in being more open about announcements, and am cautiously optimistic. That said the excessive use of LRMs is really killing the game for me.

We still doing this? LURMs serve a vital role in this game. You every noticed what happens on Terra Therma? Or any map where there are ECM on both sides? What happens? Everyone sits around, picking their nose waiting for something to happen. Your assault 'Mechs cower in the tunnel, or under a rock, your lights refuse to spot, NARC or TAG for fear of losing the wonderful ECM coverage and the game becomes about as far from MechWarrior as I can imagine.

LRMs force you to close with the target and get under his effective range, and therefore create a fight, or to punish player cowardice. Now stop waiting for the explosive rain to stop, get under an ECM light and push together to the enemy. LRMs were only a worry in the first week of my time in this game, then I learnt how to play.

[Wolfways]

Captain Stern, on 27 September 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

Kjudoon, If they are so heavy nerfed ...Why are they so popular ? Do you really think a huge percent of players are choosing them because they suck, and are ineffective? Yes I get they you don't want to play "change and die" However, with many mechs, you can take effective cover and move in or out of firing ranges allowing the player a tactical choice...unless they target you with LRM's. In witch case, its find deep cover or die. Yes AMS are broke, just like glass and many other features. But they are still not effective enough that people will always take them. If they were, then they would always be used. Some features are just BETTER, if 98% of advanced players chose double heat sinks, then it's not really a choice. Yes I get it that at the top competitive games, LRM's are not very popular. Getting there also REQUIRES certain things. Team play. If players like myself want to progress, then we are forced to join a "Clan", and since I cannot "chose" to play one on one, or 4 vs 4. I will ONLY be judged by my skill in a "Team" environment. If my preferred game style does not involve "take one for the team" " spot for me, so I can gain a ton of points" then I will always be ranked lower. I'm sure every person here has many a game because they were on a team that was weak. when a match goes to 8 vs 4, it's almost impossible to recover. Then you will die, your ranking lowers. If you want OUR game to survive, it needs new players, and running from rain is not fun, being stripped in 10 seconds because 3 boats get a lock is not fun, more so when you have no line of sight on them. If you need the pac to survive, then you cannot always hide, Many maps offer little cover. I look at it as simple math. Tons of weapons, lots of choices, if LRM's are so fine, then why is one weapon responsible for more damage (on me) than all the other types ? Players pick weapons based on what works. In plug matches, LRMs are devastating, and if your answer if "join a team" then I might just as well tell you to " skip LRM's because they make me unhappy". BOTH are unreasonable answers. The fact that they are not a problem at your level does not mean that are balanced. I object to them because I find they make game play unfun, not because I am always beaten by them. I understand there are many ways to counter them, I am just sick of playing most of my game thinking " Oh god, I hope they did not bring much rain"

LRM's are popular for bad players because they are generally facing bad players. The weapon is not good, it's just good at killing bad players. No other weapon depends so much on the ability of the enemy in deciding whether it works well or not.
It has nothing to do with teams either. I've been playing solo since closed beta and have no problems with LRM's because nearly every map is covered with terrain that blocks LRM's if you use it right. Just breaking LOS is not always the answer, sometimes you need to hug cover. I'm so used to it that i barely think about LRM's anymore and rarely take much damage from them. On the other hand, if I'm using LRM's my enemy are usually good enough (and using ECM/AMS) to avoid getting hit by LRM's. Some matches i can do a lot of damage (1000+) but that is rare. Usually i get around 500 damage which is comparable to my other non-LRM mechs, but I've had plenty of matches where I've had less than 200 damage due to good enemy players and ECM.
There's a reason most people have about a 30%-40% hit rate with LRM's but 80%-90% with other weapons.

In the majority of cases, if you die, or even take a lot of LRM damage it's your fault. Everyone screws up now and then, but if you regularly have trouble from LRM's then it's because you are a bad pilot. I'm not saying that as an insult, just an observation from 3 years of playing.

[zagibu]

Clan tech is mostly to blame. An LRM10 for 2.5 tons...why wouldn't you take one or two in ANY build, if you have free missile slots?

[Kjudoon]

Captain Stern, on 27 September 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

Kjudoon, If they are so heavy nerfed ...Why are they so popular ? Do you really think a huge percent of players are choosing them because they suck, and are ineffective? Yes I get they you don't want to play "change and die" However, with many mechs, you can take effective cover and move in or out of firing ranges allowing the player a tactical choice...unless they target you with LRM's. In witch case, its find deep cover or die. Yes AMS are broke, just like glass and many other features. But they are still not effective enough that people will always take them. If they were, then they would always be used. Some features are just BETTER, if 98% of advanced players chose double heat sinks, then it's not really a choice. Yes I get it that at the top competitive games, LRM's are not very popular. Getting there also REQUIRES certain things. Team play. If players like myself want to progress, then we are forced to join a "Clan", and since I cannot "chose" to play one on one, or 4 vs 4. I will ONLY be judged by my skill in a "Team" environment. If my preferred game style does not involve "take one for the team" " spot for me, so I can gain a ton of points" then I will always be ranked lower. I'm sure every person here has many a game because they were on a team that was weak. when a match goes to 8 vs 4, it's almost impossible to recover. Then you will die, your ranking lowers. If you want OUR game to survive, it needs new players, and running from rain is not fun, being stripped in 10 seconds because 3 boats get a lock is not fun, more so when you have no line of sight on them. If you need the pac to survive, then you cannot always hide, Many maps offer little cover. I look at it as simple math. Tons of weapons, lots of choices, if LRM's are so fine, then why is one weapon responsible for more damage (on me) than all the other types ? Players pick weapons based on what works. In plug matches, LRMs are devastating, and if your answer if "join a team" then I might just as well tell you to " skip LRM's because they make me unhappy". BOTH are unreasonable answers. The fact that they are not a problem at your level does not mean that are balanced. I object to them because I find they make game play unfun, not because I am always beaten by them. I understand there are many ways to counter them, I am just sick of playing most of my game thinking " Oh god, I hope they did not bring much rain"

I understand why you might think that way, but let's cut through some misconceptions here that belay your join status.

1. LRMs are not "popular" at the competitive levels because they are mathematically the least efficient weapon for heat, weight, risk and DPS compared to all other comparable DF weapons. It is not a style choice. Yes, Indirect Fire and guidance is excellent, but it does not compare ton for ton against the weapons that ARE currently used like Gauss, ERLLs, ERPPCs UAC5s and the like.

2. AMS is not supposed to be "Lurm-b-Gon". It is designed to *decrease* the damage by shooting down up to 4 LRMs per volley per unit. It is never supposed to be a force field for one particular weapon. And why do most good players not take AMS? SImple, it's tonnage better spent elsewhere, and they know how to use cover and positioning and probably pack "RaDerp" as I call it to break locks causing them to miss. If your mech moves over 75kph, you can dodge a LOT of incoming missiles if you know how and no longer need AMS.

3. There are some extremely good players out there who have no problems with LRMs. They drive me crazy. You don't have to join a guild if you don't want to but I wouldn't recommend it for a team game, but some guys thrive that way. More power to them, for it is the game they choose to play.

4. Because the current state of electronic warfare in this game, LRMs are a 'feast or famine' weapon. With the right map and the right enemy loadout and right allies LRMs clean house. Change those rather turmultuous variables and you get your head handed to you on a platter with a side of kale, and the dressing of your choice. All it takes is one unlucky break and the game changes. That is the nature of running an LRM mech, which I have done since I bought my first mech.

5. Call LRMs 'noob toobs', 'skilless weapons', 'cheap spam' or whatever you want. They are also in introductory weapon. They are the easiest weapon in the game to do POORLY at. ANyone can spam all day long and do diddly squirt because they don't check ranges, ignore cover, change targets thinking the missiles are fire and forget... all sorts of things they can do to suck with LRMs. But because of their nature, they provide a launching pad for newer player and a different style of play that is not for an adrenaline brawler but a more strategic thinker. When people do develop more skills, decide they want to learn the craft of playing this game, they grow on from there and create more balanced and different mechs. That is why you see them more at lower levels. Often a good next step is learning how to LRMish in big mediums or fast heavies which is an entirely different gameplay too.

6. Damage from LRMs is often misleading. They are very similar to long range LB10x's in that they spread and 'scour' armor off, giving inflated damage numbers and assists, but terrible kill stats which although are less XP than assists, they are tactically more significant. A dead mech cannot share armor or shoot back. LRMS suck at this unless you really know what you're doing, tune your loadout and use things like artemis, tag and LOS to refine your weapons and tear the enemy a new one.

7. If you go down 2-0 you are already in deep trouble. 4-0 and you're generally lost unless a miracle occurs and those 4 mechs that got killed immasculated the enemy's assaults and a big heavy to the point where a light can get 4 quick kills and turn the tide. This is the nature of the game and why teamwork and being a team player is so important. Something, BTW, that LRMs are forced to live by. You work to help your brawlers. You work to pin the enemy snipers behind cover. You stay close to the battle and hopefully have enough secondary weapon that when your LRM bunkers run dry, you can take your nearly pristine armor and go in for mop up help with the brawlers and share armor with them.

8. People choose weapons based on a lot of things. Some min/max the game to be the best munchkin possible (there's some old school TT terms for you). SOme of us have FPS or Ping restrictions requiring us to stick to certain gameplay styles and weapon choices. Some prefer a more sedate game, and others want an adrenaline rush. Do not assume anyone likes playing the game the way you do.

Hope this helps you out.

[Mordin Ashe]

Noone in high elo uses LRMs constantly, they are simply that bad. Rarely you see ECM, AMS is virtualy non-existant and LRMs only occur in a week after new LRM-friendly Mech was introduced. If you meet a mad person who takes LRMs into high elo matches, you kill him. Nothing more, LRMs don't fight back, you can just hide or snipe from cover. And even if you decide to stand in the rain and get hammered, hey, its not like those LRMs will kill you under 30 seconds, just keep moving, keep shooting and there is no way the LRM boat will kill you.

That is the reason why they aren't used. Killing someone with LRMs takes a looooooong time. You are better off with a PPC or two. Remember, in battle you don't want to shoot at the enemy (exactly what LRMs offer), you want to kill the enemy - and for that task lurms are severely lacking performance. Plus, counters.