744 replies to this topic

[SixstringSamurai]

Quote

While analyzing why certain players still enter combat with as little as 1-2 JJs, we discovered (or at least reminded ourselves) that the JJ turn rate while in the air was the same whether you had 1 JJ or 5+. This is obviously a huge disadvantage for 'Mechs such as the Summoner that have 5 fixed JJs for 5 tons. We are making an adjustment so that the turn rate while in the air while using JJs will increase with the number of JJs equipped. This means that a 'Mech such as the Summoner will have a more appropriate advantage in a brawling situation over a non-jump capable Heavy, or one utilizing far less JJs. This, in combination with the small change in JJ thrust, should mean 'Mechs such as the Summoner will have a more appropriate advantage for its tonnage spent on JJs

The reason I enter combat with 1-2 jump jets is because I cannot afford to bring more. Due the current state of cooling and weapon heat my light mechs need every available ton for DHS just to keep my mech from overheating to death. I'd really love to to see a ramped scale based on class or role since I feel the current system has really destroyed what would've been great mechs ie the Hunchback 4P and the Nova. I feel both mechs have huge disadvantages in their design enough that causing them to overheat while using their key feature is just sad.

[Hellzero]

Russ Bullock, on 29 September 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

You are assuming that the Victor isn't being changed? The Victor negative quirks are being flushed. Of course this immediately puts it in Tier 1 category again so it will not receive additional quirks but yes the negative ones have been flushed.

Russ, I have no words... My baby, *Vicky*, is coming back!!! Everything has been above & beyond what the past years have shown, while IGP was still around.
- Thank you for taking the community by the horns & regardless how far in the future certain things will be; the present line of communication & dealing with "hardtalk" face-on, is something I can truly admire.

- Everything on that list is something I look forward to; and as TBR's agility isn't capped like Victor's was(after its release)... I see no reason for the moment for people to grime; yet.
- I for one am looking for variety & character in all mechs; and the JJs have been the Summoner's biggest downfall thus far; but the present line might give certain edge even to the TBR-S; with the JJ tweaks(it'd be different from the other variants considerably; as a variant). So I won't shoot the messenger, I'll see how this plays out(with optimism).

Edited by Hellzero, 29 September 2014 - 09:29 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 29 September 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

I would like to add... moving Paul to work on CW instead of balance has wholly improved the balancing in general.

I hope this continues.

I'm definitely getting the impression that Paul is better at Game Design than balancing. CW is shaping up to sound pretty awesome, but honestly the balance changes since Russ has taken an active role there have been far and away better overall.

[Kael Posavatz]

You are either missing my point, or I am missing yours.

'Locked slots' were supposed to be determined by the Prime CT and now they...aren't.

Jump Jets were considered equipment and now they...aren't? Or at least they aren't for Clan mechs?

Jump Jets on the Kit Fox-S legs/side torsos were modular, they could be left in, moved around, or pulled out, and now they aren't.

If jump jets aren't hardwired into the frame of the Mech (Kit Fox, Timber Wolf), then why should it be forced to run them?

I could understand going to a 'hardpoint' like system so that only the S-variant component could mount it, but creating a situation where S-variant components have to run it makes IS mechs actually more customizable than Clan Mechs as they can, at the very least, put their jump jets wherever in the torsos or legs they please.

It isn't a case of having to deprive Timberwolfs of mass and space to nerf certain builds. PGI has at least been upfront about that (pop-tarts, PPC/Gauss snipers, etc) in the past. Actually I would probably be more accepting if that were the case

changing how the entire jump jet system works in Clan Mechs that are not hard-wired with them, this close to community warfare is incredibly frustrating. Even more so since the only Kit Fox pods with ballistic hardpoints are the S-variant side torsos. Finding a half-ton in a mech that doesn't have any tonnage to spare, whose missile hardpoints are sub-optimal to the Adder, and is (currently) the only Clan Mech with ECM with the others not scheduled to arrive (At best, for those who bought the Wave 2 packs) for months.

[McMatt]

I like JJ changes. I bought Summoner P past weekend and I was deciding to bought two more to master them or not. Now that's not a question any more. Just how quick can I earn C-bills.

[HashtagComStarWasRight]

Kael 17, on 29 September 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

If jump jets aren't hardwired into the frame of the Mech (Kit Fox, Timber Wolf), then why should it be forced to run them?

They are (will be) hardwired into the frame (omnipod), that's the point.

[Mylardis]

Russ Bullock, on 29 September 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

A Heat system and how your mech behaves is not something in development yet.

As to stock builds, the quirks wherever possible were created with this in mind or a combination of stock load outs and just what ends up being most effective in MWO

I haven't read the complete thread and I suppose I'm not the only one interested:

Will those quirk adjustments specifically include putting the Victors back in their place? JJ changes will probably make the Highlander useful again, but the Victor doesn't rely on JJ alone - it was always meant to be the most mobile and agile assault mech.

Edited by DasAmok, 29 September 2014 - 10:00 PM.

[Reignfire]

Just wanted to say russ as a long time player i really agree with these ideas. I cant wait to see the impact they make. The T wolf needed this "nerf" what ever that means. The summoner will be viable finally. T wolf even with this will still be epic.

[Hellzero]

MauttyKoray, on 29 September 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

Not happy specifically about the HBK-4G getting AC-20 specific when it is a multi-ballistic point mech. The AC-20 quirk would be better off given to the 4H which only has 1 ballistic point and therefore benefits more from bringing an AC-20. The 4H's setups include 3 AC-2, 2 AC-5/UAC-5, 1 AC-10 + 1 AC-5, and even AC-10/AC20 + 2 MGs. Where are the only 2 ballistics its worth taking on the 4H are an AC-10 or AC-20.

Understandably, there are more energy weapons on the 4H as well, which seems to correlate to the energy weapon boost quirks as well you're giving to the 4G. My point is look over the variants and their weaponry again to make sure you're not giving a quirk to a mech that won't find it as useful as a general quirk or vice versa.

Russ mentioned earlier in the thread, that for 4G; there's going to be general Ballistic quirks and on top of that the AC20 quirk, that stacks

[Evengar Dragonis]

Quote

Omnimech Fixed Jump Jet Slots
[color=#00FFFF]The current rule for Omnimechs is that slots are set by the Prime variant. For instance, the Prime variant of the Summoner has 5 fixed JJs and this rule is dictated across each variant. We are expanding this rule slightly when it comes specifically to Jump Jets so that the rule is determined by the variant instead. What this can mean, for example, is that the Timber Wolf S variant will come with 5 fixed JJs. This also means that if you are using (again, for example) the Timber Wolf Prime and decide to equip the RT omnipod of the Timber Wolf S you will have 2 fixed Jump Jets and another 2 if you equip the LT omnipod.[/color]

I am very upset. I do not play Timber Wolf S, I use 'Mech as D variant with 4 rocket points. Without JJ. Now I will not have the internal space for the missiles.
You have the opportunity to give us a fourth configuration for our OmniMech?

Edited by Leonid, 29 September 2014 - 11:30 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Hellzero, on 29 September 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:

Russ mentioned earlier in the thread, that for 4G; there's going to be general Ballistic quirks and on top of that the AC20 quirk, that stacks

Again, being multi-ballistic oriented, it would gain more benefit from an AC-10 specific quirk as it can then bring 2MGs or AC2s. An AC-20 quirk would benefit the 4H more as it has only 1 ballistic slot. This could be in addition to an AC-10 quirk and higher laser bonuses than the 4G as it is more laser heavy.

Basically-

HBK-4G
- AC-10
?- (U)AC-5?
- Ballistic General
- Energy General

HBK-4H
- AC-20
?- Ballistic General?
- Energy General (Higher than 4G)

Edited by MauttyKoray, 29 September 2014 - 10:17 PM.

[Hellzero]

MauttyKoray, on 29 September 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Again, being multi-ballistic oriented, it would gain more benefit from an AC-10 specific quirk as it can then bring 2MGs or AC2s.

Without derailing this(hopefully), I meant that the 4G is getting a Ballistic Quirk(general multi-ballistic quirk that benefits all ballistic weapons on it), that benefit its 3 ballistic slots with the MGs/AC2s/AC10s/AC20s, so forth; and on top of that it has the AC20 specific quirk that stacks on top of the previous Ballistic Quirks; to benefit it even more.
- As the 4G is renown for that trademark weapon; I don't see why it should receive a possible *same weapon specific boost as the 4H*, that the 4G has with its AC20, as the 4H has an AC10.
(yet its still getting a boost for using an AC10; but not possibly as major as the 4H would get)

(just making sure we're "speaking the same language here")

Edited by Hellzero, 29 September 2014 - 10:24 PM.

[Deathlike]

Kael 17, on 29 September 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

You are either missing my point, or I am missing yours.

'Locked slots' were supposed to be determined by the Prime CT and now they...aren't.

Jump Jets were considered equipment and now they...aren't? Or at least they aren't for Clan mechs?

Jump Jets on the Kit Fox-S legs/side torsos were modular, they could be left in, moved around, or pulled out, and now they aren't.

If jump jets aren't hardwired into the frame of the Mech (Kit Fox, Timber Wolf), then why should it be forced to run them?

I could understand going to a 'hardpoint' like system so that only the S-variant component could mount it, but creating a situation where S-variant components have to run it makes IS mechs actually more customizable than Clan Mechs as they can, at the very least, put their jump jets wherever in the torsos or legs they please.

It isn't a case of having to deprive Timberwolfs of mass and space to nerf certain builds. PGI has at least been upfront about that (pop-tarts, PPC/Gauss snipers, etc) in the past. Actually I would probably be more accepting if that were the case

changing how the entire jump jet system works in Clan Mechs that are not hard-wired with them, this close to community warfare is incredibly frustrating. Even more so since the only Kit Fox pods with ballistic hardpoints are the S-variant side torsos. Finding a half-ton in a mech that doesn't have any tonnage to spare, whose missile hardpoints are sub-optimal to the Adder, and is (currently) the only Clan Mech with ECM with the others not scheduled to arrive (At best, for those who bought the Wave 2 packs) for months.

Let me be clear...

There were discussions previously on how to approach the problem between "hardwired JJs" (Summoner+Nova) vs "non-hardwired JJs" (Timberwolf+Kitfox). The premise is strictly about mech construction and how those rules "penalized" the mechs affected by it, while giving FULL customization to those that benefited from it.

There were two choices:

1) Allow the Summoner+Nova to remove their JJs and NOT hardwire them. That wouldn't exactly bring them in line with their competition (Timberwolf and Stormcrow respectively), but it would make them more customizable.

2) Force fixed omnipod-hardpoints on the omnipods that naturally have JJs, such as the Timberwolf-S's side torsos and the Kitfox's side torsos and legs. This would reduce/nerf the customizeability of the Timberwolf and Kitfox, but bring them in line a little with the mechs that have those JJ hardpoints fixed.

Both solutions would inevitably deviate from mech construction rules regardless. PGI simply ended up choosing the latter.

Leaving it as is would require major quirks of some sort (some sort of JJ bonus to the hardwired mechs), but that won't really change the status of the Timberwolf.

Whether you agree or not with the change is one thing... just understand this discussion was born on the issue of customizability and how is DOES affect other chassis in an online game.

"For balance, Corerule ignore."

Edited by Deathlike, 29 September 2014 - 10:25 PM.

[LiGhtningFF13]

"Since the implementation of the Queue size window, we have been working on an improvement to the reward system to help promote the use of Medium and Light 'Mechs."

Thanks for the info! By the way that's a nice idea to support light and medium pilots!

[Destoroyah]

I'm curious what is PGI's stance on mechs with super inflated JJ like the spider 5V? Most mechs have 5-7 JJ, but the 5V with 12 doesn't feel like you are getting the full benefit of the JJ even though you got almost 90% more then almost every other mech.

Example my raven 4X with 5 JJ can jump from the outer ring of the terra terma doughnut to slightly past the center of the central ring. Now my 5V with 12 JJ can only go a little over the edge of the central ring. With 12 JJ I would think I'd be able to jump from one side of the outer ring to the other side since I got over 100% more JJ then my raven.

The fixed JJ for clan mechs makes since from a lore point of view. Clan mechs where designed with a modular weapon system so they can quickly modify for the situation needed, but the structural was hardwired so time wasn't wasted modifying the mech. So even if they could take out the JJ the housing for the JJ would still be taking up space and the clans are too lazy to take the extra time removing it let alone removing the JJ. That's how I see it at least.

I hope the battlemater gets some nice buffs with the awesome being a good weapon platform now and victors about to get good mobility. I'd like to see battlemasters be more scrappier(durable) so each 80 tonner has it's own flavor.

Edited by Destoroyah, 29 September 2014 - 10:42 PM.

[MasterBLB]

Overall,a good changers Mr Russ.I have a note about JJs,though.
Please leave effectiveness of a single jump jet as it is,but buff considerably reward for adding more of them.
This way there will be sense to take just one or many of these.

[jag rip]

Are UI 2.0 bugfixes and improvements somewhere on the radar by chance?
There are still a lot of little annoyances that add up when playing a lot. I guess you could ask the NGNG Guys where to start here.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

I haven't read all the feedback, yet ... so some of this might be redundant.

TL;DR; Some of it looks good, some of it has peaked my interest ... thanks!

October Road Map
- but, it's not even October yet ... you're not supposed to communicate with us early! Who are you and what have you done with the PGI (of 2013)?

Fall Damage
- nice

Jump Jet Thrust
- very nice

Jump Jet Turn Rate
- so is it a nerf to one JJ builds, or is it a buff to multi-JJ builds, or both? If the baseline we're used to changes, this will probably cause more people to rethink their light 'mech builds than any change implemented yet.

Omnimech Fixed Jump Jet Slots
- thank you

Destruction of a Clan Side Torso

"... full engine critical hit system that would affect both IS and Clan 'Mechs ..."
- ooh, want more info

"... not make movement a part of the penalty but to save that for some future implementation on the effects of heat on your 'Mechs functionality."
- You tease! Want more info now!

"... loss of 20% of the engines internal heat sink capacity."
- good compromise

Updated Reward System
"... rework the rewards table by adding some brand new rewards, as well as adjusting how the current ones work."
- Sounds good, but (again) .... want more info!

Inner Sphere Quirk System
- I am so looking forward to this ... while I'm not really excited about quirks rewarding specific builds, I am looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with to help out some of the lesser-used chassis and variants.

Thank you for the early and insightful communication!

[Wintersdark]

... It IS a little weird to get a month's roadmap before the first patch of that month. I can't help but hearken back to the roadmaps of old, that would often come _after_ the patches they were discussing.

I love the new PGI.

[627]

whoa, no more LRM60 timberwolves

adapt or die I would say...


The only question I have in mind is, where does the JJ change put mechs with only 2 Jumpjets?
Jester and Huginn come to my mind and in some extend shadowhawks and highlanders with only 3 jets. Seems to be no reason to equip JJs on these mechs anymore.