166 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

ManDaisy, on 29 September 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Going by that logics, clans should lose 66% or 2/3s their engine heat sinks, not only 20%.

No that actually isn't logical, only 1/5 of the engine is actually destroyed, so 20% does make sense. The point is that you don't need to completely destroy every part of the engine to make it inoperable, like how Inner Sphere XL engines are gone even though they only lose 1/4 of the engine if the side torso is destroyed.

Besides that, if the penalty for losing a side torso is being practically useless then there's not much point in the mech staying alive, the advantage needs to be at least somewhat worthwhile and your idea would make that not be the case. Keep in mind that when a torso is lost that means all the equipment in there is also lost in addition to losing the arm and all of the equipment stored there, so it's not exactly a small penalty as it is, it's just that clans needed an actual penalty (beyond needing to destroy 2 side torso components, which is barely any kind of penalty at all) for carrying an XL engine, but they do not need to be crippled into uselessness.

Edited by Pjwned, 30 September 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[DaZur]

MeiSooHaityu, on 30 September 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

The Clans cannot be far superior like cannon states because given the type of game we are playing, it would be poor game design. In a PvP environment like this, they need to be different but equal.

There was a reason many TT guys like the older pre-vlan eras, there was no Clans to muck up their balance. There is a thread going on now about how 3025 is often their favorite and on more than one occasion they site the Clans made a mess of things.

If Clans are far superior, what is the motivation to run IS? Just the challenge of it isn't good enough for 90% of any game community. CW where 90% of the gaming populace is Clan would kind of break things.

Even if we buffed the clans and dropped 12v8 or so (remember we buffed the Clans to their superior beauty), why would I still want to be IS? I have 33% less chance to earn rewards (c-bills and xp) because I have 33% less targets and if I get caught 1v1 in a match I am guaranteed to lose. You can buff IS rewards, but you can't buff KDR and and total kills.

It just isn't good multiplayer game design.

Good games known for excellent balance do well because of different but equal. StarCraft is a great example. Each faction (Zerg, Terrain, and Protoss) are radically different but equal. If the Protoss was way superior, everyone would pick it and it would break the game.

IS and Clan need strengths and weakness that compliment each other that makes both appealing and unique, but never superior to the other.

It breaks cannon, it messes with what I learned playing the old games, but it is the sacrifice made for player balance in a purely multiplayer game with what we have to play with.

Many will disagree I suppose, and they have good reason, but they don't see how badly it can break the entire game.

That's kind'a my point... IMHO, Clans are not vastly "better" than IS... just "different".

Problem I see far too often is Clanners trying to pilot IS like Clanners and vice versa.... Some practical application and it's fairly easy to see both require entirely different approaches....

Again, balance doesn't means "equity"... it means "parity". Right now IMHO we are not far off from this parity and the forthcoming adjustments will only equalize the existing disparity.

Then again... I'm known to be delusional from time to time so all things in context.

[Almond Brown]

Rebas Kradd, on 29 September 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

20% heat penalties will be a drop in the bucket in the 12vs12 furballs we're playing in.

If you want to make a nerf noticeable in the current fracas, you need to either reduce MWO to 4v4 or come up with a nerf that will have more noticeable and pronounced effects amidst the current high damage output. You won't even notice a 20% heat issue before my the next volley of Dire Wolf weaponry hits you.

You make it sound like you don't lose 50% of your Firepower as well with the lose. Add 20% cooling as well, it all adds up.

[ManDaisy]

Hey big news! When I lose my side torso in my STANDARD (ANY) engine I ALSO LOSE 50% OF MY FIREPOWER! The firepower loss happens no matter what! Quit trying to tack it on like an additional penalty.

Edited by ManDaisy, 30 September 2014 - 11:34 AM.

[Metus regem]

ManDaisy, on 30 September 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Hey big news! When I lose my side torso in my STANDARD (ANY) engine I ALSO LOSE 50% OF MY FIREPOWER! The firepower loss happens no matter what! Quit trying to tack it on like an additional penalty.

Depends on the Mech, if a Highlander 732/733 were to lose it's LT, it would be as hurt as if it lost it's right side....

[Mechteric]

I would agree that only a 2 heat sink loss doesn't seem like it would harm the mech at all, especially since if they lost any weapons they'd already probably be running cooler to where it won't make much difference. Now I see why they are delaying the speed loss since that will be nice to have also when running too hot, but in the meantime it should be more of a heat penalty.

That said, I thought in TableTop that each engine crit you take brings along +5 heat, so in fact you should lose the equivalent of 5 engine double heat sinks when losing a side torso.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 30 September 2014 - 11:43 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Firemage, on 29 September 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:

keep in mind the TW S omnipods are getting hit soon to.

Partially correct..... ANYTHING WITH JJ will get hit soon, KTF will get hurt from this too. But they are increasing thrust and other stuff as well as turning speed so the summoner is more viable....which in turn will make the 5jj toting TBR much faster and like a ballerina in the air.

*Le sigh* i dont see this working at all! But let try and keep our fingers crossed!

Edited by DarthRevis, 30 September 2014 - 11:46 AM.

[Metus regem]

DarthRevis, on 30 September 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Partially correct..... ANYTHING WITH JJ will get hit soon, KTF will get hurt from this too. But they are increasing thrust and other stuff as well as turning speed so the summoner is more viable....which in turn will make the 5jj toting TBR much faster and like a ballerina in the air.

*Le sigh* i dont see this working at all! But let try and keep our fingers crossed!

I know, I'm already looking at having to rip out the TC Mk. IV (possibly CAP too) out of my Timber D's to make room for the 4 to 5 JJ's I'm going to get stuck with soon...

[CocoaJin]

IceSerpent, on 30 September 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

Losing 1 cylinder doesn't stop engine from running even when it's an i4 (it doesn't run very well, but vehicle still moves). I am fairly certain that losing 2 cylinders on v8 won't completely kill it either.

But a fusion generator is essentially a single cylinder engine...it's either capable of maintaining sufficient containment for some level of output or none at all. The heatsinks have nothing to do with this...they are an accessory required for operation of the various mech systems, not the engine. Two damage crits slots are destroying heatsink accessory, but presumably have yet to decrease field containment enough through engine damage to shut the reactor down.

[Scratx]

CocoaJin, on 30 September 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

But a fusion generator is essentially a single cylinder engine...it's either capable of maintaining sufficient containment for some level of output or none at all. The heatsinks have nothing to do with this...they are an accessory required for operation of the various mech systems, not the engine. Two damage crits slots are destroying heatsink accessory, but presumably have yet to decrease field containment enough through engine damage to shut the reactor down.

Heatsinks in the engine are required to keep it cool. That's why when in tabletop the engine takes non-lethal hits, the damage to the containment vessel produces heat. That's because the heat inside the engine leaks out.

Or so the theory goes. Holes in that are actually easy to do, but I shan't bother with that.

TL;DR Heatsinks are canonically required for engines to work

[Brody319]

CocoaJin, on 30 September 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

But a fusion generator is essentially a single cylinder engine...it's either capable of maintaining sufficient containment for some level of output or none at all. The heatsinks have nothing to do with this...they are an accessory required for operation of the various mech systems, not the engine. Two damage crits slots are destroying heatsink accessory, but presumably have yet to decrease field containment enough through engine damage to shut the reactor down.

The engines in this game don't make sense anyway. why do the engines that take up MORE space, lighter than the engines that take up less space? It cant be the parts, or you could just put lighter parts in a standard engine and lower its weight. So why the hell do IS engines weight less when they take up more space?

Clearly the Clan engines are redundant systems. Just standard engines with their containment systems placed in the side torsos. this allows them to lose a side torso and keep going.

[Mechteric]

Brody319, on 30 September 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

The engines in this game don't make sense anyway. why do the engines that take up MORE space, lighter than the engines that take up less space? It cant be the parts, or you could just put lighter parts in a standard engine and lower its weight. So why the hell do IS engines weight less when they take up more space?

Thats a dumb question, Have you never seen a carbon fiber car? Is it not the same size as a normal car but much lighter? Or on the other hand the same weight as a much smaller car yet its bigger?

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 30 September 2014 - 12:14 PM.

[-Natural Selection-]

So including the engine there is 24hs in my build.

By the time I have lost both arms and a side torso I have lost 9hs, 50% of my weapons and then there will be an added 20% loss. Depending on which side you know off, I may actually loose more than 50%. Now "if" you need more than that to put me in check, I don't know what to tell you..

**oh plus knocking 2 tons out my build with JJs. I can just run out and shut down for 2 mins if it will help?

Edited by Mickey Knoxx, 30 September 2014 - 12:17 PM.

[Brody319]

CapperDeluxe, on 30 September 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

Thats a dumb question, Have you never seen a carbon fiber car? Is it not the same size as a normal car but much lighter? Or on the other hand the same weight as a much smaller car yet its bigger?

once again. Lighter parts, so why the F do you not slap those lighter parts in your STD engine?! It would be slightly heavier than your current XL engine, but a hell of a lot less heavy than the current STD engine. So I ask again, why do XL engines need to be so damn big?

[Mechteric]

Brody319, on 30 September 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

once again. Lighter parts, so why the F do you not slap those lighter parts in your STD engine?! It would be slightly heavier than your current XL engine, but a hell of a lot less heavy than the current STD engine. So I ask again, why do XL engines need to be so damn big?

Game balance. Doesn't matter if you still haven't gotten it that bigger things can be lighter in mass, the fact is it's there to make sure you don't get something for nothing.

[Bilbo]

Brody319, on 30 September 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

once again. Lighter parts, so why the F do you not slap those lighter parts in your STD engine?! It would be slightly heavier than your current XL engine, but a hell of a lot less heavy than the current STD engine. So I ask again, why do XL engines need to be so damn big?

In this case the lighter materials may not be as strong and therefor must be bulkier in order to handle the stresses that are being applied to it. I'm sure there is some actual lore reason given but I don't know it.

[Project_Mercy]

As mentioned, the engine plating (crits) is designed to protect YOU from the engine, not the other way around. Depending on the rules, in TT when the engine goes, there's an explosion. It's basically opening up a fusion reaction to the air. The shielding and heat sinks are designed to wick heat AWAY from the engine. So when you damage the shielding, you're damaging all the crap that helps do that.

I'm sure they'll tweak the values until it's balanced. So far they've been doing slow changes to watch the moment, which is way better than radical changes.

[Metus regem]

Brody319, on 30 September 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

once again. Lighter parts, so why the F do you not slap those lighter parts in your STD engine?! It would be slightly heavier than your current XL engine, but a hell of a lot less heavy than the current STD engine.

For **** sakes! I've said it a few times now in this topic, the IS Light Engine... 75% of the weight of a standard (XL's are 50%), and it takes the same amount of space as a Clan XL...

http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light

"Designed to mimic the compact profile and light weight of Clan-tech XL Engines, the Light Fusion Engine weighs only 75% of a standard Fusion Engine. While not as dramatic as the 50% weight saving of an XL Engine, the real benefit of the Light Fusion Engine is that while it intrudes into the side torsos of a BattleMech, it takes up the same amount of space as a Clan extra-light engine, allowing a Light Fusion Engine equipped 'Mech to survive the destruction of a side-torso that would cripple an Inner Sphere XL engine equipped 'Mech."

[Dracol]

Viktor Drake, on 30 September 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Which is why I said buff IS XLs not nerf Clan XLs. Make it so IS mechs get the penalties when a ST gets knocked out rather than mech destruction. IS players get a buff and are happy while Clan players don't have to face a major nerf that is just going to piss them off royally and start up the negativity again.

Thinking this idea through to completion, if it were implemented, you remove all reasons to equip a standard engine.

IS when deciding on which engine to take can either:
A: lose a side torso with zero negative effects outside of equipment located in the side and arm at the cost of weight
B: Risk death by side torso destruction while gaining extra tonnage to increase their combat performance

The Freeborns have the freedom to choose what best suits their plays styles.

The genetically bred, warrior society Trueborn are restricted to a specific engine depending on chassis. It provides the weight savings without the risk of death.

This forced selection bears a penalty in the way of heat if a side torso is destroyed. More aggresive minded Mechwarriors who favor builds with symmetrical weapons layouts will feel the penalty the least if not at all. Mechwarriors who favor a more defensive, asymmetrical loadout are now penalized when their shield side is destroyed. Their ability to maintain 100% weapon efficiency after side torso destruction has been reduced.

Metus regem, on 30 September 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

For **** sakes! I've said it a few times now in this topic, the IS Light Engine... 75% of the weight of a standard (XL's are 50%), and it takes the same amount of space as a Clan XL...

http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light

"Designed to mimic the compact profile and light weight of Clan-tech XL Engines, the Light Fusion Engine weighs only 75% of a standard Fusion Engine. While not as dramatic as the 50% weight saving of an XL Engine, the real benefit of the Light Fusion Engine is that while it intrudes into the side torsos of a BattleMech, it takes up the same amount of space as a Clan extra-light engine, allowing a Light Fusion Engine equipped 'Mech to survive the destruction of a side-torso that would cripple an Inner Sphere XL engine equipped 'Mech."

Again, implement this and you remove all reasons to equip a standard or XL engine.

Edited by Dracol, 30 September 2014 - 12:28 PM.

[Metus regem]

That's what happened when the Light engine came in to service, it replaced the standard engine in most chassis that were not being price sensitive.

You could go XL, if you wanted free weight, but it was dicey at that point. Just like later there are XXL engines, if you really need the free weight to work with...