166 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

I think that's what I'd like to see from all the "Clans should die from shoulder blowout, too!" folks.

The intent was for the Clan technology base to play, and feel, significantly different from the IS tech base. The primary part of this was the Omni customization system as opposed to the Play-Do 'Mechs the Inner Sphere enjoys. Clan engines, structure, and certain fixed equipment as per TT rules was all non-negotiable, take-it-or-leave it, and in return the Clans gained much more flexibility and give in their chosen hardpoints as well as more durable XL engines that sat between an IS XL and an IS STD.

Now folks are clamoring for the CXL to become identical to an IS XL in terms of penalties ("Lose a shoulder? DED. DL W/IT"), with no relaxation of the Clan's baked-in limitations. And even those folks who are talking about relaxing those baked-in limitations don't get it. On the whole?

We don't want those limitations relaxed.

Most Clan pilots like the fact that the Clan technology base works much differently than the IS tech base. It's cool, it's an interesting take on the lore, and for the most part it works. Outside of a rare few perfect-storm 'Mechs, most Clan 'Mechs are either on par with, or even below, Inner Sphere equivalents in terms of performance. The two technology bases have different emphases in their weapons technology, different methods of customization, unique and different feels which speak to some players over others. That's the way it should be, and in sixty-two percent of cases (Cute Fox, Badder, Nopeva, Suckoner, Warhawk) it's there.

So stuff it for a while, would'ja? See what you get out of your quirk pass before you keep clamoring for the CXL to act exactly like an IS XL because BALANCE!!1!™

[ManDaisy]

1453 your on an island. NO ONE in this thread wants clan XLs to blow out and lead to instant death like IS XLs.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

What if the deductions are done on a Heat Sink count instead of percentage?

Here's a snip of how it should work lore-wise:




So a Clan mech losing a Side Torso, could then be losing the equivalent of 5 to 10 Heat Sinks or more (depending on how DHS is valued to the term Heat Build up).

10 DHS on an Elited Mech would be 2.30 Heat a second, and 16.8 Heat Capacity
(No Efficiencies is 2.00 heat a second and 14 Capacity).

05 DHS on an Elited Mech would be 1.15 Heat a second and 8.4 Heat Capacity
(No Efficiencies should be 1.00 heat a second and 7 capacity.

01 DHS on an Elited Mech would be 0.230 Heat a second in the engine (0.161 external) and 1.68 Heat Capacity
(No Efficiencies 0.200 heat a second in engine 0.14 external and 1.4 Heat Capacity)

I used Smurfy's Weapon Lab to double check numbers, I think I calculated properly.


Edit: Something didn't look right so I looked at the numbers in a spreadsheet again, and it seems that the base 30 Heat Capacity could be getting a boost on Elited mechs from 30 to 36. I wonder if that's really the case or not, but it's what it looks like with what I'm seeing at this point.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 30 September 2014 - 02:17 PM.

[1453 R]

ManDaisy, on 30 September 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

1453 your on an island. NO ONE in this thread wants clan XLs to blow out and lead to instant death like IS XLs.

No?

Way I see it, the sort of super-severe penalties you and Torgun and Hillslam over in his thread and many others are proposing are effective mission-kills anyways. if the 'Mech loses half its speed, turn/twist rates, and 66% of its cooling capabilities, it's not a threat anymore unless the other guy is dumb as a bag of Archons. And yet, unlike an IS XL player who gets to just disconnect, find a new match, and keep playing, the CXL driver gets to keep floundering on in his heat-addled, legged-through-the-shoulder slag heap until someone puts him out of his misery.

If you're going to try and insist on penalties designed to remove a shoulder-blown Clan 'Mech from the match, then you may as well just kill it outright and get it over with. Because no, not everything is "better than DEATH, which is what happens to the IS!" Ineffective-but-still-alive is no fun, and still represents a major dilution of the differences between the Clan and Inner Sphere technology bases.

WAIT, BLAST IT ALL. Your Spheroid tech is getting an enormous upswing in the near future here with the quirk pass, enough so that the additional heat penalties from CXL side torso loss may well turn out to be enough. Again I shall ask you - do you ever get nervous when you face down a Cute Fox/Badder/Nopeva/Suckoner/Peacedove? Do any of those strike you as horrid and terrible threats to the faint and fragile balance as MWO?

Or do you look at most of them and see a free lunch? And now you're pushing to get all of those machines mission-killed when they lose a shoulder?

[Pjwned]

1453 R, on 30 September 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

No?

Way I see it, the sort of super-severe penalties you and Torgun and Hillslam over in his thread and many others are proposing are effective mission-kills anyways. if the 'Mech loses half its speed, turn/twist rates, and 66% of its cooling capabilities, it's not a threat anymore unless the other guy is dumb as a bag of Archons. And yet, unlike an IS XL player who gets to just disconnect, find a new match, and keep playing, the CXL driver gets to keep floundering on in his heat-addled, legged-through-the-shoulder slag heap until someone puts him out of his misery.

If you're going to try and insist on penalties designed to remove a shoulder-blown Clan 'Mech from the match, then you may as well just kill it outright and get it over with. Because no, not everything is "better than DEATH, which is what happens to the IS!" Ineffective-but-still-alive is no fun, and still represents a major dilution of the differences between the Clan and Inner Sphere technology bases.

WAIT, BLAST IT ALL. Your Spheroid tech is getting an enormous upswing in the near future here with the quirk pass, enough so that the additional heat penalties from CXL side torso loss may well turn out to be enough. Again I shall ask you - do you ever get nervous when you face down a Cute Fox/Badder/Nopeva/Suckoner/Peacedove? Do any of those strike you as horrid and terrible threats to the faint and fragile balance as MWO?

Or do you look at most of them and see a free lunch? And now you're pushing to get all of those machines mission-killed when they lose a shoulder?

I have to agree with most of this, I want to see clan engines have an appropriate penalty for losing part of their engine but it seems like some people want the mech to be practically useless for losing a side torso.

There should be an advantage to clan XL engines that's actually worthwhile, but of course there should also be a fair penalty considering the advantage of lightweight engines that are not rendered useless when a side torso is blown off.

[Kali Rinpoche]

Russ's idea is fine until some kind of movement tree penalty is implemented.

[ManDaisy]

1453, you seems to misunderstand that any clan XL engine mech with 2 engine hits SHOULD BE rightfully half dead. After all you are missing HALF YOU MECH and more then HALF YOUR ENGINE.

Honestly this is like whining that legged mechs shoudn't be slow.

You want to claim that having a clan XL engine is a disadvantage? Not when they weigh a fraction of Standard engines and dont DIE immediately like IS XL engines!

Edited by ManDaisy, 30 September 2014 - 03:17 PM.

[Jonathan Paine]

I would have loved to see an even more accurate nerf based on side torso destruction - but this is my basic take away point:

IT IS BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW (which is nothing, btw)!

[Scratx]

ManDaisy, on 30 September 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

1453, you seems to misunderstand that any clan XL engine mech with 2 engine hits SHOULD BE rightfully half dead. After all you are missing HALF YOU MECH.

A mech with a standard engine with a leg blown off and both side torsos blown off is missing far more than half, yet it's still alive just fine. That's not a good argument.

Chill.

Let's see how it plays out, between the XL nerf, the JJ tuning/omnipod nerf and the mega-IS Quirkage... I think we'll need a while to digest how everything works out and what the new balance panorama looks like.

[Victor Morson]

20% is again, way too low. A Clan 'mech with a torso gone should be nearly crippled, but should positively not die.

It should be a tense waiting game to fire just a couple weapons at that point, not a hiccup (as planned) or a non-factor (as it is).

Likewise, this would have a LOT more impact with other heat effects, like engine slowdown.

[Brody319]

Victor Morson, on 30 September 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

20% is again, way too low. A Clan 'mech with a torso gone should be nearly crippled, but should positively not die.

It should be a tense waiting game to fire just a couple weapons at that point, not a hiccup (as planned) or a non-factor (as it is).

Likewise, this would have a LOT more impact with other heat effects, like engine slowdown.

I can tell you, losing heat sinks on most clan mechs is pretty devastating. Maybe buff the effects of all heat sinks inside the engine. make them twice as effective in dissipating heat when placed inside an engine. Then with the clan loses a side torso with the up coming patch that makes them lose heat sinks in the engine this becomes much more devastating a loss.

[ManDaisy]

again 20% heat sink loss after losing half your weapons = nothing.

[Weaselball]

Losing 20% heat-sink efficiency in the engine on top of losing a side-torso is going to totally RUIN my hardcore Direwolf build I've been taking out:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2c28a4cb5a315da

[1453 R]

ManDaisy, on 30 September 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

again 20% heat sink loss after losing half your weapons = nothing.

The Clan 'Mech in question has also just, y'know...lost half its weapons, as well as cooling capacity on what's left. Certainly an IS STD 'Mech that loses a shoulder has also theoretically lost half its weapons (are there any symmetrical IS STD builds left? Anywhere?), but the point remains that having shot off half the Clan 'Mech, you have successfully deprived the Clan 'Mech of half of itself.

I say unto you the same thing I said unto Destructicus when that guy was looking to butcher the Timber Wolf. Wait. And. See. It is the intent of the massive quirk package the Inner Sphere is about to get to change the balance point of the game. Everybody is about to get power-creep'd, and any big fat giganerf package people put together prior to seeing where things fall out after that quirk update is a waste of time as it will have to be flushed and re-evaluated anyways.

So knock it off. If the Clans need more foam after the IS Quirk Pass, they'll get it. Until then, it's a waste of time, energy, effort, and everything else.

[Phashe]

I think if my car looses 2 of its 8 cylinders, it runs poorly. Or if I blow off a side chunk of the motor with a cannonball, it diminishes it's effectiveness as an engine. I mean, I am generalizing and all that...

Clan engineering is strange magic.

[Hillslam]

I said it elsewhere and I'll say it here to go on record so I can fling "I TOLD YOU SO" in your faces later:

This "penalty" is a non-penalty and will be completely ignored, irrelevant, invisible and non-intrusive to clan mech piloting customers at all.

It will accomplish nothing and hence we'll have another go round of "balancing".


CLIFF'S NOTES:
Losing 50% of your weapons but only 20% of your cooling = ROFL whatever.

[1453 R]

Hillslam, on 30 September 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

I said it elsewhere and I'll say it here to go on record so I can fling "I TOLD YOU SO" in your faces later:

This "penalty" is a non-penalty and will be completely ignored, irrelevant, invisible and non-intrusive to clan mech piloting customers at all.

It will accomplish nothing and hence we'll have another go round of "balancing".


CLIFF'S NOTES:
Losing 50% of your weapons but only 20% of your cooling = ROFL whatever.

...and what about assymetric shield-side Clan machines that lose 0% of their weaponry when a side blows out but still lose a pile of heat capacity and dissipation anyways?

Seriously, people. SERIOUSLY. Settle down and wait to see what the IS quirk pass sets the new balance point at before screeching for moremoremoremoremoremoremoremoremore Clan Nerfination.

[Torgun]

1453 R, on 30 September 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

The Clan 'Mech in question has also just, y'know...lost half its weapons, as well as cooling capacity on what's left. Certainly an IS STD 'Mech that loses a shoulder has also theoretically lost half its weapons (are there any symmetrical IS STD builds left? Anywhere?), but the point remains that having shot off half the Clan 'Mech, you have successfully deprived the Clan 'Mech of half of itself.

I say unto you the same thing I said unto Destructicus when that guy was looking to butcher the Timber Wolf. Wait. And. See. It is the intent of the massive quirk package the Inner Sphere is about to get to change the balance point of the game. Everybody is about to get power-creep'd, and any big fat giganerf package people put together prior to seeing where things fall out after that quirk update is a waste of time as it will have to be flushed and re-evaluated anyways.

So knock it off. If the Clans need more foam after the IS Quirk Pass, they'll get it. Until then, it's a waste of time, energy, effort, and everything else.

Wait and see is something you do when you're not sure what a change will lead to. This change is obviously going to have close to no impact, it's almost not changing anything at all. So there is nothing at all to wait and see since the result is already obvious. The devs have just decided they want clan mechs to keep tanking more damage and have almost no penalty for it, probably so they can sell more clan 2 packs.

Oh yeah and please stop hyperboling to try and make a point, there's hardly anyone asking for ST instant death but some actual penalty that have an actual effect should happen.

Edited by Torgun, 01 October 2014 - 02:39 AM.

[1453 R]

Torgun, on 01 October 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

Wait and see is something you do when you're not sure what a change will lead to. This change is obviously going to have close to no impact, it's almost not changing anything at all. So there is nothing at all to wait and see since the result is already obvious. The devs have just decided they want clan mechs to keep tanking more damage and have almost no penalty for it, probably so they can sell more clan 2 packs.

Oh yeah and please stop hyperboling to try and make a point, there's hardly anyone asking for ST instant death but some actual penalty that have an actual effect should happen.

And how do you know that the heat penalty, combined with the monstrous quirk overhaul the IS side is about to be getting, won't result in near parity, hmm? Are you...

...are you from the future? o_o...

If not, KNOCK IT OFF. Crippling/killing any Clan 'Mech that loses a shoulder specifically and solely because the Timber Wolf bothers you is a douchey move. It's hard enough to play most of the second-rung Clan 'Mechs as it is these days. Again, have you ever been faced with a Cute Fox, Badder, Nopeva, Suckoner, or Peacedove which has instilled in you that unholy, atavistic primal terror the Spheroid sides claim to hold for Clan technology? Do you anticipate having any trouble with Missed Lynxes, Nice Hamsters, or Man O'verboards? Even the Lolbringer is only a threat because of the Magic Jesus Box; without MJB, it'd be passable due to its almost Timberwolf-ish mass profusion of hardpoints but its lack of both endo and ferro, as well as its hopeless stock armor, would still pigmonkey bumharm any prospective Lolbringer builds.

Most of these things need CXL durability, as well as any other boost they can get, to make up for their hardlocked deficiencies. This is a trade any Clan pilot worth his salt is willing to take because it's a big part of what makes the tech base interesting and different and fun to play. My Badders are actually among my favorite machines of the Invasion 1 pack despite the chassis being quite solidly Tier 4 simply because they're fun to pilot, and because they remind me of the time and effort I put into making slow Ravens halfway work. A heavily-armed, low-speed gunboat light has no business in MechWarrior Online - which only makes it all the sweeter when I pull off those 600 damage games in my Badders.

Be awfully hard to do that if losing a side torso blew up the 'Mech because IS pilots are bumharmed over the Clans having any actual discernable advantage whatsoever, rather than being strictly worse in any/every given category chassis-wise to make up for all our OH SO OHH-PEE weapons. Like, y'know...those burst-firing autocannons that miss half their damage and spread the other half all over the place. Or those Streak SRM launchers with 6s cycle times. Or...

...yeah. So. Knock it off and wait for the quirk pass already.

[Mercules]

ManDaisy, on 30 September 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

1453, you seems to misunderstand that any clan XL engine mech with 2 engine hits SHOULD BE rightfully half dead. After all you are missing HALF YOU MECH and more then HALF YOUR ENGINE.

10 crit spots, 2 damaged..... 1/5th of the engine?

ManDaisy, on 30 September 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

You want to claim that having a clan XL engine is a disadvantage? Not when they weigh a fraction of Standard engines and dont DIE immediately like IS XL engines!

Having a Clan XL engine IS a disadvantage, the biggest one is that they CAN'T BE ALTERED. You can't swap them out for a bigger or smaller engine. If you are at a 270 you can't swap up to a 275 and put an extra heat sink in the engine like you can with an IS mech.

ManDaisy, on 30 September 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

again 20% heat sink loss after losing half your weapons = nothing.

Again... it 20% of Engine HS, you know the ones that are actually doubled. On top of that comes whatever heat sinks were forced into the side torso's because you are locked into certain builds in a way that you are not with IS mechs. It is rarely that you lost 20% of your Heatsinks and 50% or your weapons. It's often more that you just lost 20% of your efficient HS and 40%-50% of non-engine HS.