647 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

The biggest buff I want to see on a mech right now is either "Ear" reinforcement on all Catapults or something to reduce the ease of blowing them off. I'm sure I can think of more later, but this is the main reason I don't run my CPLTs much anymore.

[Chronic Rune]

Did anyone else notice that the Huggin didn't even place?

[ShadowbaneX]

Chronic Rune, on 30 September 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

Did anyone else notice that the Huggin didn't even place?

Try not to think about it.

[Macksheen]

Ilya may also be undervalued.

There are two questions ... for tonnage-limited matches, things like the BJ, etc. are rocking. For 3/3/3/3 matches though, it isn't a question if you hit above your tonnage, but if you hit above everything else in your class.

Decide what you're balancing towards, be transparent and do it. Keep in mind that the weight classes create some oddities ... should a 90 be as good as a 100? Should a 35 be better than a 20? If you're balancing on tonnage or balancing on class you may get different answers.

[Destoroyah]

I'm curious were any of the mechs so bad you would of considered them tier 6, but they were too few so you clumped them in tier 5?

[Sereglach]

Overall, I think the list is pretty spot on. However, being a pretty dedicated light pilot, that's where I'll restrain my specific remarks towards. Maybe this will help shine some light on their logic for making their choices.

Remember, also, that for every variant you're looking at on here, you also need to compare it to their clan counterparts. Although we don't have a clan chassis in every tonnage value, yet, they will be coming. For everyone who thinks some of the mediums we have for the IS should be tier 1 . . . just imagine how they'll match up against a 55 ton clanner, once we get it. I can tell you it won't be pretty, with where things currently sit.

Again, I'm focusing on the lights, because I've mastered nearly every light variant out there (only exception is the Oxide . . . because I just don't have the cash for the luxury purpose and I'm personally not a fan of Jenners), and these were ground out, with extremely little GXP investment . . . because I'm a poor SOB and can't afford GXP for mastering mechs. I'm not saying I'm an end-all-be-all-expert on this, but I think I can see where PGI is coming from on these decisions.

Tier 1: Spot on, period. As much as I love my Firestarters, the Ember is a monster in the typical meta 4 ML & 4 MG build. On the other hand, the JR7-F can bring its greater laser payload to bear at a significantly wider range of firing arcs. This keeps these mechs right on par with each other. My only personal hope is that the Ember might see a quirk to encourage flamer use . . . just because that's what it was meant to carry.

Tier 2: Again, spot on. Of the ECM capable lights, the Raven 3L is king . . . BUT . . . if it is caught by any of the tier 1 mechs (with equal pilots), then it is toast. The JR7-D can make a great striker mech, but to carry the optimal build and put the hardpoints to maximum use, then you're dropping your engine to likely a 280 and/or dropping jump jets, which lessens your mobility. This makes it weaker than the JR7-F or Ember, which have both the firepower and speed.

Tier 3: The other ECM lights are here, as they should be, because they're "average" among the weight class, but give up so much in carrying their ECM and lighter hardpoints that they cannot compete against the mechs in higher tiers. Sure, a "Streakmando" will scare away most lights . . . but the higher tier mechs can still outmaneuver it and sheer its legs off in no-time flat. The remaining "skirmisher" lights on the list (those without ECM) all have drastic limitations that set them behind their other counterparts. The Oxide is limited by ammo, the JR7-K lacks hardpoints, the other Firestarters either have heat problems when fully utilizing their hardpoints (and they have the worst torso/arm mobility of any of the lights), and the Anansi is a jack-of-all-trades, but master of none, which prevents it from shining anywhere in particular. Now . . . the Huginn . . . I noticed it isn't on the list anywhere . . . but I'd probably put it here. It has enough hardpoints to be reasonably potent, but -like the Oxide- it is completely ammunition dependent. I'd say the Oxide and Huginn should be considered right on par with each other.

Tier 4: These three mechs each have something preventing them from being completely "useless", but are still in pretty harsh shape compared to their counterparts. The LCT-3M at least has dual AMS, while the 1E at least carries a hefty energy payload (which sadly causes it horrid heat problems). The RVN 4-X has ballistics, and isn't completely reliant on ammo the way the Huginn is . . . but it lacks the hardpoints to overly shine in any specialty, because you're still giving up space to put on Jump Jets, which means you're giving up ammo, speed, or weapons . . . allowing higher tier mechs to easily tear it to shreds with its slower speed and lack of supporting equipment or specialized firepower.

Tier 5: What can I really say here? Sadly, there's plenty of room to elaborate on why all of these variants are basically junk when compared to their brethren. All of these variants are either token mechs (the CMD-1B "MegaMan" and the SDR-5V "Zombie Spider" builds come to mind), or they're mechs people gruelingly ground through in order to master their other Variants like the SDR-5D, the RVN-3L, or the COM-2D. Were the Spider and Raven heroes out for these mechs, back in the day, then they would have been completely overlooked (some people might have taken a 2X over the 4X) for the purposes of mastering a chassis for anyone who could afford the heroes. Even with the Commando mechs it was a "pick your poison" for mastering the others, if you could afford a Death's Knell.

Anyway, again, I think PGI's decisions on the light varaints are spot on. I look forward to seeing what's going to be done with them. Hopefully this gives some people a little bit of insight over why PGI is making the decisions they're making for tiers.

P.S. PLEASE give the Firestarters -all of them- Flamer Quirks . . . maybe something like ~20% less heat generation with them, PLEASE! They're designed to carry them for crying out loud! It also might give the Flamers a little bit more love until you're able to send them back for reengineering.

[Macksheen]

Terciel1976, on 30 September 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

I haven't read the whole thread, I don't claim that my opinion is the be-all-end-all, but...

They published a tier list*. This means they take seriously that there are better and worse mechs and they're serious about trying to level that out some.

That's AWESOME. (And about friggin' time, but maybe just the heckipoo with IGP).

*I have a couple nit-picks, but it's not insane.

Amen

[Ruccus]

Savage Wolf, on 30 September 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

Yep, Huginn missing. Wonder how they are going to fix it though as the problem is ammo dependancy. Unlimited ammo would be quite a stretch. Energy hardpoints as a quick?

Definately tier 5 though.

Taking a page from the Summoner, they could add a 10% cooldown bonus to the missile hardpoints. If they're adding hardpoints I'd think an ECM hardpoint would immediately put it into at least tier 4, and shouldn't be out of the question since the 3L already has an ECM hardpoint.

The above would be an either/or, not both.

[ShadowbaneX]

Macksheen, on 30 September 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

Ilya may also be undervalued.

All the Caraphracts might be as they're very XL friendly and can all carry a good deal of fire power. Granted, yeah, the 3D is the cream of the crop, but, as you say, the Illya is a murder machine...if it gets a uAC/5 perk or some nature I'm going to be giddy.

The 4X is the Dakka 'Phract, quad AC/2s, quad AC/5s, 2s & ultras, dual 10s, dual LB-10/Xs, & dual Gauss. I ran my 2X with the same weapons loadout as my Victor-9K (ER PPC, LB-10/X, 2 SRM4s, 2 MLs) and the 1X gets the 20 with 4 MLs. Granted, in quite a few of those cases XLs are necessary to make those builds, but, as I said above, the Caraphract is very XL friendly, so it works

[Gorgo7]

Excellent tier list. I am shocked and delighted to see many of my fav's at the bottom. Hopefully massive buffs will finally make me a champ as opposed to a contender!

[Odanan]

Raven 3E and Atlas DDC not tier 1?

[ICEFANG13]

I like the overall list, although I'm sure we can all agree it's not perfect in some way, hopefully the systems will be a little more dynamic and should a mech become too good, or need some more good, it will be changed correctly.

[Nathaniel Kell]

Someone may have asked this already, but any word on where the CN9-AH and AS7-S will fall on the tier list? Guessing it will be just a wait and see type thing, but just curious.

My gut tells me that once they go down this road (with quirks and what not) that if something really needs it attention, it won't take too long to get it. After CW that is.

[braveheart95]

Why are the Vindicators tier four? They're trash, objectively worse than the other mediums by every single measure. The Wolverine 6K is rightly put in tier five and even that's outright better than them. It is immeasurably worse than the 55 tonners it shares tier four with. Before someone says ''BUT I GET 1.1 K/D IN MY VINDICATOR AND DID 300 DAMAGE ONCE'' try to be objective. It's slow, big, fragile, criminally undergunned (they're low slung at that), has a blinding cockpit, poor hitboxes, and was released with no redeeming quirks. It's going to need HUGE bonuses from the upcoming quirks to be relevant because currently it's tier 6.

You are right, I am having a hard time getting 300 damage in my vindis....

[Angel of Annihilation]

Well I can't complain as almost all my favorite and absolute best performing mechs fall into the tier 3 to 5 category so they are apparently all going to get some major buffage. I mean my absolute top performing mech, the one that makes my Timber Wolf and Dire Wolf look bland and pitiful is a Tier 4....WOOT it is going to be totally devastating.

Honestly, I am pretty shocked by what I see up there. Alot of the tier 4 and 5 mechs are some of what I consider the best mechs in the game. Also Victors being back to the mobility they used to have is a huge buff in and of itself so I don't mind at all if they keep it listed as Tier 1 and leave off quirks.

[braveheart95]

Indeed it is....

[OznerpaG]

love the list! all my most played mechs are tier4 or tier5 so i'm happy - assuming the buffs help my playstyle, which they may not

they only mech that might be given a little too much credit is the Jag-A - i piloted it for 250 games as an LRM boat before i finally got a Catapult 6 months later and it doesn't compare since it doesn't have JJ, you have to mount the TAG very low, and you can only fit 1 defensive energy weapon if you have TAG. the rest of the Jags are fine, but the Jag-A should be tier4 or 5 like the Catapult and given non-ballistic related bonuses

Edited by JagdFlanker, 30 September 2014 - 06:14 PM.

[Hoax415]

Xarian, on 30 September 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

[snip]

This is just a great post. +1 vote that you read it Russ. Though there are other great ones on here, Audivo's and JackAttack's both stuck out as being well informed but i forgot to quote them. Hope you see and consider two very good pilot's well reasoned opinions.

TheMagician, on 30 September 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

As soon as you change any variable in the game, the tiers will change. Do you plan to update the quirks at least quarterly to address changes?

While I grimaced because its like you are already complaining I think the more pertinent point is that this quirk pass really shouldn't be done unless we are 90%+ sure that the weapon values are staying as is for a long time.

For instance fixing IS pulse lasers or fixing IS small lasers so they are usable AFTER the quirk pass would be a big mistake because mechs that are ideal for mounting those weapons don't because those weapons suck.

Ditto how a PPC un-nerf of any kind would drastically change things. Or what about AC2's? Right now they are almost unusably bad but if they weren't it would make a big difference to the tier lists.

So I guess if there is any chance we are considering a weapon buff/nerf it really needs to be done before the quirk pass.

Mister Blastman, on 30 September 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

The HGN 733C might need a bump down to Tier 3. It's really bad as of late. The Shadowhawks--particularly the 2K and those two Griffins in Tier 2, they might need a bump to Tier 1. They are solid.

But hey, I don't mind seeing them get buffed, further.

As for the two lights @ tier 1... Well... See, the problem remains with most IS 'mechs--and the reason the tiering is so bad--is that the medium and small lasers were nerfed so long ago by having extra heat added to them plus ghost heat... it really messed over the IS as a whole, bad. Probably the best thing that could be done first off is removing the heat nerfs to these weapons plus removing ghost heat from them. I'd probably start first with removing the heat nerfs...

Here's a post that brings up how weapon nerfs caused so many variants to "go bad". Also I agree that its strange that even the king and queen of Mediums (SHD-2K & SHD-2D2) aren't a tier above the lesser Shawks. I'm fine with zero t1 mediums but I think that too many mediums got crammed into t2 as a result.

Perhaps the medium weight class should have its top performers be t1 but medium t1's still get a little bit of love?

Macksheen, on 30 September 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

Ilya may also be undervalued.

There are two questions ... for tonnage-limited matches, things like the BJ, etc. are rocking. For 3/3/3/3 matches though, it isn't a question if you hit above your tonnage, but if you hit above everything else in your class.

Decide what you're balancing towards, be transparent and do it. Keep in mind that the weight classes create some oddities ... should a 90 be as good as a 100? Should a 35 be better than a 20? If you're balancing on tonnage or balancing on class you may get different answers.

I would very much like to hear Russ' take on this. Are we trying to balance a 80 ton assault with a 100 ton assault thinking of 3/3/3/3 or is this more about when an 80t assault is barely better than a 70t heavy?

Are we balancing by tonnage or weight class? Its a very important distinction and I'd love to hear the answer.

Overall though the tier list looks like some smart and good work was put into it and I don't see any "omfg what is happening" stuff on it. Bravo.

Edited by Hoax415, 30 September 2014 - 06:22 PM.

[Aylek]

Won't chime into the discussion of the Tiers, as there must at least half as much different opinions about this as there are active players out there. I'd rather give some general suggestions:

- VTR's should be given back their original agility. This has the chance to somehow make them a counter for TBRs (at least when not strictly thinking in weight classes).

- Dragon - Fang: let him use an AC 20 or dual UAC5. This would make him unique enough in comparison to non-MC variants that buying him would actually make sense.

Edited by Aylek, 30 September 2014 - 06:21 PM.

[YoungTerror]

Sorry if this was asked in an earlier post but, what about the Oxide negative quirks? Will those get flushed too, especially in light of the JR7-F being tier 1?