647 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Alright... finally put my tier list together:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3776700

I'm amendable to adjusting it, but most of it is based on my usage of the mechs, and seeing them used in combat... if they even show up on the field (and many of them are underrated, but they look bad compared to something better of course).

[Risen]

Nice little list you created there PGI, now please explain which criteria you used to make it.

And alot of mechs er set into tiers because of their good or bad geometry.
Will you change this before giving them none or alot of quirks?

For instance the Jenner F is in Tier1 because you ran effectively run it with 160 points of armor since it only gets hit in the front CT anyway. The freed tonnage can be distributed to heat sinks.

[Voyager I]

YueFei, on 30 September 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

I don't think HBK-4SP should be Tier 4. It's not the best mech in the game or even in the weight class, but I tend to think it's more toward the middle of the pack, not the bottom of the barrel. Should be Tier3.

The 4SP is the best of the Hunchbacks in that it doesn't have an obvious "Neuter Me!" sign making it outright unusable against decent players, but it's still a step down from better mediums. It has no exceptional qualities and a big fat barrel chest that soaks up incoming fire.

Also remember that mediums struggle in general, which is why even the best of them are only ranked in T2. The 4SP may be in the middle of the pack compared to its peers but in the overall game that leaves it being underwhelming.



I will chime in, as well, that it's really important to distinguish whether we're balancing by weight class or by actual weight. 15 ton weight differentials are a potentially huge deal, especially at the lighter end of the spectrum where everyone is running 150 kph and the jump from a Locust to a Jenner represents a 75% weight increase. How are they ever meant to compete directly on a slot-for-slot basis?

Edited by Voyager I, 01 October 2014 - 12:17 AM.

[Runs With Scissors]

only a few quibbles with the list

1) Every Locust and Commando should be tier 5. They are that bad. Its a leg armor issue (and armor in general) its too easy to take one out no matter their hardpoints. Even the COM 2D with ECM isn't that good. 3 of its 4 hardpoints are missile and require ammo, it dosent have the tonnage for large SRMs (SRM 4) or the Beagle streaks basically require

2) All Dragons and Quickdraws should be rock bottom also. Its a hitbox issue. The Dragon has a giant CT, they should all be tier 5 except the Flame and the 1C. (tier 4 cause of better hardpoints) The Quickdraw suffers from being a gigantic mech in general, with poor hitboxes and tendency to lose legs easily too. None of them have a real advantage in hardpoints and should all be moved to tier 5

3) The Victor 9K cant mount an AC20 and dosent have multiple ballistics like the others. with the gauss nerf the lack of boom or dakka really hurts it and it should be moved down (I think tier 3)

other than those it looks good to me. Looking forward to dusting off some old mechs.

[Vassago Rain]

YueFei, on 30 September 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

I don't think HBK-4SP should be Tier 4. It's not the best mech in the game or even in the weight class, but I tend to think it's more toward the middle of the pack, not the bottom of the barrel. Should be Tier3.

4SP is a dinosaur. It doesn't even have jumpjets.

Again, MWO in 2014 isn't MWO of 2012.

[YueFei]

Voyager I, on 01 October 2014 - 12:13 AM, said:

The 4SP is the best of the Hunchbacks in that it doesn't have an obvious "Neuter Me!" sign making it outright unusable against decent players, but it's still a step down from better mediums. It has no exceptional qualities and a big fat barrel chest that soaks up incoming fire.

The 4SP's shoulders are good at soaking fire, protecting the CT, so the mech is fairly tough for its weight. But the toothpick-thin arms are almost impossible to use to absorb fire. That's really the most glaring thing about it.

Quote

Also remember that mediums struggle in general, which is why even the best of them are only ranked in T2. The 4SP may be in the middle of the pack compared to its peers but in the overall game that leaves it being underwhelming.

Well Tier3 Mediums include Cicadas (including a non-ECM variant), and I tend to think the 4SP is on-par with the Cicadas, which is why I feel it should be Tier3 on that list.

If the HBK's hitboxes were adjusted so that the arms could soak damage reliably, they'd be alot better. Who wouldn't want to add 48 hitpoints to their shoulders?

Vassago Rain, on 01 October 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

4SP is a dinosaur. It doesn't even have jumpjets.

Again, MWO in 2014 isn't MWO of 2012.

I never said it was Tier1 or Tier2. But really? It's worse than a non-ECM Cicada of all things?

[AlphaStruck]

Jester requires a level 5 boost. This is a must. A lot of the problem revovles around the 4x3 rule breaking the balancing of of most matches. Right now most mechs at the low end of the weight class basically handicap you team for no other reason than they have a heavy or assault sticker on them even though they arnt a "true" heavy/assault.

The Jester loses your team 10 tons.

The recent JJ nerf destroyed any ability it had to engage inside 500m due to no maneuverability, no armor, lack of speed for the giant target it is, giant side torsos combined with XL engine to reach max chassis speed and still keep any kind of punch.

The dual AMS (its only real "advantage") is useless against the new superspeed fast cooldown LRM's. Clan LRMs weigh half as much so a lrm 30-40 is guaranteed (the 22-32 that bypass it is enough to kill with the lack of armor. The IS AMS ammo weighs 2x as much as clan.... meaning you have to give up 4 tons on a 65ton chassis to have it last most of the match. The AMS choosing not to go off or shoot behind you ignoring missles that will cause you damage at random doesnt help

The 6 energy slots(!) with the new useless IS PPCs is way undergunned. With PPC or LGPLS you have to engage inside the 400m range which is followed by dying from 1-2 clan alphas. 1 from any direwolf not boating LRMs.

End of the day... choosing a Jester is screwing your teammates by eating up a timberwolf slot. Thats all a heavy slot is.

Before the giant beta style changes to the game when I bought it I could use skill and luck to make it a fun useful ride teammates didnt hate me for running. It just got caught by every nerf and mechanic change and just beat to death mostly because its got that stupid heavy sticker on it and 4x3 breaks it. Another Hero that got slammed after purchase.

Adding AIRBURST ammo to the AMS making it 2x effective verses LRMs could be a start. This should be a module skill or cbill upgrade for all mechs that comes with reduced ammo... maybe FRAG AMS ammo or rapid targeting cpu to up SRM defense x4/5. Removing the ridiculous torso raise/lower nerf. Take it out of the heavy catagory for JJ's down to medium. Add xp and cbill rewards for AMS ammo used(small but something). Just plain add energy slots or cooling.

I loved my Jester, please give it a chance.

P.S. Thx to Vassago Rain for pointing out the 5t error... changes nothing i said but still needed fixin.

Edited by AlphaStruck, 01 October 2014 - 05:12 PM.

[Mycrus]

Nice all my favorites are low tier mechs

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Some feedback:
Jenner-F is equal to the Jenner-D. Its just different usage, but the D is better for hit&run and can fight other lights (due to the broken laser-mechanic on top of it) while the F is good at backstabbing enemies with a single shot to take out a side torso.

Firestarter-Ember is nearly as good as the Firestarter-H. The Ember got a little more crit potential on open mechs, but its hardly something to open a gap of two tiers. Also the H can be played like the Jenner-F. Just press the Arms-lock button if you are unsure and have all the Lasers hit one spot PLUS using that enhanced damage of the 6 lasers to crit what you just shot open and to cool down. No, the H is mighty, it just does not have the 30% C-Bill bonus.

The Raven 3-L is not a Tier 2, but a Tier 3 mech. It does not profit from broken hitboxes lioke the Firestarter or the Spider, has huge legs and not a single Jump Jet. It is only used because of its ECM and having 2 Laser hardpoints in order to equip 2x ER-LL. Variants with SRMs (which tries to bring the Raven in the same battleground as the Jenner, the Firestarter and even the Spider) lack severely behind, because of the missing Jump Jets. The 2xER-LL Raven was invented, *because* there is no other role left for the Raven.

Spider 5D is Tier 2 instead of Tier 3. One of the most used mechs around, because of ECM, Jump-Jets, broken Hitboxes and still enough firepower to open the back of someones rear.

Mediums:
I guess all mechs that have 55-tons have an advantage over the non-55 tons. So the Wolverine 7k in def. better than a hunchback 4P, just because of its ability to mount Jump-Jets and having a balanced loadout of energy and missile weapons. Wolverine is Tier 3-4, while hunchie goes down to Tier 4-5

Heavies:
You know... well, the CTF 3D might be a nice mech, but only because it can mount JJ, which is a direct trade-off for firepower compared to the Ilya. Both Ilya and 3-D are Tier 2, because of the big CT of that mech and normally, the Ilya is equipped with an XL-engine, making it even more fragile, but on the other hand having a higher firepower. As most people do the 3D as Jumpsniper with some kind of Gauss/PPC/AC5 combo, other combinations have never been considered as valid, like Ultra-Autocannons for a mini-Ilya or an AC/20 and 4 Medlaser as a Brawler... yes, those builds are somewhat inferior to the other ones, but the 3D is not really Tier 1, if the Ilya is Tier 3. I'd say, both are Tier 2.

The Jagermechs can nearly all be drives as some sort of Dual/AC-20 or Dual Gauss boat. No real difference in the meta and between the Chassis. They are all Tier 2 to be honest.

Assault:
Never saw a Victor these days. Jumpsniping is out of the house and with this, nobody really tries to fly a Brawler-Victor around, as this mech is just to fragile on the frontlines and too slow to do the flanking job. You can build in an XL into that thing, but that is similar "good" as building an XL into an Atlas. I play brawlers nearly all the time and I do more damage in a brawl Thunderbolt than in a brawl Victor - maybe because I just hate that chassis. Can't really tell, but the Victor never appeared to me as a good mech in the first place. Too big for the swift things, too slow for the fast things, too little armor for the brutal things. It found its niche in times of Jumpsniping - buit as they are over, you do not see Victors in a 12 vs. 12 these days at all. I'd say, that thing is a Tier 2 mech - at best (but thats my personal bias)

Highlander has the same problems. Not usable with the current nerfs. Cannot use jump jets, which weight 2 tons each and if, its just hovering, too sloppy, too slow, inferior to any Atlas. Tier 4 if you ask me.

Banshee 3E is Tier 2, the 3S is Tier 4 and the 3M is Tier 5. While there is a single loadout on the 3S I can drive in Pug-matches, I'd never take it into a 12-men match, and the 3M cannot be run cool if you use every energy slot. It would need the same quirk as the Awesome to be even halfway valid, but then also the 3S would need some of that as well as the 3-E to bake it balanced again.

Stalker:
Well, you cannot tank with the arms and even the ones with a better torso twist are still easy to get in the side and CT. Just because most people use LRMs on that thing, does not mean its a successful chassis when using other weapon systems. That thing is hot a hell and for the many weapon systems it carries, it would also need a heat reduction.

In general all assaults need that, because they do not have the slots to mount even remotely enough DHS to cool all the weapons they carry. In my honest opinion, there is not a single Tier 1 assault, just because all of them run hot or extremely hot. That being said, if you condense your table and take away Tier 1, it looks just about right. The Awesome would need the following fix: Increase the engine rating of all Awesome battlemechs to at Least a Std 325. This will help the mech more than any Quirk.

Edit:
Also, if you enable too powerful Quirks (like the MASSIVE heat reduction on the Awesome) you would need to do that for all chassis and play around in the 5% margin, or you run the risk of swapping a Tier 1 with a Tier 5 mech. (Which you guessed it: Is not a solution but the creation of another problem... again) The differences right now are mostly based on hardpoints available and tonnage which invokes size and speed/agility. If you want to change something, then what about this:

Give mechs additional heat dissipation depending on their tonnage. You can do that with the reactor '(free heat sinks for a certain rating + the ones in the engine) or the chassis itself (huge mechs have a larger area to dissipate naturally) or something else. The heat efficiency of Lights and Mediums are just about right, the Heavies start to have problems and the assaults cannot compensate anymore. In my point of view, this screams for a non-linear adaption.
On top of that, you could also give the assaults a slight armor increase. They are bigger and slower and the mere armor increase by their tonnage does not outbalance it. So I suggest (again)
20- tons = 2.0x modifier of the TT armor rating
100 Tons = 2.5x armor rating of the TT rules

Everything in a linear way. These changes are still slight and count for every mech, instead of giving every mech a hardcoded Quirk. I'd say, you take a global adaption (like my suggestion) and then decide on what imbalance is left to give chassis a *slight* Quirk.

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 01 October 2014 - 12:47 AM.

[Kamies]

They think BLR-1D is a Tier 4 mech.



I'm gonna wreck you all with my favourite mech.

[Voyager I]

YueFei, on 01 October 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

The 4SP's shoulders are good at soaking fire, protecting the CT, so the mech is fairly tough for its weight. But the toothpick-thin arms are almost impossible to use to absorb fire. That's really the most glaring thing about it.

Soaking up damage with the side torsos that carry all your guns is a lot worse than taking hits with your sponge arms that exist purely to eat bullets, and the even distribution of its hardpoints means that it doesn't have any extra body parts that it can ablate. It doesn't belong on the same tier as something like a CN9-A that can punch harder and soak up dramatically more fire before it starts losing weapons.

When engine restrictions were first added and every other Hunchback became a walking bullet magnet while Centurions still had the stupid missile doors that made them unusable as SRM brawlers and there weren't any other mediums, the 4SP was the best medium mech in the game. That was a long time ago.

[Vassago Rain]

AlphaStruck, on 01 October 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:

Jester requires a level 5 boost. This is a must. A lot of the problem revovles around the 4x3 rule breaking the balancing of of most matches. Right now most mechs at the low end of the weight class basically handicap you team for no other reason than they have a heavy or assault sticker on them even though they arnt a "true" heavy/assault.

The Jester loses your team 15 tons.

The recent JJ nerf destroyed any ability it had to engage inside 500m due to no maneuverability, no armor, lack of speed for the giant target it is, giant side torsos combined with XL engine to reach max chassis speed and still keep any kind of punch.

The dual AMS (its only real "advantage") is useless against the new superspeed fast cooldown LRM's. Clan LRMs weigh half as much so a lrm 30-40 is guaranteed (the 22-32 that bypass it is enough to kill with the lack of armor. The IS AMS ammo weighs 2x as much as clan.... meaning you have to give up 4 tons on a 60ton chassis to have it last most of the match. The AMS choosing not to go off or shoot behind you ignoring missles that will cause you damage at random doesnt help

The 6 energy slots(!) with the new useless IS PPCs is way undergunned. With PPC or LGPLS you have to engage inside the 400m range which is followed by dying from 1-2 clan alphas. 1 from any direwolf not boating LRMs.

End of the day... choosing a Jester is screwing your teammates by eating up a timberwolf slot. Thats all a heavy slot is.

Before the giant beta style changes to the game when I bought it I could use skill and luck to make it a fun useful ride teammates didnt hate me for running. It just got caught by every nerf and mechanic change and just beat to death mostly because its got that stupid heavy sticker on it and 4x3 breaks it. Another Hero that got slammed after purchase.

Adding AIRBURST ammo to the AMS making it 2x effective verses LRMs could be a start. This should be a module skill or cbill upgrade for all mechs that comes with reduced ammo... maybe FRAG AMS ammo or rapid targeting cpu to up SRM defense x4/5. Removing the ridiculous torso raise/lower nerf. Take it out of the heavy catagory for JJ's down to medium. Add xp and cbill rewards for AMS ammo used(small but something). Just plain add energy slots or cooling.

I loved my Jester, please give it a chance.

The jester is 65 tons, bro, not 60.

Voyager I, on 01 October 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

Soaking up damage with the side torsos that carry all your guns is a lot worse than taking hits with your sponge arms that exist purely to eat bullets, and the even distribution of its hardpoints means that it doesn't have any extra body parts that it can ablate. It doesn't belong on the same tier as something like a CN9-A that can punch harder and soak up dramatically more fire before it starts losing weapons.

When engine restrictions were first added and every other Hunchback became a walking bullet magnet while Centurions still had the stupid missile doors that made them unusable as SRM brawlers and there weren't any other mediums, the 4SP was the best medium mech in the game. That was a long time ago.

I seem to recall making a post a page ago about how CERTAIN POSTERS are still unaware it's not closed beta...

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 30 September 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

Alright... finally put my tier list together:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3776700

I'm amendable to adjusting it, but most of it is based on my usage of the mechs, and seeing them used in combat... if they even show up on the field (and many of them are underrated, but they look bad compared to something better of course).

When you have the chance, it would be an easier read if you put it into a spreadsheet and then either posted a link or posted an image of the spreadsheet.

[Aaren Kai]

I am no sure what qualifies the Jenner F to be a tier 1 mech but I think it equal to the D and perhaps a tier 2.

• I think the damage potential is the same but just comes from different styles. So weapon wise equal.
  
• The model itself has issues where the CT is just a damage magnet. I would bet if you look at how the mech is destroyed that the majority of critical failures is loss of CT. Yes, this is a small plus in the XL engine debate, but compared to a Spider or Ember the survival rate is horrific. (If you adjust the hit boxes a bit this point can be removed)
  
• Number of Modules - Needs more as modules become better, lack of them reduces it a tier in my opinion
  
• ECM - If ECM stays the same, All ECM mechs should get bumped up. That magic box is a game changer and the Jenner gets no variant - Give the K variant ECM
  
• The Jenner F is only high tier after you spend the equivalent of an assault mech to upgrade it. A default Jenner F is NOT tier one. It has the potential to be high IF you trick it out. No ideas on how to fix, just stating experience with it.

I guess that I think the F should come down one notch compared to other IS lights. Yes it is a good mech, but the survivability due to the model/hit boxes takes away a lot. It CAN carry a good deal of weapons, but it can be matched by lower tier mechs in weapons that have a better survivability model. NO ECM.

This isn't a carry over to the 3 second days is it? The heat scale (nerf), the jumpjets (nerf), better hit detection, the high alpha arms escalation... these are not the lights of closed beta days. If you haven't played them recently I suggest you try them again and see what the culmination of all these changes have done.

[xengk]

Kamies, on 01 October 2014 - 12:32 AM, said:

They think BLR-1D is a Tier 4 mech.



I'm gonna wreck you all with my favourite mech.

feels good in my Tier 5 mech

[Voyager I]

While I'm hating on Hunchbacks, I'd argue that the 4P doesn't belong at T3 either. That hunch has been a huge liability ever since the netcode improvements made precise targeting more reliable, and now the 4P is just another HBK that's one or two good hits away from impotence. That bullseye is too big to hide through simple torso twisting, and a 50 tonner with a 260 engine cap and bad hitboxes is neither tough enough to take hits where it counts nor fast enough to avoid getting shot at.

[Temptis]

the thing is, IS Chassis viability is based on several criteria:
- hitboxes/geometry
- max engine size
- current weapon balance

while i totaly trust you to consider the first 2, i still have several gripes with the 3rd.
one thing in particular:
the bread and butter weapon of Battletech is the Medium Laser
ML:
Sarna: 5 damage 2 heat 9 hexes
MWO: 5 damage 4 heat 540m
cERML
Sarna: 7 damage 5 heat 15 hexes
MWO: 7 damage 6 heat 800m

i don't think it's to much to ask, to bring the IS Laser heat values back in line, no need to further Clan nerfs, just undo the IS nerfs of the past to some extend.
THAN and only than it makes sense to categorise IS Chassis.

Edited by Temptis, 01 October 2014 - 01:58 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Temptis, on 01 October 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

one thing in particular:
the bread and butter weapon of Battletech is the Medium Laser
ML:
Sarna: 5 damage 2 heat 9 hexes

3 heat.

[Black Ivan]

IMO the Boar's Head needs to be a higher Tier.

[Savage Wolf]

Ruccus, on 30 September 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Taking a page from the Summoner, they could add a 10% cooldown bonus to the missile hardpoints. If they're adding hardpoints I'd think an ECM hardpoint would immediately put it into at least tier 4, and shouldn't be out of the question since the 3L already has an ECM hardpoint.

The above would be an either/or, not both.

A 10% cooldown reduction to missiles would just make it run out of ammo faster and then potentially make it even worse. And yes, either giving it energy hardpoints or unlimited ammo would fix this problem, both is overkill. ECM could help, but it would still run out of ammo.