647 replies to this topic

[Molossian Dog]

1.) Quirks are -in general- a good idea.
2.) That IS Mechs absolutely -need- quirks is sad. It means you boinked up majorly.
(hardponits, heat capacity, TTK, FLD, PP, scaling, animations, clammers in general)
3.) That the majority of IS Mechs are in Tier 3-5 is underlining how boinked up balance is at this stage.
4.) Quirks alone won´t do it.

5.) Telling us which mechs you want to buff but not telling us what kind of buffs we are talking makes giving feedback somewhat of a moot exercise.

Example: Is re-scaling even on the table? If not, forget the Trebs.

Alternatively: When you die in a Treb, a Commando jumps out of a hatch in its torso and you get to pilot that.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 01 October 2014 - 02:59 PM.

[That Guy]

i hope there is more to the quirk pass than just a few weapon or heat changes. i would really like to see some sensor system quirks.

we have just gotten so use to all mechs being equal in sensor systems. this is really a golden opportunity for role diversification, and maybe even letting "scouting" be an actual viable role for a light mech (and rushing forward at the start of a game into the middle of the enemy blob and locking 1 or 2 before dying is not "scouting")

some things to consider

• 
  range increases and decreases
  
• 
  lock on time increase/ decrease
  
• 
  time to detect (a weak sensor takes a second or two to recognize a new target. also applicable to make certain mechs take longer to detect, or affect their sensor "hitbox")(it honestly bugs me that an atlas running at top speed alpha striking in the middle of an open field is just as detectable as a little locust barley peeking over a ridge at any range)
  
• 
  giving some mechs advanced sensor module quirks, such as seismic, 360 retention, 360 detection, or multi-tracking (similar to how UAVs work. they mentioned they wanted to do this way back when)
  
• 
  give some mech organic CECM, or natural resistance to ECM, wile others are more vulnerable to it ect

additionally (though i may have read this wrong) i think its insane that they are not going to be giving out any negative quirks. that help define a mech just as much as a positive quirk. give some and take some, it helps to give a machine its own individual character.


For example, lets compare the locust to the jenner. Currently the jenner can just plain do everything better than a locust. There is no reason to take a locust beyond the “LULZ”. Additionally under the current quirks that we know about, all effect weapon and mech performance. This just means that the locust is still going to be subpar to the jenner, just slightly better than it was before. However with sensor quirks we can turn the locust into a great scout with a longer senor range, multi-tracking, and some sort of “stealth” bonus. The jenner on the other-hand can still be the superior fighter, but to compensate it has a weaker sensor systems, and less utility as a scout or spotter

but I am not going to hold my breath for this sort of sensor based quirks just yet, as it does seem like quite a bit of work.

Edited by That Guy, 01 October 2014 - 02:57 PM.

[Amuro Kerensky]

Iqfish, on 01 October 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Please be very careful with this Tiersystem, but I really really like the Idea of classifying Mechs in MWO not just in L/M/H/A.

These tiers are being used solely for determining what kind/how many quirks a mech receives to boost its performance, not for matchmaking.

[Wolfways]

Jagermech is tier 3?

lol i can't wait to get buffs on my already OP JM6-S

[Glythe]

Khobai, on 01 October 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

This. Locusts and Commandos should all be Tier 5. Except for the Commando 2D which is Tier 4.

The reason why I put the Commando 2D at Tier 4 is the SSRM2 damage nerf. Going from 2.5 to 2 damage per missile completely nerfed the Commando 2D's ability to do any respectable damage.

QFT


The other old build for the Commando was a single large laser or ERLL. You can't play the speed/range game anymore because clan mechs are fast and have long range weapons.

[Blacke]

Metus regem, on 30 September 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

Well that's neat, can we see the Clan tier list too?

Timberwolf is tier 0.5

[shintakie]

Not sure whats up with the people saying that the Cicada 3M should be a Tier 2 mech. The only saving grace of the 3M is that it has ECM. That's the only thing the 3M has over the other Cicada variants (disregardin my beloved 3C).

Also, maybe I'm just weird, but I'm interested in figurin out how the 2A is ranked higher than the 2B. They're the exact same mech except one has 4 torso energy hard points and the other has 4 arm energy hard points. Personally I find the arm mounted ones more useful, but maybe that's just me.

I'm honestly not sure what quirks you can give a lot of those Tier 5 mechs to make them not a giant pile of turds.

The 3C is absolutely top 5 worst mech in the game. If the Locust didn't exist at all it'd easily be the worst mech in the game. As is its contendin with a 20 ton mech with 4 ballistic hard points and a 20 ton mech with 4 missile hard points. That being said, the Locust is extraordinarily tiny compared to the Cicada, so that has to count for somethin at least.

There isn't a perk imaginable that isn't somethin ridiculous like "This mech takes less damage" or "Machine guns on this mech do extra damage!" that would make the 3C/1V not terrible mechs. The only thing that'd make them not terrible mechs would be an absurd buff to machine guns and they'd STILL be the worst mechs with ballistics because other much better mechs would be able to fit real weapons on top of their absurdly buffed machine guns.

Edit - That being said, I love all my Cicadas and my 3C is still my baby. Regardless of how useless it is I'll still keep runnin that and waitin for another buff to my MG's

Edited by shintakie, 01 October 2014 - 05:47 PM.

[DarthPeanut]

Wolfways, on 01 October 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

Jagermech is tier 3?

lol i can't wait to get buffs on my already OP JM6-S

Already OP JM6-S huh. Cannot tell if you are being serious.

If so you need to lay off the drugs.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 01 October 2014 - 06:28 PM.

[PraetorGix]

Ronan, on 30 September 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

All the mechs I like to run are Tier4 or 5... might explain some things...

LOL I was thinking more or less the same...

[Jeb]

The list seems mostly decent... I think a few are odd choices though...


I would think with the current ECM mechanics, any light or medium with ECM would fall under Tier1 or Tier2?
*If ECM is ever changed, I would suggest all ECM mechs will need to be looked at to see how much they are effected...

I think the Oxide should be moved to Tier4... it's really not a very good "hero" and it's one of the few hero mechs I regret buying... (Grid Iron is another one, but you have it ranked right )


The Jester should be T4... it's limited to two Jump Jets so it's never going to be a great jumping mech with the current Jump Jet rules (or the upcoming changes) and it's all energy meaning it runs hot... it just does not stack up with the JM6s or CTFs...


The HGNs in T3 really should be T4 I think as well...

Edited by Jeb, 01 October 2014 - 08:29 PM.

[Rovertoo]

shintakie, on 01 October 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Not sure whats up with the people saying that the Cicada 3M should be a Tier 2 mech. The only saving grace of the 3M is that it has ECM. That's the only thing the 3M has over the other Cicada variants (disregardin my beloved 3C).

Also, maybe I'm just weird, but I'm interested in figurin out how the 2A is ranked higher than the 2B. They're the exact same mech except one has 4 torso energy hard points and the other has 4 arm energy hard points. Personally I find the arm mounted ones more useful, but maybe that's just me.

I'm honestly not sure what quirks you can give a lot of those Tier 5 mechs to make them not a giant pile of turds.

The 3C is absolutely top 5 worst mech in the game. If the Locust didn't exist at all it'd easily be the worst mech in the game. As is its contendin with a 20 ton mech with 4 ballistic hard points and a 20 ton mech with 4 missile hard points. That being said, the Locust is extraordinarily tiny compared to the Cicada, so that has to count for somethin at least.

There isn't a perk imaginable that isn't somethin ridiculous like "This mech takes less damage" or "Machine guns on this mech do extra damage!" that would make the 3C/1V not terrible mechs. The only thing that'd make them not terrible mechs would be an absurd buff to machine guns and they'd STILL be the worst mechs with ballistics because other much better mechs would be able to fit real weapons on top of their absurdly buffed machine guns.

Edit - That being said, I love all my Cicadas and my 3C is still my baby. Regardless of how useless it is I'll still keep runnin that and waitin for another buff to my MG's

They could do lots of little things though. Maybe let MGs have a faster fire rate, buff it's acceleration/deceleration a bunch, defense buff to it's little wing arms (like missle doors kinda), etc.

[Frozen Spirit Jac]

One of the main reasons I stop playing with my IS Mechs is the fact that you guys are constantly making changes to them through items or modules weapons or the size of critical. It's getting beyond the joke. I will have a mech setup a specific way then once again it becomes useless. Because someone wanted to change the range or heator whatever.
You should focus on bringing community warfare, fixing bugs like screen freezes on new map, new mechs, more maps and the such.

[JayKay17]

Many mechs need urgently some attention so as sombody said on point quirk away.
But keep in mind that the momentary grouping in tiers is also a result of the L/M/H/A 3/3/3/3 mechanic. It shouldn't be a surprise that a 40 ton Mechs doesn't perform like a 55 ton Mech, but both must fulfill the same duty with the implemented system.
So if you quirk the Blackjack to be more competitive with a Shadowhawk, don't forget that if you ever change to another mechanic than 3/3/3/3 (maybe tonage based) the Blackjack will suddenly outperfom the Shadowhawk. Because than you will get much more firepower for your tonnage in the BJ than in your SHD.

[Sandslice]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 30 September 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

Just some curiosities. (And no, you won't get much if any nerf bat avoidance from me.) I'm assuming that your numbers are based on sample data for Inner Sphere 'Mech choices during a certain time frame.

1. Are you filtering for Trials?
It surprises me a bit, for example, to see CTF-3D as top tier (above Firebrand and Ilya, no less,) or JR7-F above RVN-3L; and the variable that seems to account for both apparent anomalies is trial options. This potentially skews the data since not every chassis (let alone variant, and the Tier List is by variant) offers a trial.

2. Where is Huginn?
RVN-H is Sir Not Appearing On This List, and it makes Odin sad. (Answered by Russ in the other thread, in a way that is sure to please Odin: Huginn is bottom tier.)

3. Is it the case...
...that the tier list was created without respect to weight classes, and then sorted by weight class for our viewing pleasure? Just looking to solve the apparent anomaly of having no Mediums at the top-tier.

4. About those Vindicators...
Is the fact that they're new (only 5 weeks) at a time when Clantech is available to the free-playing masses and the Mediums are generally well-established (relatively speaking... they are Mediums, after all) affecting Vindicator rep significantly? (I agree with the placement; this is for the sake of an honest question.)

5. Too many Griffins!
The -1N and -3M are obviously right; but you have three others, "GRF-S" in third tier, and -1S and -1E in fourth. Sparky (the hero) is GRF-1E; so what is GRF-S?

Also, if GRF-S is also intended to be Sparky, is Sparky third or fourth tier?

----

Now, specifics.

Lights
RVN-3L and SDR-5D. If Ember and Jenner-F are top-tier (and the latter probably due to Trials,) it's curious that the ECM Raven and Spider aren't one tier higher than they are. HOWEVER, if ECM changes are on the table, then they might even drop in tier by themselves as a result of those.
JR7-K: I don't have a -K, so I will protest how high this Jenner is: it's still 120% redundant of the JR7-D, having one fewer CT M point with no compensation. This is a problem that has existed since the module system revamp and still persists. As such, it should be at least one tier lower so that it can be considered for quirk buffs to compensate. (This is the approach being used for the Stalkers.) Alternatively, the old request for an extra 'Mech module slot remains, as this was the K's original advantage over the D.

Mediums
GRF-1N: I promised I'd be a good pilot and not ask to avoid the nerf bat; but I think the global Jump Jet buff will compensate enough.
CDA-3C: On the other hand, my purple-and-white "Double Goose" (dunno why I call it that; Double Goose is normally what I call two-gauss platforms) is more than happy to be a bottom feeder.

Heavies
CTF-3D: Again, surprised by this one being top tier - probably due to the Trial effect. I'd consider dropping this one to second, and also promoting Ilya Muromets. I could be wrong, but this would seem to better reflect the actual relationship between these two Cataphracts, and with Firebrand in addition.

Assaults
Stalkers: The fourth-tier status of the -3H / -4N / -5S is fine; it should give them some quirk buffs against their hardpoint weakness. (This is, in fact, the same idea I have for the Jenner K.)
HGN-733c: This feels like another case of Trial effect, and that it should actually be third tier with the other Highlanders.
Non-8R Awesomes: Tasty.

Edited by Sandslice, 01 October 2014 - 10:08 PM.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Vassago Rain, on 30 September 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

As expected, a lot of people in here are operating as if it's still 2012.

No, the hunchback 4P isn't a magical scalpel. It has no range, and gets the shoulder blown apart by every half-way decent robot on the field in very quick order.
No, ECM isn't godtier omega levels of mandatory, because there's about 10 counters to it, and outside the DDC, all current ECM carriers are underarmed.
No, your 2012 hillhumping isn't comparable to madcats doing KOF-styled short hops and blowing robots up in seconds.

The fact that we're all posting in a thread about how most IS mechs are worthless would hopefully give pause to the more ridiculous claims.

hunchbacks are still good, think of them like drones deployed by assaults to augment their damage. They're also quite good in city settings and around right corners.

but in any sort of direct confrontation with clan mechs? if you have good aim you have a chance, but if they have good aim you're ******. Anybody who isn't a ****** should be able to make at minimum 400 damage a game in a hunchback unless they're having one of those bad luck streaks that show up like a bout of diarrhea.

ultimately the game is a damage hitpoints model. whomever can get damage out quicker before they lose their hitpoints wins, so clan mechs win more often due to being able to fit more weapons or more effective weapons. look at the dragon for ***** sakes. I can definitely build an effective dragon but in relation to other options it would still be complete garbage.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 01 October 2014 - 11:21 PM.

[ItchyTriggerFingers]

Awesomes in teir5...? Too high. Move one down.

I also disagree with the HGN's in teir3 for all the reasons stated in post #5

Otherwise list is nice.
Hopethe quirks balance the chassis becuase Im sick of meta xx

[Brizna]

I once thought CMD-TDK was better than all Locusts. But that was based on an oversight, becuase both are what I call ultralight mechs and Commandohas 5 tons more while being equally fast I assumed it had a significant advantage in payload (weapons+AMS/ECM/BAP...) well that simply is a mistake, reality is that maxing armor and engine on LCT and CMD (CMD-2D special case) gives you this:
Locust: 6.5 tons
Commando: 7 tons.
HALF TON!! That doesn't get you anywhere.

All in all
CMD:
+Armor
+Real Arms that can swing
+Real Arms that get shot often (more effective armor)
+0.5T extra payload, not much but well better than nothing
-Real arms that get destroyed frequently along with your weapons (all weapons in TDK's case)

LCT:
+Some variants have very nice hardpoints superior to those of any commandos(1E, 3M)
+More modules, both weapons and mech.
+Better pitch and swing (though some of it is compensated by lack of real arms but not all)
+Almost imposble to disarm (will get killed before that happens)
+Slightly smaller so harder to it, the difference is small but still...
-Less armor
-No shield arms

I still prefer the TDK over any locust but that's my preference for real arms and I can see why some other people would prefer boating 6MLas hands down.

Now some comments on some variants:
LCT-1V this mech sucks in the early game but gains utility as the mechs become damaged, arguably could be rated lower than most other LCT.
LCT-3S this mech has way too many misile hardpoint for such a tiny payload it's definitely the worst locust.
CMD-2D has unarguably the worst weapon hardpoints of all CMDs something that is compensated by ECM, it's also slower but in exchange gets 1.5T extra tons to play with. This mech is solid just becuase of the ECM, if ECM is nerfed as it seams it's going to be in the future it will go down in tiers prety fast.

But certainly all firestarters and jenners are better than any locust or commando, the reasson why their least popular variants might have similar statistics to the best CMDs and LCTs is that both jenners and firestarters have variants that are in META STATUS so most people play them, on the other hand LCT and CMD have a (deserved) fame of crap mechs that tend to appeal to VETERAN players looking for a challenge.

TLDR:
Tier 4: CMD-TDK/2D, LCT 1E/3M
Tier 5: CMD-1B/1A/3A, LCT-1V/1M
Tier Hopeless: LCT- 3S

Edited by Brizna, 02 October 2014 - 03:45 AM.

[Belorion]

@Sandslice. You mention nerfs several times. It does not sound like that is on the table at all. Only buffs to the worse tiers. Their intent here is to get the IS mechs closer to clan. In fact they mention somewhere that the reason all the victors are in 1 is due to the removal of their negative quirks.

Edited by Belorion, 02 October 2014 - 03:49 AM.

[Wolfways]

DarthPeanut, on 01 October 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

Already OP JM6-S huh. Cannot tell if you are being serious.

If so you need to lay off the drugs.

AC's are OP. The JM6-S carries 4. I consistently get high damage/match scores in it. Unfortunately (I don't like ballistics) it is by far my best mech. My wife has a JM6-DD with almost the same build and she also considers it the best mech in the game by far. It's basically a mini dakka-wolf with more maneuverability.

[DarthPeanut]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

AC's are OP. The JM6-S carries 4. I consistently get high damage/match scores in it. Unfortunately (I don't like ballistics) it is by far my best mech. My wife has a JM6-DD with almost the same build and she also considers it the best mech in the game by far. It's basically a mini dakka-wolf with more maneuverability.

Ok, you must be trolling or at least I sure hope so.

You point out you do not like ballistics and you believe they are OP. Presumably that is why you are 'talking up' the IS ballistic platform you do not want to see get quirks? Yet you consistently play it and think it is the best mech you have... odd but ok.

What is a consistent high score to you? Solo matches or large group drops?

A Jager S has the hard points for 4 ballistics (6 for a DD) but cannot use them effectively unless you want a less than impressive ac2 boat, or want to crawl around the map at speeds slower than assaults with a fraction of the ammo and armor. The best loadouts in my opinion and most others I have seen do not use 4 ballistics.

Jager S and DD best mechs in the game. Come on, lets be honest... that is ridiculous. Mini dakka wolf huh. Like a Locust is a mini laser vomit Stormcrow.

ETA: I run Jagers a bit lately, they are pretty decent and I like them. I think they are basically on par with how they are placed on the chart currently. A mid tier or slightly higher mech. Not a top tier as you are asserting. I would dare say that a decent shawk or stormcrow build/ pilot can easily go heads up with a Jager right now. Not the marks of a top tier heavy.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 02 October 2014 - 06:20 AM.