647 replies to this topic

[EvilCow]

Cavale, on 30 September 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

As an Aside, where is Huggin on this list? Not exactly an all star of the Ravens.

Tier 6 is not shown in the table.

[Maxxximal]

The five tier competitiveness measure is derived from the functional capabilities of each mech.

Mech competitiveness is a direct result of mech build/loadout + pilot skill/focus and the specifics of a competitive situation (map+team+format+rules+...).

People will get bogged down comparing baseballs to grapefruit; they are both round but ...

The five tier measure is a loose framework to contemplate quirks. If it fails to work 100% so what; focus on the details of the quirks.

The devil is in the details.

[LORD ORION]

List mostly looks good.... but one glaring thing.

How the hell can The Death's Knell be comparable to the COM-2D? (sure both are not great currently but...)
One has ECM.
Putting TDK in tier 4 would still be a whopper that would raise some eyebrows after the explanation.

A few other opinions.

1) Trebs
TBT-3J is a decent mech with it's 5 arm energy hard points- Tier 3
TBT-LDG is not nearly as good... TBTs don't really have the weight to be missile boats in a 12 mech match (maybe 8) so having 2 launchers in the chest and 2 in the arms at the expense of energy hard points is not all that awesome. So tier 4....
If it had 3x launchers in the arms and 1 in the chest (kind of like a TBT-3J except with missiles in the arms), it could maybe be a T3. (eg: 3x SRM4s for some aimable crunch)

2) Orions
ON1-M needs to move down to T5. It simply has mentally deficient hard points.
V and VA have more missle options
V has 2x Ballistics
K has more energy mounts
Nothing you can do with an M configuration that you can't make better on the other variants

3) Stalkers
I dunno what to say about the 3H and 4N, clearly the 4N is flat out inferior to the other Stalkers (it has 1 less hard point) but... it's also a Stalker so it's still a decent mech. I dunno... 3H is a Tier 3.5 mech and not a 4?

[EvilCow]

I am worried that just quirks may not be enough for some mechs, the problem often is a bad distribution or quantity of slots. Very often high tier mechs just have more slots, mainly more energy slots.

Something like the Raven-H (just to make an example, this applies to a lot of mechs in all classes) is beyond help unless some extra slots are added.

[Tastian]

Whats a Griffin 1E?

Anyway, for the most part I find this list very accurate. I could probably nitpick a few points but I'll let them go. But there are some seemingly obvious problems:

LIGHT MECHS -
1) Commandos should not be on the same tier as any Firestarter or the Spider 5D.
2) Spider 5D - Tier 2 (from 3)

MEDIUM MECHS -
1) Cicada 3M - Tier 2 (from 3)
2) Griffin Sparky - Tier 2 (from 3)
3) Vindicator 1R / 1X - Tier 5 (from 4)

HEAVY MECHS -
1) Flame and Quickdraw 5K should NOT be on the same tier as Jagermechs and Ilya
2) Cataphract Ilya - Tier 2 (from 3)
3) Cataphract 1X / 2X - Tier 3 (from 4)
4) Catapult K2 / J - Tier 2 (form 3)
5) Dragon Flame - Tier 4 (from 3)
6) Quickdraw 5K - Tier 4 (from 3)
7) Jagermech S / DD - Tier 2 (from 3)

ASSAULT
1) Banshee 3E - Tier 2 (from 3)
2) Battlemaster 1S - Tier 3 (from 4)
3) Highlander 733C - Tier 3 (from 2)

[LT. HARDCASE]

As an extensive medium mech jock, I can't complain, really. I do feel have a few feelings/comments:

• Vindicators: the 1R and 1X are T5, period. The 1AA and SIB are just barely T4, at least when compared to the other two variants do the higher engine caps and better hardpoints. But it still takes lot of skill and effort to truly contribute in any one of these chassis. Maybe too much?
  
• Sparky is at least T2 of its weight class. It can stand up to any SHD or GRF 1v1.
  
• TBT-LDG is indeed the best variant of that chassis. That said, it still needs to be T4 because of how oversized the Trebuchet chassis is for a 50t mech.
  
• Kintaros: There's no reason for Golden Boy and the 18 to be T3, just because they can carry a bunch of LRM5s. In ll other roles they're T4, and they need to be balanced around that thought.

Edited by Kevjack, 01 October 2014 - 11:29 AM.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

good list,give it couple of weeks real life testing and after that make the necessary tweaks

[Oogalook]

I absolutely love the idea of a massive quirk patch to bring the IS up to scratch. I agree with most here in contesting the Tier 1 placement of the Victor. I also feel like the Spider 5K is underrated here. Other than that, quirk away! I'm in great excitement!

Here's something: Consider increasing the engine size limit on some of the weak Mediums and Heavies. This won't change the game balance and still would allow for greater customization options for those 'mechs, making them a little bit more attractive.

Edited by Oogalook, 01 October 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[DarthPeanut]

Xarian, on 01 October 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

The Firebrand apparently got bumped up a Tier due to the enhanced engine cap. It's not much of a difference, but it is a difference.
All Victors got T1 status because their most effective loadout is essentially the same on every variant; shuffling the hardpoints around does very little.

The Firebrand may have a higher engine cap but realistically you cannot run a loadout to use it unless you sacrifice the firepower. Firepower is a Jagers main asset imo, so to have an overly fast Jager with mediocre firepower seems a poor trade. Definitely not what I would consider higher tier.

I may be biased to what works for me though. I run STD275, XL280, and XL300 engine in my three Jagers. I cannot see wanting to go above an XL300 for any reason currently. The Firebrand funny enough is the one with the STD275, throws people off when it does not have an XL.

Victors may be tier 1 cause of their former glory days but we shall see which shines once the negative quirks are removed. PPC changes and JJ changes are going to make the old optimized builds less effective regardless of the quirks. I personally think the brawler builds will be the go to now for many people.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 01 October 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Flyby215]

I really like the list! I think most mechs are where they should be.

Although, I think we need to count the Flame as a 3.5 and the Ilya as a 2.5. Seeing them in the same tier seems kind of strange to me...

I also felt strange seeing the Stalker 4N in the same tier as the 3H. Pretty Baby in the same tier as... well... anything.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

ECM really seems to be pushing a number of variants very high up the list. I think fixing ECM before making a pass at quirks will help in placing those variants in an appropriate tier. Otherwise a number of ECM chassis will be immediately outclassed as soon as ECM is balanced.

Additionally. I don't know that an Awesome 9M should be tier 4, but it definitely outclasses the other tier 5 Awesome variants due to the increased engine (and heat) capacity.

[Oogalook]

I counsel that more various and interesting quirks be implemented than simple armor or cooldown buffs. The heat transfer perk of the Hellslinger is a good example- something a bit out of the ordinary which conceivably was the focus of the 'mech's design.
Perhaps Catapults could get more rapid target acquisition and info gathering- this would benefit the precision-shooting of the J and K2 and still help the missile-slingers.

I have thought of a neat thing to do with the Centurion: What if you had it just hold its left arm up in front of its torso a little bit? Without changing its shape or armor values, you could make the shield arm do more shielding, giving a greater defensive effect!

I also support the idea that the Dragon be endowed with a considerable boost in speed and maneuverability. It's main weakness- far beyond the unusual hardpoint setup- is its inherent wideness. It's CT is huge, and its arm weapons are far apart and low. What it needs is more agility to make up for its cumbersome shape.

[Hoax415]

Xarian, on 01 October 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Ilya and the Jagermechs (including Firebrand) all belong in the same Tier, really - probably T2, like you said. The Jagermechs are too similar to separate them. Ilya is a very strong mech, but it's a tough call between T2 and T3. The Catapult A1 is a superb missile boat; it's T3 because it's good at its job - you apparently don't think that pure missile boats are good, but plenty of other folks do.

Agreed with the SHD-5M. Not sure how it's on par with the others; it's straight-out inferior.

The Firebrand apparently got bumped up a Tier due to the enhanced engine cap. It's not much of a difference, but it is a difference.

I think if we had to pick 3 chassis for Russ/PGI to explain in detail and rethink from 15+ pages of responses they would be:
-Firestarters
-Cataphracts
-Jagermechs

Everything else is pretty minor but those 3 rightfully are confusing people.

stjobe, on 01 October 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Great post. Hopefully PGI is aiming to minor mainly flavorful boosts t2 mechs, bump some/most t3 mechs up so they at least are t2 and really work on t4 and t5 mechs in the hopes that all of them are at least on par with where t3 was at before the quirk pass.

EvilCow, on 01 October 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

I am worried that just quirks may not be enough for some mechs, the problem often is a bad distribution or quantity of slots. Very often high tier mechs just have more slots, mainly more energy slots.

I believe there is a very valid concern to draw from all this and that is that IS Energy is in a much worse place than Ballistic and Missile hardpoints. PPC's are out of favor thanks to the slow speed which combines really poorly with a minimum range. Small and Small Pulse are worthless-tier bad. MPL and LPL are just too hot for most builds. IS Large Lasers would be pretty good except you can't boat them effectively thanks to ghost heat. While the workhorse medium laser just isn't any good compared to what clan lasers do so it really feels weak even though it isn't when you are facing clan mechs. And lets never speak of flamers.

Thing is, changing IS energy could pretty drastically shuffle the tier list. I'd love to hear Russ' thoughts on where IS energy weapon systems are after looking at the tier list and seeing how energy dominant variants seemingly are all lower tier.

Edited by Hoax415, 01 October 2014 - 12:42 PM.

[Amuro Kerensky]

Flame is in no way comparable to anything else in T3. Its T4, tops. But it and the DRG-1C belong in T5 due to their horrid hitboxes and hardpoints (both numbers and the layout).

Vindicators that arent the 1AA are also too high. Same with the Yen Lo Wang. Too slow for their weight/size and too underarmed, respectively.

Deaths Knell isnt a T3 mech either. Its only got four arm mounted energy hardpoints that are super easy to blast off, which makes it directly inferior to all Jenners and Firestarters. Its slightly better than that one locust with 5 energy points by virtue of having an extra 5 tons. But the Locust can bring as much or more firepower.

The Awesome 8R is probably over-tiered as well. Its popularity and performance are directly related to how good LRMs are in any given patch. And considering how wildly theyve swung between worthless and overpowered in pub matches? Its a bit of a crap shoot.

Edited by Amuro Kerensky, 01 October 2014 - 12:41 PM.

[Abigail Acerose]

Tastian, on 01 October 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

HEAVY MECHS -
1) Flame and Quickdraw 5K should NOT be on the same tier as Jagermechs and Ilya

Amuro Kerensky, on 01 October 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Flame is in no way comparable to anything else in T3. Its T4, tops. But it and the DRG-1C belong in T5 due to their horrid hitboxes and hardpoints (both numbers and the layout).

Absolutely right!

I wrote a fairly detailed argument about the Flame earlier in this thread... I hope someone important gives it a look.

[Jettrik Ryflix]

IMO, the Victor isn't really a tier 1 mech just because it's negative quirks are gone. Along with the quirks, there have been massive nerfs to Jump Jets, and PPCs. So the poptarting builds, which are probably to blame for the Tier 1 status, will still be massively nerfed.
Just my 2 cents.

[Iqfish]

Hello!

WarThunder player here.
As you may know, they use a "player formed" battlerating system. Planes are being rated by their performance in game, recieve a number from 1.0 to about 8.0 and are thrown into the matchmaker.

THIS DOES NOT WORK!
Either Gaijin is tuning some numbers (Russia and stuff) or it's a flawed system by default.

Please be very careful with this Tiersystem, but I really really like the Idea of classifying Mechs in MWO not just in L/M/H/A.

[Shalune]

I agree that this list is an almost perfect reflection of the above average PUGer's opinion. Sadly if you're after vaguely objective data to use for balancing, it's a giant joke.

Not listing any T1 mediums alone shows a complete lack of experience with high-skill pilots. Similar bias is reflected across the entire list.

[Jakob Knight]

The lists seem, for the most part, pretty accurate. The only thing I would change is the inclusion of a 'Tier 6' for the Locust. Literally every other mech in the Light mech Tier 5 outstrips it easily in performance, and the setup of the game (combat first, last, and only) makes the only thing the Locust does well aside from dying (that is, save tonnage for the Unit as whole) useless. There is, literally, no reason to use any other mech, as even a Commando gains 5 precious tons to work with (and 5 tons is critical when you are dealing with Light mechs, especially at the bottom level of those). Spiders have the same speed and better maneuverability, payload, and firepower options, while the Ravens offer better payload, armor, and firepower options. No need to even compare Jenners or Firestarters to the Locust. And all of these others cost the exact same for a Unit to bring to the battlefield.

The Locust probably needs the greatest adjustments of any mech in the game for them to be useful, and I don't see the same level of adjustment applied to the other mechs in the Light Tier 5 level giving this model of mech the same capabilities. Doing so will just leave the LCT in the same position relative to the other Light mechs that it has now.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 01 October 2014 - 02:40 PM.

[Kirkland Langue]

There is no reason that a Mech Tier list should follow a bell curve. In fact, such a distribution would be awful.

Want to know what the game would look like if only 5% of the Mechs fell into the Tier 1 category?
Simple: only 5% of the mechs would be played competitively. With Tier 2 being used to fill the ranks... and the remaining majority of mechs would be sidelined simply because they are outclassed.

A better distribution would basically seek to have only 1 or maybe 2 tiers - with every mech in the game filling a niche. Every mech in the game should have a reason to be added to a drop deck.