647 replies to this topic

[CutterWolf]

Russ, what is the over all goal here? I would like to know your teams vision on how they and you see this list ending up. "If" the over all goal is the completely level the playing field this game is going to get old fast as each mech will be a "jack-of-all-trades" But, "if" your goal is to give each mech a "nich" or "role" that it will have a fighting chance at then this game will continue to grow.

[Soul Tribunal]

I think the Jager's are quite well placed to be honest, and in my SHD's I've taken out more than my fair share in Face offs. They do need something, much more so than the SHD's do.

-ST

[Sandslice]

Belorion, on 02 October 2014 - 03:48 AM, said:

@Sandslice. You mention nerfs several times. It does not sound like that is on the table at all. Only buffs to the worse tiers. Their intent here is to get the IS mechs closer to clan. In fact they mention somewhere that the reason all the victors are in 1 is due to the removal of their negative quirks.

The other 'Mechs that got quirk passes lost theirs - the Awesome, Dragon, Hunchback, and Centurion. So it's clear that they wanted to normalise everything, then establish and solidify the tier list, and then reassign quirks based on it. Leaving the first-pass quirks up would have underrated the Victors while overrating Dragons.

This is just me speculating, but the purpose for this tiering seems to be internally balancing the IS, not for balancing against the Clans. When I refer to nerfs, I can clarify that it's based on my belief that each tier will get a quirk package generally weighted to be balanced within a tier (and possibly a weight class as well.)

Within this, this is my thought:
Tier 5 will get nothing but buffs, and the lion's share of them;
Tier 4 will be biased toward buffs; some might get only some buffs, while others get more buffs balanced out by some nerfs;
Tier 3 will be the baseline, and its 'Mechs will get a rough zero-sum weighting between buffs and nerfs;
Tier 2 will be biased toward nerfs;
Tier 1 will be seeing red, and plenty of it.

ETA: Eventually. The road map, for now, will be focusing on the Tier 5 buffs, while not touching Tier 1.

Edited by Sandslice, 02 October 2014 - 07:45 AM.

[Hoax415]

You are wrong.

No IS mechs are seen as needing negative quirks going into this "quirk pass". Tier 1 mechs are expected to have zero quirks positive or negative and from there tiers 2-5 are expected to have more numerous quirks and/or quirks that do more.

i.e. tier2 mechs might on average have 1 minor quirk while tier5 mechs might on average have 4 quirks including some with much larger or important effects.

You are also right.

The placement of each variant represents its tier with zero quirks, positive or negative. Not their current state. Hence VTR's are t1 and AWS's are t5.

As to the balance versus Clan mechs. They are all considered tier1 or 2 until proven otherwise. Yes even the Summoner who will obviously be benefiting from the JJ changes but being hurt by the Clan XL change.

After the IS quirk pass is completed and PGI is satisfied with the state of IS mech balance they will most likely look at the Clan roster and determine if any Clan mechs should be considered lower (3-5) tier but that is well into the future and would be silly to do until Wave 2 has been out for cbills long enough for the playerbase to use them all and discover builds for them.

Edited by Hoax415, 02 October 2014 - 09:01 AM.

[Wolfways]

DarthPeanut, on 02 October 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

Ok, you must be trolling or at least I sure hope so.

You point out you do not like ballistics and you believe they are OP. Presumably that is why you are 'talking up' the IS ballistic platform you do not want to see get quirks? Yet you consistently play it and think it is the best mech you have... odd but ok.

What is a consistent high score to you? Solo matches or large group drops?

A Jager S has the hard points for 4 ballistics (6 for a DD) but cannot use them effectively unless you want a less than impressive ac2 boat, or want to crawl around the map at speeds slower than assaults with a fraction of the ammo and armor. The best loadouts in my opinion and most others I have seen do not use 4 ballistics.

Jager S and DD best mechs in the game. Come on, lets be honest... that is ridiculous. Mini dakka wolf huh. Like a Locust is a mini laser vomit Stormcrow.

ETA: I run Jagers a bit lately, they are pretty decent and I like them. I think they are basically on par with how they are placed on the chart currently. A mid tier or slightly higher mech. Not a top tier as you are asserting. I would dare say that a decent shawk or stormcrow build/ pilot can easily go heads up with a Jager right now. Not the marks of a top tier heavy.

That's what i hate about these forums. Someone does something you can't so they must be lying.
I never said i was against the Jagermech getting buffs, i was just surprised that other (high ELO) players don't do well in them. I assume people i play with don't do well because their builds suck (probably the builds you're talking about).
A stock-weapon JM6-S with Endo, XL engine, and around 9tons of ammo rips any mechs apart easily.
Of course AC's are OP, they have the highest dps in the game. Only LRM's compare for dps on paper but LRM's suck in MWO.

[MavRCK]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 30 September 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

[color=#00FFFF]Also here is the Tier list we are using, I am sure plenty of debate will ensue. I will listen to requested changes but remember everyone will want to push their favorite down the tier list so it can get more buffs. This was created with great consideration from those that are always looking for the most competitive builds.[/color]

So… out of curiosity..

Why isn't this tier list banned, moderated and flamed?



(joke!)

Can I get a Dire Wolf for originating the tier list?

Thanks!

[Apnu]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

That's what i hate about these forums. Someone does something you can't so they must be lying.
I never said i was against the Jagermech getting buffs, i was just surprised that other (high ELO) players don't do well in them. I assume people i play with don't do well because their builds suck (probably the builds you're talking about).
A stock-weapon JM6-S with Endo, XL engine, and around 9tons of ammo rips any mechs apart easily.
Of course AC's are OP, they have the highest dps in the game. Only LRM's compare for dps on paper but LRM's suck in MWO.

Oh hell yeah. the JM6-S w/ 4 ACs (be they AC2s, AC5, or a mix) is a beast. I drive one often. Its beatable tho. The huge torsos and the need for XL make it somewhat squishy and packing 4 ballistics (that aren't MGs) means even with a XL engine you're going to be near stock speed. Plus lacking lower arm actuator make the arms very stiff. Its pretty easy to dance away from AC2 or AC5 dakka. That build requires the pilot to sustain fire for a while for it to be effective. The Dual AC10s, LB10s and AC20 builds are still common because of that.

I would never say the ballistic Jager is OP. Its in a "just right" place now. Its got a good balance of positives and negatives. Its fair.

[xWiredx]

My feedback (sorry, a little late)

Fall damage: I feel like the amount of fall damage could probably be scaled back a bit. Surely when a 100 ton war machine is designed, they take shock absorbance of that level into account. One does not design such a large machine and then think to themselves "you know, the same shock absorbing stuff we used on that 40T machine should work on this, too." Think of it this way: There is already technology out there that can exert 200,000 psi, and multiple instances of this would easily fit in smaller mechs legs, let alone the Atlas's. So assuming a slow technological growth rate, it would still be possible to absorb a great deal of the impact.

JJ turn rate: I agree with the change, but I also think that turning while using JJs shouldn't be as fast as it is now, especially for heavier mechs. I think the JJ turn rate should also be linked to the mech weight, not just the amount of JJs equipped.

Quirks: I feel like the ECM Commando and ECM Cicada could be moved up a tier, while the Hunchback 4P, Flame, and Atlas RS could all be moved down a tier.

[focuspark]

HA no wonder I feel like a crap pilot, all of my favorite 'mechs (except the CN9-D) are in the tier 5 category.

Does this make me a masochist?

[lpmagic]

The 733C

definitely not in tier 2, of course, IMHO

if the 733C is even tier 3 i would be surprised as well, it see's virtually no play at any level of the game any more, the JJ work made them inoperable save as a ground pounding brawler or side peeker, and it just does not have the whotspa (or armor in specific regions) to keep up with the Atlas DDC.
Not beating a dead horse, Happy you are doing this at all !!
There is no way a mech, that was king of the hill should have changed it's own placard to Mr. Underhill, this mech (really the chassis) needs help

Edited by lpmagic, 02 October 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[Hoax415]

lpmagic, on 02 October 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

The 733C

definitely not in tier 2, of course, IMHO

All signs to point to the tier list being a reflection not of current power levels but of power levels after the planned JJ buffs and after all quirks are removed. Both positive, and more importantly in the case of the 733C, negative.

That's why Victors and Highlanders are so high, better jets and no more negative quirks and that's why Awesomes are t5 because that's judging the AWS chassis without all those quirks they were given.

[DarthPeanut]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

That's what i hate about these forums. Someone does something you can't so they must be lying.
I never said i was against the Jagermech getting buffs, i was just surprised that other (high ELO) players don't do well in them. I assume people i play with don't do well because their builds suck (probably the builds you're talking about).
A stock-weapon JM6-S with Endo, XL engine, and around 9tons of ammo rips any mechs apart easily.
Of course AC's are OP, they have the highest dps in the game. Only LRM's compare for dps on paper but LRM's suck in MWO.

I did not say you where lying anywhere in my post. I do however disagree with your opinion they are "OP" or "best" mech for the reasons I posted. There is a distinct difference. It is not a personal thing, just a open discussion and I have an opinion directly in contrast to yours. I tend to say things pretty straight out and slightly sarcastic manner.

People who play a specific mech enough can adapt to them and do fairly well.

I guess I will have to try that loadout again sometime on either my S or DD. I did not care for it in the past over what I run currently, but as I said earlier I am not a fan of ac2's among other things about it. Stock S loadout of weapons, endo, dhs, xl280, 9 tons of ammo... you are giving up a lot of armor which is already in limited supply on a Jager. That little armor you can more or less be one shot component destruction by anything with a decent alpha. Unless maybe you are going XL255 or something smaller. Little warm as well which is going to drop your sustained DPS (assuming you are only running 10 dhs).

ETA: Sorry I see now this is spiraling off into a discussion that really is not for this thread now honestly as it ventures away from feedback on the tier list.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 02 October 2014 - 11:47 AM.

[Donovan Valencourt]

Is the Huggin missing from the quirk list or am I just blind?

[Wolfways]

DarthPeanut, on 02 October 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

I did not say you where lying anywhere in my post. I do however disagree with your opinion they are "OP" or "best" mech for the reasons I posted. There is a distinct difference. It is not a personal thing, just a open discussion and I have an opinion directly in contrast to yours. I tend to say things pretty straight out and slightly sarcastic manner.

People who play a specific mech enough can adapt to them and do fairly well.

I guess I will have to try that loadout again sometime on either my S or DD. I did not care for it in the past, but as I said earlier I am not a fan of ac2's to begin with. Especially after the ac changes.

"You point out you do not like ballistics and you believe they are OP. Presumably that is why you are 'talking up' the IS ballistic platform you do not want to see get quirks?"
That to me says you think I'm lying.
I don't see how anyone can deny that AC's are OP...unless they believe that AC's were UP in TT for 30years. PGI gave AC's a huge ROF increase over other weapons.

But i don't really play mechs that i don't like. I only have the JM6-S to play together with my wife if she plays IS in CW, otherwise I'd sell it like i have done with most of my IS mechs. We used to play them together a lot, and when two mechs can take on 7+ enemy mechs or regularly take on full enemy lances without much worry then i say it's OP.

I don't care too much if the Jagermech gets buffs. Unlike most players I'm not hoping for the mythical balance that will fix everything, and tbh i like fighting any players in any mechs. Screw balance

But I've come to realize that i disagree with most opinions on these forums.
LRM's are one of the worst weapons in the game. Assaults are the worst mechs. Lights are possibly the best...well the most annoying anyway (I only used stock lights). AC's are OP. Maps are far too small. Etc.

[Evogenesis]

For reference there is also the Mavrck tier list and Gman129 tier list. It seems this list is an amalgamation of both.

Overall, fairly good. No major complaints. I think the Quickdraw 5K and Flame made tier 3 solely on their ability to boat 4 ERLL; a tactic used by some teams. The BLR-3M and BNC3M may be moved down a tier. The BLR-1S could be moved up to tier 3 (strong LRM boat) while the BNC-3E with its meta loadout of 3AC5 could be moved up as well.

The Awesomes with the heat, cooling, and CT quirks really did find a whole new life in the chassis. Please don't take these away, just build on them a bit. My AWS9M is at a pretty sweet spot right now.

[DarthPeanut]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

But I've come to realize that i disagree with most opinions on these forums.
LRM's are one of the worst weapons in the game. Assaults are the worst mechs. Lights are possibly the best...well the most annoying anyway (I only used stock lights). AC's are OP. Maps are far too small. Etc.

I will shock your reality then. I actually agree with most of this other than Lights being possibly the best because I am a Medium and Heavy Pilot (not so great in lights). Well and AC's being OP but that is clearly debatable (keeping in mind I am talking about IS ACs).

Hope you do not take my responses as me having an issue with you personally or just being a forum thug. I respect you have a difference of opinion honestly, although I might disagree and will give you a rash of trouble for it.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 02 October 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Wolfways]

DarthPeanut, on 02 October 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

I will shock your reality then. I actually agree with most of this other than Lights being possibly the best because I am a Medium and Heavy Pilot. Well and AC's being OP but that is clearly debatable (keeping in mind I am talking about IS ACs).

Hope you do not take my responses as me having an issue with you personally. I respect you have a difference of opinion honestly although I might disagree and will give you a rash of trouble for it.

I have no problem discussing things, although I'm very stubborn
I'm also a medium and heavy pilot, but i have mastered many IS lights and assaults.

My problem with AC's is that in TT an AC5 had the same dps as a ML...5 damage/10 seconds. In MWO PGI have increased the ROF of AC's to the point where they vastly outperform lasers. I know they are heavy and require ammo, but lasers require just as much weight/crit slots in DHS imo.
On the other hand the amount of ammo you need to carry in MWO is ridiculous for all ammo-based weapons, and is the reason that stock mechs that need a lot of ammo are not viable. A CPLT-C1 carries 2 tons of LRM ammo, yet in MWO it needs around 8 tons+ to last a match, because PGI took stock mechs that were designed for a game where matches represented a few minutes of real time and put them into a game where matches are up to 15 minutes real time.
Imo all ammo/ton should be tripled from TT amounts, before the armour increase.

But I've started rambling...

[warner2]

It's worth bearing mind on this quirk pass that many of the lower tier heavy and assault IS 'mechs are energy boats. Ghost heat basically does this. IS energy boats above a certain tonnage are weak unless you are boating ERLL on high mounted weapon points (beneath a certain tonnage you can use ML or even MPL and ballistics are too heavy at lower tonnages anyway). It's a shame because it means the 'mechs with ballistic slots are just better. The Black Knight could be implemented and be DOA.

[Tzukasa]

A few suggested changes:

SHD-2H, SHD-5M both Down from Tier 2 to 3
SHD-2D, SHD-2K both Up from Tier 2 to 1
(SHD-2D2 Stay at Tier 2 IMO)

GRF-1N, GRF-3M both Up from Tier 2 to 1
GRF-1E Sparky UP from Tier 4?! to Tier 2 For Sure

AS7-RS Down from Tier 3 to 4

That's all I can think of atm. Most all of it looks pretty good aside from those few exceptions. I mean seriously the GRF 1N/3M and SHD-2K ect. are used in competitive play atm as top mechs... They are def Tier 1.

[ExAstris]

Apnu, on 02 October 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Oh hell yeah. the JM6-S w/ 4 ACs (be they AC2s, AC5, or a mix) is a beast. [...]

I would never say the ballistic Jager is OP. Its in a "just right" place now. Its got a good balance of positives and negatives. Its fair.

Which is to say that the quad ballistic Jagers are among the best options the IS have. Hence why there have been several people (myself included) suggesting they be moved to tier 2 with the other 'best of the IS heavies'. Its no mad cat (hence not tier 1), but only a few cataphracts can conceivably be considered as better IS heavies, and not by the same margin as the quad-AC jagers are above the other tier 3 heavies (Flame, Catapults, and a Quickdraw... ?), hence the push to move them to tier 2.



On the topic of weapons in relation to mech tiers and quirks:
I think the list we have is indicative of the state of several weapon systems. Ballistics rule on heavy+ and lasers rule on lights, while anything IS relying on missiles is screwed (save maybe the best stalkers?).

Of course, the problem with buffing IS LRMs or SRMs is that then people will want you to buff the corresponding clan weapons (why would IS SRMs do 2.5 damage while clan ones only deal 2.0?). But they're balanced just fine for the clans, because they have almost identical performance but far lower mounting costs.

So instead of buffing IS missiles across the board, the quirk system seems like a good opportunity to give the IS a few competitive missile platforms without a weird asymmetry in the base stats of the IS/clan missiles themselves.