647 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Voyager I, on 05 October 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

AC/2s and AC/5s are among the worst weapons in the game by TT rules while Medium Lasers are very good and very efficient compared to other L1 tech. The fact that the low-caliber autocannons have improved dramatically compared to their paperback incarnations is one of the things PGI has gotten right in their balancing.

High DPS on sustained fire weapons is also very easy to overvalue. They don't concentrate damage and require continuous line of sight to a target to function, meaning they will almost never live up to their theoretical potential, doing so requires exposing yourself to much greater risk than something that only needs to shoot once every four seconds, and the damage they do inflict will generally be less efficient than being able to immediately drop 30+ points on one location. An AC/5 needs to have better DPS per ton than an AC/20 or a Gauss Rifle to be worth using.

My stock-weapon JM6-S does fine..in fact better than fine. It rips mechs apart very fast.

[Mobile Ordnance Platform]

can the K2 catapult please get special quirks for ppc

[Kali Rinpoche]

Very excited to see the new quirk system in action. I especially like that the negative quirks are being removed from the Victors! All of them except the DS have been collecting dust in my mech bay.

[Rufus Ingram]

As an almost exclusively Yen-Lo-Wang pilot since stat reset, I agree with it's ranking completely. Love using it through myriad patches, but it needs some love.

[Brienne]

VTR tier one? Considered fixed, really? So tier 5 Mechs wont have that big push, because tier 1 VTR looks pretty average.
He s not that tough, he s not that fast, he s not that powerful. He s average^^
Give him a chance and check after a bit plz.

DRG, AWS: tier 5 yeeeeeeees. Not too late.
CENTs: Don't forget AH, and plz note a Timber run as fast as a YLW. No need to compare their armor and power.
LCT, COM: They look funny, but broken.

By the way, do you consider AC2 a tier 5 weapon? Just asking.


PGI, this quirk twisting party reveals how unfair became MWO.
And after selling bunch of "OP" MC Clan mechs (now, IS are upgraded to fill the gap, so), you consider those already sold IS...

Edited by Brienne, 07 October 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[HUNTERS MOON]

So now you guys TAKE AWAY game mode choice to make your lives easier at the expense of your CUSTOMERS!!!!! What company ON EARTH does that and doesn't get less customers?

THINK THESE THINGS OUT.

What next, take away mech choices so matches are quicker?

[ShadowbaneX]

RENEGADEMOON, on 07 October 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

So now you guys TAKE AWAY game mode choice to make your lives easier at the expense of your CUSTOMERS!!!!! What company ON EARTH does that and doesn't get less customers?

THINK THESE THINGS OUT.

What next, take away mech choices so matches are quicker?

translation: THE THING THAT I CARE ABOUT IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IN THE GAME!!! HOW DARE YOU MAKE CHANGES TO YOUR GAME WITHOUT HAVING MY EXPLICIT PERMISSION TO CHANGE THINGS?!

[Moment Killer]

I've played too many games in Catapults. I agree that the A-1 and K-2 are tier 3 with their melt face abilities, given you have the right load-out, the right range for your load-out, and the right opponent. They also are able to put on missile or ballistic weapons, which the Jester cannot do. This can be the difference when you put massive damage to a location in an instant. Something that is harder to do with lasers as they are more of a damage over time deal. But at the same time I don't know if that's enough to move it down a tier.

Here's the point I'm getting at....The Jester with the right quirks can be the Inner Sphere's answer to the Timberwolf's laser boat. The range/dmg on the mediums vs clans er-mediums is something that holds them back. Another option would be the ability to dodge the extra heat with 3 ppc's. If ppc's remain where they are, this isn't a huge advantage over other mechs, and gives a fun loadout to the Jester. (There's plenty of mechs that can take a 30 dmg pinpoint build)

I'm on the fence on the C-1 being tier 3 or 4. I think it's between there somewhere.

I love my Catapults and haven't bothered to buy a C-4. So where it's at, I agree. It will have to be a great quirk for me to consider buying it.

[MadLibrarian]

Hoping for weapon type quirks instead of specific weapon quirks.

[Cochise]

Awesome list! Thumbs up!

[Fire and Salt]

GamerGirlGundam, on 06 October 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

can the K2 catapult please get special quirks for ppc

Why not just give it energy weapon quirks? Customization is what sets MW apart from other games. Weapon specific quirks should be extremely rarely used. (if ever)


IMO, a K2 with 2 LPLs, 2 MLs and 2MGs is just sensible as one with 3PPCs. No reason to encourage players to favor one over the other...

Edited by Fire and Salt, 08 October 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[ShadowbaneX]

Fire and Salt, on 08 October 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

Why not just give it energy weapon quirks? Customization is what sets MW apart from other games. Weapon specific quirks should be extremely rarely used. (if ever)

IMO, a K2 with 2 LPLs, 2 MLs and 2MGs is just sensible as one with 3PPCs. No reason to encourage players to favor one over the other...

I'd be unhappy with those. I run 4x ML & 2x uAC/5 on mine.

[Hoax415]

Heh do you think you proved a point there?

1) Its nice that you cherry pick the best Atlas variant by far and don't post the other two variants you own.

2) Lets just look at wins they are really the most valuable "trend" stat you've given us.

Your winrate with Atlas is 59/117 aka .504

Your winrate combined with all 3 DWF is 710/1353 aka .525

If we were to assume that you have some bias in how you tried to present information and think your DDC stats are your best Atlas variant stats lets compare that to your best DWF variant stats:

Your winrate with DDC is 59/117 aka .504

Your winrate with DWF-P is 441/795 aka .555

Uh oh.

3) Do you really think that your personal data "proves" something about overall balance?

[Hoax415]

.... I showed my work. I did divide by games played. How do you think I came up with percentages?

Your winrate in the DDC is 50.4% your winrate in the DWF-Prime is 55.5%

[Red Scorpion]

Hey, not that I have proficient experience in MWO but I have a good fix on MW4 and the mektek stuff and will be comparing by saying "What load kits do I get with this mech?". To translate kit to "synergetic stuff to use". Like medium Lasers with Large Pulse Lasers on a 17+DHS mech or ERPPC with a bunch of machine guns on a light. Ya'know, the stuff that works together in both heat and availability to the weight.

So for lights, seeing that machine guns and fast lasers are important. We say we like small pulse lasers and machine guns and a singular ERPPC on the chassis or a pair of ERLL's. High mounted weapons not a big deal, because they're small and peeking a hill is like a stalker showing his tummy lasers to fire them. The best being ravens and so on.

So what lights do these best? Is that included in the list? I can rock any raven and sling 2ppc's all day with the target dep module, almost loving the idea of baiting missiles that hit nothing after I duck and peek again. So with that module, I see ravens spread across the entire list. Sure it's a lackluster build but it works and people can base the mech on that build alone.

The Spider-5K I've seen worked well with 4mg and a large pulse. Sure he doesn't smash like a firestarter but he pinpoints the leg or torso much easier than a circling firestarter can, and still rocking the 4mg's like the ember. Yet this little dude is a 5th tier light. With massive potential to a useful heat buildup to pinpoint damage ratio.

Sure a good player can make any mech work by just hitting and having the engine to return to cover. You guys pin out the mechs that people have the worst time with? Perhaps the mightiest weak mech because there are so few weapon hardpoints?

I think a big infusion of weapons would shine balance on the game. Introduce more guns (like mektek did) where no matter what mech you took, if it had a certain range of free tonnage then any combo of the three weapon types could work together.

Slinging an example from mektek. The Gesu (a wrought with ill looks mech) 45 tonner that had no role. Couldn't missile boat, only a few laser hardpoints that couldn't support the big PPC's. Yet it could carry 8 slots of ballistic hardpoint weapons. All dual-slots, so no regular gauss rifles. Though with the heavy machine guns, packing 8 of them with the fastest engine and stabilizing upgrade to prevent being knocked down (be hit by 3 gauss and 2 ppc and you're getting back up right as he cools down for shot 2). Suddenly the little punk Gesu behind that hill is making the brawling Gargoyle full of an LBX 70 (2 20's 3 10's) scared of rounding the corner to meet him. That's what a new weapon breathes life into the 45 tonner that seemingly was a mid-way role support mech that commonly had 2 lrm15 and 2 large lasers before someone had their fun a few games and never touched the mech again. I mean I rarely saw one or two being played every 4 months that wasn't me using one. Seriously, a whole chassis (omni mech to boot). Untouched. As soon as people discovered that heavy machine gun build it became common for months afterward. The two items, Gesu and HMG were there from the same update too. No balance required, you need to be a good shot to kill a Gesu before you got taken down. Yet any other heavy mech with the same HMG build, even with more guns actually was a worse pick because it was larger and a easier to hit for the gesu. Surely it came into its own.

I would like to see the idea passed around for new weapons for Inner Sphere. Even if it's just the whole line of LBX2-LBX5-LBX20 among other ballistic additions.

I bet if you added some sort of continuous beam laser, where the DoT effect is more useful when you pick the damage over time instead of click and wait for it to burn and then re-arm. A 1:1 ratio of damage to heat like a PPC with a clan-lrm damage range preference since lasers need to focus on the exact inch distance from the laser. (At 2 feet away, set at 25 inches it does less than half the heat because it's one inch off in real life, or just sling a load of lasers aimed at one range to converge in a rough area for a 3 heat unit to 1 damage unit like our anti mortar laser defense today)

If it were possible to add fire arc weapons like long toms and the like, we would see some variety usefulness for low slung weapon mounts. Perhaps limit them to a tonnage limit per arm such as assault-mech only in arms, torso for the rest of the mechs and no mech under 60 tons can use it because of how uch the mech must weigh to handle the recoil. But then again it would be a light mechs nightmare to try and circle something with an area effect weapon on demand. Maybe with an air burst mode with a min range of 250 meters so terrain conflictions won't happen with it.

I travelled off topic some but I think "the whole picture" set to this topic should include the thought: Are we getting weapons that may somehow make "low tier mechs" much better? Most notably if a mech has few laser hardpoints then it cannot get away with using a large laser build to save itself from a players lack of ability/experience with SRM's and not enough tonnage or missile ports to be a LRM boat. So what will that mech+player's playstyle combo do next? Hope to dust it off when a quirk comes around to "save the mech" for the player who bought it. Or, have a new weapon that speaks to the lesser tonnage requirements that are not lasers or range prohibited. Long range "SRM's" for example or some type of ballistic weapon that is 3 tons that isn't limited to machine gun range.

It was on everyones mind, just sayin'.

[YueFei]

JTSR, on 09 October 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

not win rate that's based on team influence KILLS percentage to games that will give you balance reference

The only thing that matters is wins.

I would rather have a teammate with 10-to-1 Win/Loss ratio and a 1-to-10 KDR, rather than a guy with 1-to-10 Win/Loss ratio and 10-to-1 KDR.

The guy with the positive Win/Loss is doing things that dramatically improve his team's odds of winning. I don't care that he doesn't get kills. I want that man/woman/robot on my team.

The guy with the negative Win/Loss is doing things that dramatically reduce his team's odds of winning. I don't care that he gets more kills than deaths. I don't want that guy/gal/android on my team.

[Hoax415]

Beyond kills being a godawful stat to worry about (who gets the kill blow is meaningless, good light pilots get lots of kills but that isn't because lights are mega powerful).

The damage numbers for your DDC and DWF-P aren't even close. Damage is not an important stat compared to winning but again we can see how only by cherry picking your own, personal, one of thousands of players data can you come to the conclusion that Dire Whales suck compared to the DDC.

DWF-P = 386/match aka 30% more damage.

DDC = 296/match

Now Clan partisans will state that clan weapons do more damage but its less concentrated so the damage number has less meaning and I concede that this can be true. Obviously its better to core out a mech than rip off both his arms then core out a mech.

Which is why we go with wins, which is the thing that matters and given enough games we assume that the winrate does show us how much both mechs contribute to the team winning.

Edited by Hoax415, 10 October 2014 - 08:20 AM.

[Kreisel]

When you look at what quirks to give them Mechs, are you considering the stock configuration and Lore surrounding the feel of the Mech variants? It could be a large quality of life adjustment for new players if the quirks made the mechs stock builds more playable. I'd like to see some flavor to the mechs quirks based on the stock config (and champion config.) Players shouldn't be penalized for making a build that plays similar to how the mech is equipped when they buy it as oppose to optimizing it to the current Meta-flavor.

[Golden Vulf]

Protip, if you have no tier 1 mediums, your tier 2s are actually tier 1s.


Or are you implying that playing a medium class mech is just a mistake to begin with?

Edited by Golden Vulf, 14 October 2014 - 12:52 AM.

[Sarlic]

Finally the Atlas is getting some attention they need..