647 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

I don't get this list. I understand that it was created by "competitive" players, but are these stock mechs, weaponless chassis, customized mechs, what?

I don't understand some of it, like how the JM6-F is better than a JM6-S. AC's are the OP weapon. Why is a mech that has the AC's removed in favour of energy a better mech?

[Jeb]

Disappointed with the Jester quirks...

The only reason the Jester could be considered as Tier3 mech is because it has Jump Jets... without them it would be Tier4 I would think... yet the 2x Jump Jets don't do much for a Heavy Mech... Maybe if the Jump Jets worked based on mech tonnage instead of class, they would be better, but in their current form they pretty much suck...

Also the Jester has negative quirks that I don't see any mention of being removed:
Torso Yaw: 95°
Arm Pitch: 30°
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/#mechs_quirks

So what are the problems with the Jester?
1) 2x Jump Jets on heavy class mechs are garbage...
2) It has issues aiming due to it's current negative quirks...
3) The Jester is limited to all energy weapons so heat is a huge issue... it can't use anything that has low heat generation really... Common builds are 2x PPC or 2x LL as it's main weapons.
4) The Jester can't take much of a beating... the best thing about the PPC build was the ability to poke your head out, fire, hide, move positions, and repeat... once you goto Lasers, the burn time puts you in the open for awhile... also due to burn time, your more likely to spread the dmg around instead of hitting one location like a PPC build...

What we needed for the Jester was 4 things...
1) a quirk to increase the Jump Jet thrust to make it feel more like a mech with 3 or 4 Jump Jets... (I doubt this would happen but I was hoping)
2) the removal of the negative torso yaw and arm pitch quirks

3a) the new quirk Large Laser Heat Gen -15% applied to PPC, Large Pulse Lasers and ER Large Lasers as well... right now ya can't really use the pulse or ER lasers on the Jester due to the heat...
4a) get rid of the new quirk Large Laser Range +15%, and give it a Laser Duration perk instead... that would allow players to take Lasers instead of PPCs and still be able to fire quickly without having to stand out in the open so long...

or (crazy idea, make the Jester a pulse laser mech... solves the laser burn time issues)
3b) change the new quirk "Large Laser Heat Gen -15%" to "Pulse Laser Heat Gen -20%" (lowers heat enough you can equip the pulse lasers as you can remove some heat sinks due to the lower heat...)
4b) change the new quirk "Large Laser Range +15%" to "Pulse Laser Range +20%" (makes the pulse lasers usable for a non brawler)

Edited by Jeb, 17 October 2014 - 07:44 PM.

[Ramsess]

PGI if your trying to kill your own idea of "we want ppl to build what ever builds they like and that's why we won't have hardpoint sizes" excuse. Then please stop take a deep breath drop the quircks and think on making proper hardpoint sizes and there goes a whole lot of saved time and complaints that we have put up since a long time ago.

Thanks.

[Sorbic]

I like the general direction of quirks and thank your guys for your effort. However I saw the Jester post about JJ's and ECM negating a quirk. This doesn't make any sense as JJ's and ECM are what raised those mechs to their respective tier. IMO the Jester is only a T4 mech but it most definitely wouldn't have made it to T3 without JJ's. And the DDC wouldn't be in the same tier as the Misery without ECM. Please reconsider taking 1 quirk away for such items.

I mean the Jester is already my most regretful purchase as it is such an under-performer and less mobile (twist) than other Cats. Making it fall even farther behind by only giving it two (laughable compared to other quirks) 15% LL buffs will just tell me not to bother with hero mechs.

Edited by Sorbic, 18 October 2014 - 08:08 AM.

[Sorbic]

Creovex, on 17 October 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

I think you are wrong. Didn't Russ state that all NEGATIVE quirks were being removed thus the Jester is NOT being doubke hit as you state.

Go look at the Jester and K2. They don't have any quirks as the change was made at the base level so he is absolutely right. Unless they decide to go back and change it to pre-nerf status.

[Just wanna play]

The fatest awesome is only tier 4 awesome? seems legit


My atlas k def should get ams quirks....just saying..............

[ToxinTractor]

Honestly guys... Im kinda disappointed with the kintaro quirks.. Kinda feels like it should be a flat missile buff (Since it can also mount SRMs pretty well) or at the very least a general LRM buff instead of LRM 5s. A lot of these other ones though are great.

[warner2]

One important thing with these quirks is that they are properly represented in the UI. Can you see the effect of quirks and for that matter weapon modules in the UI? SRMs have always been 270m weapons and with a Tier 5 range module about 300m. I don't think that is reflected in the MechLab UI (it's hard to say because it's a graph) although it is on the range finder in-game. The cool down module on a PPC doesn't seem to be reflected in the UI. Obviously quirks add a whole other layer of variables to weapon ranges, cool downs, and so on and these really need to be reflected the UI otherwise it'd be pretty cumbersome to try to figure out and internalise how often and how far and for how much damage your weapons are firing. It should be telling me what the modified values are based on all applied quirks + modules right there in the UI.

Also, I presume +25% cooldown is an increase in firing rate. Seems a bit counter-intuitive as the actual cooldown number would go down with a buff?

[StUffz]

Any thoughts about the 3050 Version of Yen-Lo-Wang?
Although MASC is not intended yet the upgrade is build around a Gauss, MPL, Ferro and XL. Any thoughts for this Version to add as quirks?

Edited by StUffz, 18 October 2014 - 05:22 AM.

[Nightshade24]

TheMadTypist, on 17 October 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

I am curious what caused you to consider the Thunderbolt a skirmisher- it's not very fast, and it has very tank-like hitboxes if you keep the twisting up. What did you look at as far as designating one of the different roles for an individual 'mech? What differentiates a skirmisher from a support, or from a brawler?

The roles are usually done by there quirks, (stock) load out, and engine size typically. Hitboxes and the size of them normally never matter unless it is an "extra" one or 'reinforced" ie a shield or a weapon pod.

Skirmisher is a mech that is pretty much as good up close as it is at long range and also in the in between range. these mechs are normally medium and heavy mechs however some lights and assaults can fit the bill. They often require to be mobile as well and need to be fluid in combat, they are not a master of anything. just average at each thing.

These mechs are often 60 to 80 kph with often the weapons of choice being medium lasers, srm's, (close range weapons), large lasers, PPC's, AC 5's, (Med range weapons), and ER PPC's, LRM's, AC 2's, etc (long range weapons)

however these are not important to the role. These are just the popular weapons of choice.

The Thunderbolt 5S have...

Long range:
1 LRM 15
Medium range:
1 Large laser
Short range:
3 medium laser
1 SRM 2

With quite decent armour

65 kph (this is a stock IS mech with no speed tweak. This is decent speed for stock/cannon terms)


With 2 Machine guns for close up anti infantry and vehicle work. Not the best at a specific area but it's great.
If you put the Skirmisher up against a Brawler. Then up close it'll lose, also up close it'll lose to the juggernaut.
At range it'll lose to the supporter class roles in a long range combat.


A supporter class is a general name for these 2 main classes.

"Snipers" and "LRM boat"

Snipers normally have long range weaponry such as PPC's or ER PPC's or something like AC 2's or 5's
They feature in long range direct fire weaponary. ER large lasers not being to common but it isn't unheard of>
These tend to be slower then the brawlers, skirmishers, and strikers.
They carry some close up weapons but usually just for support when all else fails. tend to be machine guns, medium lasers, small lasers, etc.

Missile boats are similar in description to the snipers but they feature in indirect firepower. Arrow artillery system, LRM's, ATM's, Swarm Missile launchers, and sometimes described as a "Missile boat" a mech with a thumber of a long tom. even though these are ballistic weapons. These are inaccurate and have a huge firing arc.

2 examples of this that is quite good is the Catapult K2 and Catapult C1

K2 has 2 PPC's, 2 Medium lasers, 2 Machine guns. It tends to use the ppc's quite often and medium laser only for support and machine gunsfor vehicle and infantry work. The PPC's are high mounted and it's
C1 has 2 LRM 15's and 4 medium lasers. LRM 15's being the main weapon of choice while the lasers are close up support.

These support mechs often hide in semi-concealed areas or cover and away from possible light mechs or faster mechs.

[Scratx]

I have only one major issue with the quirking at the moment.

It's the ill-thought double penalty on JJ and ECM equipped mechs.

Russ, you do realise the tiering already reflects having access to ECM and Jumpjets? If it didn't, some of those chassis would be knocked at least one tier down in the minds of most. Taking out a quirk for having either is a double penalty that makes little sense.

Give those mechs fair treatment, please.

[HuganMcBabyEater]

Kaeb Odellas, on 17 October 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

Weapon-specific quirks are BLEGH.

You're going to kill any variety in loadouts for each variant. You'd be crazy to run an HBK-4G without an AC20, and you'd be stupid to run an 8Q without PPCs. BAD.

General ballistic/missile/energy quirks would be far better.

^ This. The weapon-specific quirks are looking like a band-aid fix; I'm not looking forward to the option of PB either forced to use 2x Large Lasers, or be an inferior build/mech - even for (new) PB standards.

[Selene Lunaris]

As people above me said - the weapon-specific quirks are just plain BAD. Most Jester players probably forsake the LLasers for PPCs or something. You're restricting variety. A much better way to go about this would be...

Let's take the Hunchback as an example. HBK-4G is a brawler, 4H is a skirmisher. How do we distinguish the two? Very simple: buff torso twist, torso yaw and general nimbleness on the 4G, give the 4H ballistic cooldown and range buffs. Percentual. Juuuust an example.

Edited by Chrona, 18 October 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[Sorbic]

Still smh at the JJ/ECM penalty as those are what elevated mechs to their respective tiers. All this is doing is making mechs like the Jester fall even farther behind the pack.

The Jester only gets 2 buffs because of it's 2 (max) JJ's. Which is the only reason it could come close to T3 btw.

Catapult Jester - Tier 3 Skirmisher

Large Laser Range +15%
Large Laser Heat Gen -15%

---
While the Oxide basically gets 5 different buffs.
Jenner Oxide - Tier 3 Brawler

Structure Strength (LL&RL) +4
SRM/4 Range +15%
SRM/4 Cooldown +15%
SRM/4 Heat Gen -15%

Got rid of the negative movement quirks that existed.
---
---
4 separate buffs here

Atlas AS7-D - Tier 3 Brawler

Structure Strength (RT&LT) +11
AC/20 Velocity +15%
AC/20 Cooldown +15%
SRM/6 Range +15%

Edited by Sorbic, 18 October 2014 - 01:01 PM.

[Void Angel]

I'd thought surely this would have been asked by now, but I can't find it - sorry, I live in a hole, and don't always track things as they happen. So!

When a quirk lists -% beam duration, does that compress the damage done by that laser, or does it reduce the damage by cutting off a damage tick? I'd hope it compresses, but I haven't seen it explicityly stated.

[warner2]

Same damage done in a shorter duration - which is a buff to accuracy and also recycle rate and so DPS.

[Sovery_Simple]

My only real complaint at this moment is that you are "double dipping" penalties on ECM and JJ mechs. Possibly even triple dipping. My example is the Cicada 3M, it only exists in it's current tier because it has ecm, so it loses one tier of perks (so an entire perk for being a tier higher), then you mean to tell us it is going to lose a SECOND tier of perks because it has ecm, which is what got it where it was to begin with. So now it's looking at -5% and -2 perks, effectively making it.... worse than everything else that is getting buffed? You're moving these mechs down in viability, not up, when you do this. Recognize the role that the ECM and/or JJ's play in the mechs current tiering.

My suggestion would be to keep their current tier's % effectiveness, but give them a quirk -related- to their JJ's, or their ECM. Perhaps make brawlers or whatnot turn faster when in the air, so they can jump turn better, or give skirmishers (or support) some of their lost "oomph" back to their vertical thrust. Maybe the Cicada will have a larger jamming radius (since it's a light hunter) on it's ecm, or you could give it a larger ECM bubble.

The reason is that way you "take a quirk away" in the current sense, because they aren't getting + armor or -TTK on enemy mechs (cooldown, heat gen), but they are still getting a perk for their intended role.

Chrona, on 18 October 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

As people above me said - the weapon-specific quirks are just plain BAD. Most Jester players probably forsake the LLasers for PPCs or something. You're restricting variety. A much better way to go about this would be...

Let's take the Hunchback as an example. HBK-4G is a brawler, 4H is a skirmisher. How do we distinguish the two? Very simple: buff torso twist, torso yaw and general nimbleness on the 4G, give the 4H ballistic cooldown and range buffs. Percentual. Juuuust an example.

HBK's are generally nimble enough. If anything, you'd give the velocity to the 4H since he's fighting farther away, and focus more on cooldowns for the 4G, since he's stuck in the fight, and that split second could save him vs that enemy jager reloading before him. But that's neither here nor there.

[Void Angel]

A contrary argument would be that ECM and Jump Jets are a force multiplier for any 'Mech that equips them, so you're getting more out of the quirks that you do get, even "missing" one. But time will tell, and remember - these are all subject to change in the future.

[Sovery_Simple]

Void Angel, on 18 October 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

A contrary argument would be that ECM and Jump Jets are a force multiplier for any 'Mech that equips them, so you're getting more out of the quirks that you do get, even "missing" one. But time will tell, and remember - these are all subject to change in the future.

Take the ECM off and tell me if it feels as good as an A variant. Go ahead, I can wait.

The change in the future part is something that we hope to correct now ;3

Edited by Whoops, 18 October 2014 - 05:39 PM.

[Void Angel]

That's... exactly my point - that ECM makes a huge difference in the effectiveness of any 'mech. Thus, the presence of that system will help your quirks as well as the base chassis performance. This may well be enough to make up for the quirk difference. It's true that the Cicada 3M will get 4 quirks, while the 2A will get 5 (and that the others will get 6 and 7, depending on tier) - but it doesn't follow that the multiplicative impact of ECM and/or Jump Jets will not balance out the loss of a single quirk relative to tier level. You have to actually deal with that argument if you want to be taken seriously.

PS: Of course we hope that the balance comes out well - though you will be very disappointed in life if you expect one fix to solve a problem forever. However, this is a fallacious statement - since the point of contention was my playing Devil's Advocate by offering an objection to your reasoning that ECM/jump jets taking a quirk slot wouldn't get us to that destination. Effectively, you said, "we have to take my route to our destination instead of another route, because we agree on the destination." Peruse this List of Fallacies and tell me which ones you committed - don't worry; I can wait.