1430 replies to this topic

[Hospy]

IraqiWalker, on 13 October 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

Still better options than the BK. Which can only do energy. The one thing where the IS loses.

It is also the one thing IS heavies don't currently have available.

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The awesome is a comparable mech to the BK, in almost every aspect except the 5 ton weight difference, and the fact that the BK just might be slimmer than it (not that hard to achieve since there entire continents slimmer than the Awesome).

The Awesome is brought down by the fact that it is an assault where it gets lumped in with the big boys, and that it is extremely wide. The Black Knight would not have either of those drawbacks.

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As for the Grasshopper, unlike the CTF-3D, the ONLY variant that can jump (a big part of the reason why it's competitive and dominated exceedingly during the PPC AC5 poptart days) out of all the cataphracts, the GHR's variants are all equipped with JJs.

I don't see what this is arguing for given that two of the Grasshoppers are functionally identical, while the third variant swaps the missile for an energy hardpoint.

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Basically, you can have a laservomit mech that is land-bound, and most likely very wide, or one that does lasers, plus missiles, plus JJs. The mobility difference helps a LOT.

One of these is already in the game, and one of these isn't.

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What are you talking about? Boating missiles is what the Orion is good at? Have you tried brawling? The Orion is a monster at brawling.

AC20+SRMs+MLs. Go smack ever mech you see on the nose, and watch them die horribly quickly. Only the V, and VA are good missile boats. However, ALL Orions are great brawlers.

But it can't boat lasers.

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At the end of the day, the choice is do I get a laser boat with JJs, or a laser boat without JJs, and there's nothing new that the BK brings into the game, that the GHR doesn't do as well, plus at least one missile hardpoint.

There is no IS heavy currently that can tote eight lasers while being near the top of its weight class.

[Kazuki Otori]

4 jump jets just doesn't do as much in this game as it should. On the tabletop the grasshopper is a beast because it can jump and over enemies and shoot them in the back, also it is amazing at melee combat, but we do not have melee combat if we did I would still be pushing for the Axman....

[NocturnalBeast]

Come on guys, we need more votes for the Black Knight! Smash the bug!

[Troopwe]

IraqiWalker, on 13 October 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

Still better options than the BK. Which can only do energy. The one thing where the IS loses.

What are you talking about? IS loose on pretty much any weapon category. your point?

Edited by Troopwe, 13 October 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Oh, for pete's sake.

[White Bear 84]

TexAss, on 13 October 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

I am happy to see that this game has nearly 5000 forum users (albeit probably a lot dupes)

Nope. You can only vote once.

Think the devs had this posted all over twitter, reddit and FB so it reached as many people as possible.. .then spreads through word of mouth etc, only a small fraction of the player base still.. ..but a reasonable number for the game forum!

[DarkonFullPower]

White Bear 84, on 13 October 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

Nope. You can only vote once.

One vote per account. He means people making dupe accounts to get more votes in.
Maybe, but I doubt this vote is THAT important to most.

Edited by DarkonFullPower, 13 October 2014 - 03:38 PM.

[White Bear 84]

DarkonFullPower, on 13 October 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

One vote per account. He means people making dupe accounts to get more votes in. Maybe, but I doubt this vote is THAT important to most.

I getcha..

[IraqiWalker]

Hospy, on 13 October 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

It is also the one thing IS heavies don't currently have available.

Which the Grasshopper can offer in a better package since it does the same thing PLUS JJs. At this point we're just running in circles. Literally anything the BK can do, the GHR can do, plus JJs. Yeah it has 6 energy hardpoints at least, instead of 8 off the bat, but at it has mobility, and extra weapons, and the ability to zombie, all the while jumping around the field instead of being stuck on land, and incapable of spreading damage well. (mechs with JJs can tank better)

Hospy, on 13 October 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

The Awesome is brought down by the fact that it is an assault where it gets lumped in with the big boys, and that it is extremely wide. The Black Knight would not have either of those drawbacks.

No, it would just be competing against strong clan mechs, in the one field where they dominate, lasers+mobility. At least get a mech that can stand a chance, the BK just has lasers, that's it. While the GHR has lasers plus mobility, so it's at least at near equal ground, instead of being flat out inferior.

Hospy, on 13 October 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

I don't see what this is arguing for given that two of the Grasshoppers are functionally identical, while the third variant swaps the missile for an energy hardpoint.

you keep bringing up the CTF-3D and you don't seem to realize that the 3D is just one variant of the chassis, while the GHR's variants all, can do what the 3D does, possibly better considering that every single variant is going to be jump capable.

Hospy, on 13 October 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

One of these is already in the game, and one of these isn't.

Yeah, the laser boat with JJs, you know, the one that is clearly better than the laser boat with no JJs.

Hospy, on 13 October 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

But it can't boat lasers.

Who's talking about boating lasers for those? You mentioned that the Orions are only good at boating LRMs, which is false (only 2 variants can, and the Orion is hands down better as a brawler).

Hospy, on 13 October 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

There is no IS heavy currently that can tote eight lasers while being near the top of its weight class.

True, but that's not what we need, you keep missing the point that the IS doesn't just need an IS heavy with lasers, we need an IS heavy with lasers, and mobility, allowing it to contest clan heavies. I'm sorry, but hands down, the GHR is the better choice for this.

Troopwe, on 13 October 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

What are you talking about? IS loose on pretty much any weapon category. your point?

What are you talking about? LRMs, and Ballistics are clear wins for the IS.

DarkonFullPower, on 13 October 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

One vote per account. He means people making dupe accounts to get more votes in.
Maybe, but I doubt this vote is THAT important to most.

Poll manipulation is also a ban-able offense.

[Almeras]

I started with grasshopper but switch to BK. JJ's just aren't the must have any more the +30ish bonus too armour BK will have will be welcome as well as the 5tons more of weight

Both are kind of DOA since IS medium lasers suck compared to Clan and every other longer range laser suffers ghost heat. I'd rather the hammer hands and just fudge 3 variants.

[Belorion]

I will say if the BK contains advanced electronics (ecm) I might be more inclined to lean that way. However, we just don't know at this point.

We will get both at some point anyway.

[Troopwe]

IraqiWalker, on 13 October 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

What are you talking about? LRMs, and Ballistics are clear wins for the IS.

How is that? Are IS LRM and ballistics better because they are more heavy take more slots? Are IS LRM better because they DON´t do DMG on min range? ARe IS ballistics better because they have LESS ammo/t than Clan ammo?
How is this a win for IS?

Edited by Troopwe, 13 October 2014 - 05:00 PM.

[Belorion]

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Thanks for your vote.

I think we have our winner(s) - can't really go wrong with either.


Will come down certain game design X-factors likely.

This was Russ at the end of last poll. Most likely this poll will end much the same.

Edited by Belorion, 13 October 2014 - 04:59 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Troopwe, on 13 October 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

How is that? Are IS LRM and ballistics better because they are more heavy take more slots? Are IS LRM better because they DON´t do DMG on min range? ARe IS ballistics better because they have LESS ammo/t than Clan ammo?
His is this a win for IS?

IS LRMs are better because they spread less damage. IS ballistics are better with the FLD (no burst fire), they pay for these by being heavier.

IS ballistics DO NOT have less ammo per ton.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

IraqiWalker, on 13 October 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

What are you talking about? LRMs, and Ballistics are clear wins for the IS.

And neither the BK or Grasshopper can mount them except one with A hardpoint in the head.

So what it really comes down to is 6 Energy and JJs vs 8 Energy, or 2 Medium Lasers vs JJ exploit. They will have the same speed and turn/twist profile as well as similar physical profiles. So that is really all it boils down to with comparing loadouts.

I just want to point this out, the Grasshopper isn't comparable to the CTF-3D since the main draw of the CTF-3D is the mix of ballistic and energy hardpoints as well as the JJs. Without any ballistic hardpoints the Grasshopper will never compete with the CTF-3D.

[FupDup]

Troopwe, on 13 October 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

How is that? Are IS LRM and ballistics better because they are more heavy take more slots? Are IS LRM better because they DON´t do DMG on min range? ARe IS ballistics better because they have LESS ammo/t than Clan ammo?
His is this a win for IS?

IS LRMs fire their missiles in a single glob, which helps them penetrate AMS and they are more likely to all hit (spread out volley of Clan Lurms gives the target more time to evade). Clan Lurms are geared towards being versatile (easier to fit backup guns, can do low damage up close) and IS Lurms are more specialized for bombarding.

IS ballistics are pinpoint projectiles, compared to bursts of Clan ACs and UACs. Also, Clan ballistics don't actually get more ammo per ton. Each "shot" represents a full burst, so divide the number of "shots" by the length of the burst. For example, the Clan UAC/20 lists 35 shots, but since each burst is 5 projectiles that gives you 7 total volleys, the same as an IS AC/20.

[Hospy]

Yeah, there's not much point of extending this discussion. Neither of us are going to budge and at this point it's a waste of time.

I just hope this thread isn't removed from the forums so when the Grasshopper is released, we can relive this thread to see what people thought it would be compared to what we get.

[Troopwe]

FupDup, on 13 October 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

IS LRMs fire their missiles in a single glob, which helps them penetrate AMS and they are more likely to all hit (spread out volley of Clan Lurms gives the target more time to evade). Clan Lurms are geared towards being versatile (easier to fit backup guns, can do low damage up close) and IS Lurms are more specialized for bombarding.

IS ballistics are pinpoint projectiles, compared to bursts of Clan ACs and UACs. Also, Clan ballistics don't actually get more ammo per ton. Each "shot" represents a full burst, so divide the number of "shots" by the length of the burst. For example, the Clan UAC/20 lists 35 shots, but since each burst is 5 projectiles that gives you 7 total volleys, the same as an IS AC/20.

Clan LRM also have a lower firing arc, making it possible to fire them without having a lock.

Clan Ballistics may spread more, but due to the burst they also create more screenshake.

And Clan laser generate more heat and have a longer beamduration, also resulting in a spread of DMG, just as clan Balistics

Edited by Troopwe, 13 October 2014 - 05:25 PM.

[Troopwe]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 October 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

IS ballistics DO NOT have less ammo per ton.

Yes THEY HAVE. It is just due to the nature of firing, the DMG/ton of ammo is more or less the same.

[FupDup]

Troopwe, on 13 October 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

And Clan laser generate more heat and have a longer beamduration, also resulting in a spread of DMG.

However, Clan lasers have drastically lower tonnage than ballistics, and they hit their target instantly instead of requiring a projectile travel speed. DoT lasers > DoT ballistics outside of outlier cases (i.e. 6 UAC/5 Dire Whale).