439 replies to this topic

[Chronojam]

I'd like to make a modest proposal. Remove the Stalker from the game entirely. That would immediately get rid of the 6PPC Stalker threat, which was (and remains) the critical impetus for Ghost Heat. After all, that's the rationalization PGI has used on the forum, on Twitter, and even today on the Twitch town hall.

Let's look at the advantages of removing the Stalker from the game over Ghost Heat. Removing an entire mech to "solve" 6PPC Stalkers would:

• Take no programmer assets, allowing mech quirks to be added sooner
  
• Require no balance changes, resulting in fewer variables to manage
  
• Have no impact on close-range and DPS-focused builds
  
• Not invalidate counter-sniper large laser builds
  
• No risk of unintuitive "40LRMs are cooler than 30LRMs" behavior
  
• No need to use third-party website calculators
  
• Bypass need to rationalize AC/2 ghost heat chainfire glitch as addressing imagined "griefing"
  
• Never worry about finding a purpose for the worthless Stalker 4N variant

Killing the 6PPC Stalker was super important, enough to justify the side effects. After all, we all recognize that Ghost Heat, by its design intent, purposely reduces player agency; it actively reduces build variety by making several builds less viable.

We all recognize that, mechanically, Ghost Heat did absolutely nothing to impact the dominant 2PPC1Gauss metagame loadout(a popular build compatible with many jump-sniping chassis variants).

We all recognize that "laserdrill" builds used to counter instantaneous, pinpoint-damage builds (relying on PPCs, Gauss Rifles, and Autocannons) and jumpsnipers were directly impacted by the "2" limit on large lasers for Ghost Heat. This reduced playstyle options and hard counters for long-range high-pinpoint builds

We all recognize that Ghost Heat impacted brawlers and mechs that relied on sustained DPS, such as the Swayback, or SRM-heavy builds. This reduced playstyle options and soft counters for long-range high-pinpoint builds.



To conclude:

Outright removing the Stalker chassis from the game to "solve" the 6PPC Stalker would have had much less negative impact across the game than implementing Ghost Heat did. Ponder this for a moment.

But maybe, we should all realize that the 6PPC Stalker is a red herring used to justify an opaque, poorly-communicated mechanic that punishes a number of stock builds, paid Hero Mechs, and hard/soft counters for the dominant competitive builds to which Ghost Heat did absolutely nothing.

Edited by Chronojam, 02 October 2014 - 06:29 PM.

[Mothykins]

9. PPC. DIRE. WOLF.

[FupDup]

7 PPC Buttmaster would "replace" it. And/or a Dire Whale with any number of CERPPCs. The Banshee 3M could also fit the bill...

...Yeah I think it's time we found a solution to the real problem rather than the symptoms. heat does the latter (as you already know).

[Xarian]

OP: it is no longer 2013

[White Bear 84]

Not to mention the logistical challenge of refunding everyone that bought the mech with MC, those that bought it with C-Bills, refund all the hero mechs, garage bays, skill points etc etc.

Then there is the cost of constructing the mechs in the first place - removing the mech would = wasted funds

And of course, many many many players would not be happy with this.

Chances of this happening are pretty much 0.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Or. Lets think of a better idea, instead of removing one of the Inner Spheres arguably better Assaults.

[Redshift2k5]

Having to use more than one weapon group or to stagger fire is not a "punishment".

Nobody likes getting shot in the face by 6 PPCs, 2 pinpoint AC20s, nine medium lasers, or any of a large number of other huge boated alpha builds.

[Koniving]

Chronojam, on 02 October 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

But maybe, we should all realize that the 6PPC Stalker is a red herring used to justify an opaque, poorly-communicated mechanic that punishes a number of stock builds, paid Hero Mechs, and hard/soft counters for the dominant competitive builds to which Ghost Heat did absolutely nothing.

8 PPC Battlemaster.
9 ER PPC Dire Wolf.
4 PPC Cicada.
5 PPC Blackjack.
3 PPC Jenner.
6 PPC Hunchback.

Need I go on?

A simpler solution is set threshold to 30. Lock it.

So instead of 10 DHS on a 250 engine = 30+20 = 50 threshold + 2/sec cooling... which at elites is 60 threshold and 2.3/sec cooling... it'd be 30 threshold and 2/sec cooling to after elites 36 threshold and 2.3/sec cooling meanwhile 20 DHS would be 30 to 36 threshold depending on elites and 4 to 4.6/sec cooling. That's with current elites and what they do and the restoration of all DHS = 0.2/sec (2 per 10 seconds) as is proper.

This way the most that can be fired at once is 3 standard or 2 ER PPCs. Without elites, instant shutdown. With elites, shutdown depends on the map. Of course, while it's impossible to fire 2 ER PPCs at once without elites if you want to avoid shutdown, just like in Battletech you can spam out 4 ER PPCs with a Warhawk in 10 seconds and not shutdown, despite each ER PPC being 15 heat (out of 30 threshold so 50%).

Edited by Koniving, 02 October 2014 - 06:46 PM.

[ApolloKaras]

I think a few missed the point of the OP lol.

[Kiiyor]

Cavale, on 02 October 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

9. PPC. DIRE. WOLF.

LOL

/thread

[Mawai]

6 PPC Stalker was just one of the configurations that were causing a problem. PGI went after boating in general with ghost heat.

2 AC20 generates significant ghost heat.
7 or more ML.
3 or more PPC
3 or more LL/LPL

Same with SRMs, LRMs and other weapon systems.

Ghost heat affects them all and effectively reduces the number that can be fired simultaneously in quick succession.

Removing the Stalker from the game would do absolutely nothing towards resolving the problem since it has nothing to do with the specific mechs but to the effectiveness of boating weapon systems ... particularly PP FLD.

[Naduk]

Ghost heat does exactly what it intended to do
6 ppc stalkers were only the face of the problem
If pgi nerfed the ppc alone boaters would just move onto the next mech/weapon system (see 6xuac5 direwolf)
Ghost heat solves the issue perfectly, it does not flat out stop boating but makes you pay for the power with need for more heat sinks &/or high skill

The only reason it gets called ghost heat is the system was not explained when building a mech
Its now explained in mech lab perfectlyperfectly

Honestly the only change ghost heat needs bitchin betty to tell you "heat spike detected" when ever you trigger it

[Kiiyor]

With gentle finesse, Stalkerdude coaxed his crosshairs until they pointed just over the heart of his target. Muttering a final prayer to the gods of convergence, he squeezed the trigger. Half a heartbeat later, 6 recently buffed azure blobs of death screamed out over the landscape and impacted spectacularly in the general area he was aiming at. With a comically large hole in its chest, the enemy Hunchback toppled slowly to the ground.

Stalkerdude cheered jubilantly as the sudden heatspike caused the paint to peel from his mech. A heartbeat later, the crippling heat overwhelmed the piteous attempt at containment made by his not-quite-double heat sinks, and his giant walking phallus offered one final whining groan before it shut down... as Stalkerdude knew it would.

You can't be a member of the hexa club without being prepared.

First things first; extinguisher. Most hexa pilots panicked the first time they caught fire, but for Stalker dude it was old-hat.

With a resigned sigh, Stalkerdude then flipped the catch on his harness and reached for the duffel he had packed earlier. Passport, spare clothes, three days of food and water were all as he left them, but he checked them again anyway out of habit.

Stepping to the rear of his cockpit, he threw the internal locks on his boarding hatch, and stepped out into outside air that was still oppressively warm despite the near freezing ambient temperatures. Careful to avoid direct contact with any still glowing surfaces, he gingerly made his way down the boarding ladder on his mech and stepped off, his boots crunching through sand that had been blast heated to glass, or 'Alpha glass' as his fellow hexa pilots referred to it.

Any other pilot in the same situation would likely have run sprinting for cover at that stage, as the battle still raged fiercely around him, but Stalkerdude was more than familiar with this kind of danger. Familiar enough to have bred contempt for it. Whistling a jaunty tune he had picked up after his last alpha strike, he set off in a bee line towards the spaceport his lance had arrived at only hours before.

The return trip took three days, but he wasn't in a hurry. He passed the time on his trek using his ancient six shooter to fill the local wildlife with holes, fantasising that the almost-squirrels he was dispatching were goons, and cheering in particular delight whenever he managed to bring down any of the local bird life. "EAT LEAD, LOWTAX!" he would cheer, then chuckle at his own cleverness.

Eventually, he walked into the spaceport, bypassing the front desk, as he had purchased his ticket in advance. He was excited; it was a long time since he'd last been to Solaris.

Months passed, and turned into years. Eventually though, his chrono beeped at him, telling him it was time. So he returned.

He traced a return path that almost exactly traced his boot prints from before. He was mildly surprised to see that some of the bird carcasses remained. Big suckers, he thought, but seeing their bones still made him chuckle.

All too soon, he was back at the foot of his mech, with the original battle still bizarrely raging around him. He tucked a picture into his pocket, and as he began to climb, the faces of his new children and beautiful wife warmed him almost as much as the still hot armor plating on his mech.

Settling into his command couch, he fastened his harness just as ol' Betty informed him that heat was back below shutdown levels, and settled his mind back into war mode as his displays flickered to life around him.

An instant after his HUD appeared a priority target was designated; there was a Centurion less than four hundred meters from him, STANDING STILL. Mentally chastising himself for using capital letters (even in his own head), he nonetheless coaxed his crosshairs into place, a familiar excitement building in him as he took half a breath and held it before he gently squeezed the trigger...

And missed.

With a dramatic sigh, he rolled his eyes (which is difficult to do when their moisture has been flash-evaporated) and reached for his duffel again. He had heard that Luthien was lovely this time of year.

[Chronojam]

Shar Wolf, on 02 October 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

Awesome
Battlemaster
Stalker
Banshee
Direwolf

All have variants capable of mounting 6+ PPC

Yes!

Let us remove almost half the assault mechs in the game!

Shar Wolf, I'm glad you spoke up, because you help us segue into a number of good points!

Ghost Heat rolled out in July 2013. The Battlemaster, Banshee, and Direwolf did not appear until 2014, long after Ghost Heat's release. But, let's put that aside because it's a lot more interesting to talk about the Awesome.

The Awesome rolled out in July 2012. There was hardly any complaint of "6PPC Awesomes" for the year leading up to Ghost Heat.

That's suspicious, isn't it? Doesn't that make you suddenly wonder, "Hey, what happened there?" It's not coincidence that the Awesome was very popular as a brawler during the early periods. It's not coincidence that the Stalker, not any other chassis, became the popular 6PPC platform.

Now, I'm not going to spell out everything that's going on in this thread for you. That would ruin the fun. I'm going to let you make the realizations you need to make on your own (hopefully).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Saxie, on 02 October 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

I think a few missed the point of the OP lol.

The fact he started it with "a modest proposal" was a bit of a giveaway...

[Chronojam]

Koniving, on 02 October 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

8 PPC Battlemaster.
9 ER PPC Dire Wolf.
4 PPC Cicada.
5 PPC Blackjack.
3 PPC Jenner.
6 PPC Hunchback.

Need I go on?

[goes on with well reasoned math]

Oh, dear. It appears that, perhaps, 6PPC Stalker isn't the problem. Perhaps 6PPC or Stalker aren't the issue at all.

So, let me get this straight, Koniving. Not only is removing the Stalker less damaging than Ghost Heat, but you've got some well reasoned ideas about how we can address the perceived issues without the need to either remove an entire mech (which is, again, less damaging to gameplay and introduces less design complexity than Ghost Heat) or introduce an obscure punishment system that is poorly explained and requires third party sites to understand.

I think you may be on to something here.

[Chronojam]

Mawai, on 02 October 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

6 PPC Stalker was just one of the configurations that were causing a problem. PGI went after boating in general with ghost heat.

2 AC20 generates significant ghost heat.
7 or more ML.
3 or more PPC
3 or more LL/LPL

Same with SRMs, LRMs and other weapon systems.

Ghost heat affects them all and effectively reduces the number that can be fired simultaneously in quick succession.

Removing the Stalker from the game would do absolutely nothing towards resolving the problem since it has nothing to do with the specific mechs but to the effectiveness of boating weapon systems ... particularly PP FLD.

Very weird, isn't it, that 2 AC/2 and 2 AC/20 will both promptly overheat a mech. But, the AC/20 is so much larger, isn't it?

Very weird, isn't it, that launching 30 LRMs will generate more heat than launching 40 LRMs. That seems a bit counterintuitive, doesn't it? Wouldn't you expect 33% more heat from 33% more missiles?

Very weird, isn't it, that a whopping "2" Large Lasers is considered the verge of unacceptable boating despite its damage-over-time nature. I mean, 2x Gauss is 6DPS, hitting out to 2KM.

That's the same as 3 Large Laser (unacceptable boating!) which hit out to 0.9KM but must keep their beam on-target for one second to achieve maximum damage, and despite being lighter, every Large Laser needs 17 heat sinks to remain stable -- heatsink weight alone that rivals the 2x Gauss and its ammo before considering the weight of the lasers. Oh, that's 17 heat sinks assuming Ghost Heat doesn't exist Otherwise you face a penalty, or must hold on target for two seconds to hit the same damage numbers.

It's almost as if "boating" is a nebulous concept that's not actually the problem

[Mothykins]

We all know that the real issue is Dual Gauss Setups though. Or Dual Gauss, Dual ERPPC Dires? Even at 36 threshold, that's well in tolerance, and a really really not fun thing to walk in front of.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Cavale, on 02 October 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

We all know that the real issue is Dual Gauss Setups though. Or Dual Gauss, Dual ERPPC Dires? Even at 36 threshold, that's well in tolerance, and a really really not fun thing to walk in front of.

We also know that Gauss as a pinpoint no heat alpha weapon was a bad idea as well. So why not give the ACs less heat and the Gauss more heat.....

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 02 October 2014 - 07:17 PM.

[Karamarka]

I think most people in this thread have a serious problem with understanding what they are reading.

Edited by Karamarka, 02 October 2014 - 07:14 PM.