439 replies to this topic

[Sergeant Random]

I need context!!!!

@#$*&€£%!!!! (Sigh)

Havent watched the townhall yet. (I'm in a different timezone). And no summaries available yet.

The history on the Stalker's development is interesting though.

Edit: what the fudge? "A Modest Proposal" is actually about eating babies so that the population of Ireland can control poverty? Sick.

Edited by Sergeant Random, 02 October 2014 - 09:17 PM.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 02 October 2014 - 08:53 PM, said:

Let this settle in before we talking about the disaster known as the stock Masakari-Prime...

Was the Stock Masakari prime intended to fire 4 x PPCs simultaneously three or four times inside the space of a 10s round?

If you stagger fire 2 PPCs followed by 2 more 0.5s later - you suffer 0 heat scale, and have had to expose yourself for less time than any other energy weapon in the entire clan arsenal.



That doesn't mean it's a build that makes total sense in the game, but that's more an issue with heat dissipation rules as opposed to ghost heat.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 October 2014 - 09:03 PM.

[CocoaJin]

Kiiyor, on 02 October 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

With gentle finesse, Stalkerdude coaxed his crosshairs until they pointed just over the heart of his target. Muttering a final prayer to the gods of convergence, he squeezed the trigger. Half a heartbeat later, 6 recently buffed azure blobs of death screamed out over the landscape and impacted spectacularly in the general area he was aiming at. With a comically large hole in its chest, the enemy Hunchback toppled slowly to the ground.

Stalkerdude cheered jubilantly as the sudden heatspike caused the paint to peel from his mech. A heartbeat later, the crippling heat overwhelmed the piteous attempt at containment made by his not-quite-double heat sinks, and his giant walking phallus offered one final whining groan before it shut down... as Stalkerdude knew it would.

You can't be a member of the hexa club without being prepared.

First things first; extinguisher. Most hexa pilots panicked the first time they caught fire, but for Stalker dude it was old-hat.

With a resigned sigh, Stalkerdude then flipped the catch on his harness and reached for the duffel he had packed earlier. Passport, spare clothes, three days of food and water were all as he left them, but he checked them again anyway out of habit.

Stepping to the rear of his cockpit, he threw the internal locks on his boarding hatch, and stepped out into outside air that was still oppressively warm despite the near freezing ambient temperatures. Careful to avoid direct contact with any still glowing surfaces, he gingerly made his way down the boarding ladder on his mech and stepped off, his boots crunching through sand that had been blast heated to glass, or 'Alpha glass' as his fellow hexa pilots referred to it.

Any other pilot in the same situation would likely have run sprinting for cover at that stage, as the battle still raged fiercely around him, but Stalkerdude was more than familiar with this kind of danger. Familiar enough to have bred contempt for it. Whistling a jaunty tune he had picked up after his last alpha strike, he set off in a bee line towards the spaceport his lance had arrived at only hours before.

The return trip took three days, but he wasn't in a hurry. He passed the time on his trek using his ancient six shooter to fill the local wildlife with holes, fantasising that the almost-squirrels he was dispatching were goons, and cheering in particular delight whenever he managed to bring down any of the local bird life. "EAT LEAD, LOWTAX!" he would cheer, then chuckle at his own cleverness.

Eventually, he walked into the spaceport, bypassing the front desk, as he had purchased his ticket in advance. He was excited; it was a long time since he'd last been to Solaris.

Months passed, and turned into years. Eventually though, his chrono beeped at him, telling him it was time. So he returned.

He traced a return path that almost exactly traced his boot prints from before. He was mildly surprised to see that some of the bird carcasses remained. Big suckers, he thought, but seeing their bones still made him chuckle.

All too soon, he was back at the foot of his mech, with the original battle still bizarrely raging around him. He tucked a picture into his pocket, and as he began to climb, the faces of his new children and beautiful wife warmed him almost as much as the still hot armor plating on his mech.

Settling into his command couch, he fastened his harness just as ol' Betty informed him that heat was back below shutdown levels, and settled his mind back into war mode as his displays flickered to life around him.

An instant after his HUD appeared a priority target was designated; there was a Centurion less than four hundred meters from him, STANDING STILL. Mentally chastising himself for using capital letters (even in his own head), he nonetheless coaxed his crosshairs into place, a familiar excitement building in him as he took half a breath and held it before he gently squeezed the trigger...

And missed.

With a dramatic sigh, he rolled his eyes (which is difficult to do when their moisture has been flash-evaporated) and reached for his duffel again. He had heard that Luthien was lovely this time of year.

[Vassago Rain]

Ultimatum X, on 02 October 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

My understanding of Heat Scale was not that it was implemented to curb "big alphas" in a broad sense.

But that it was implemented to curb the simplest version of one-click, one weapon type (or similar enough to be almost the same) boated alphas.

So you would be allowed to combine different weapons, with different cooldowns, potentially different ranges and potentially different delivery mechanics, and instead forces different build directions as opposed to the ease of a 4x PPC stalker that doesn't need anything but heatsinks, and engine, and 1 mouse button.


Even now the Dual Gauss + Laser Spam DWF does not hit the same way that a quad or hexa PPC strike would.

The different beams have different ranges, often different burn times - is damage that can be spread and are being combined with Gauss which is on a different recycle with a different firing mechanic.



I don't think Heat Scale was the perfect solution, but I also don't think it was as big a deal as everyone goes on and on about.



Isn't a round of fire in TT 10s?

You can have, and stagger fire, quad PPCs right now, in less than 1/3rd that time.

10s is plenty of time, to use even 6 PPCs and suffer 0 heat scale.


So that doesn't punish "stock builds". They can still fire all of their weapons in well under 10s compared to stock TT firing times.

You can't ALPHA your entire loadout 4x in the space of 10s, but that's not what the Stock build was designed to do in the first place.

Ghost heat was implemented largely because REASONS, and as someone's pet project. It hasn't actually done anything, and never did anything.

Let me remind you of the dark days of gauss rifle+2 PPC jumpers. That lasted for most of 2013. What a great time it was, because we didn't have 6 PPC stalkers. Ghost heat clearly saved the game from getting boring there.

Oh, wait.

Also, back then, Paul decided that SRMs should do 0.5 and 1 damage per missile, depending on patch.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 02 October 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

Was the Stock Masakari prime intended to fire 4 x PPCs simultaneously three or four times inside the space of a 10s round?

If you stagger fire 2 PPCs followed by 2 more 0.5s later - you suffer 0 heat scale, and have had to expose yourself for less time than any other energy weapon in the entire clan arsenal.



That doesn't mean it's a build that makes total sense in the game, but that's more an issue with heat dissipation rules as opposed to ghost heat.

One aspect affects the other.

It's not as if 3 ERPPC builds are prominent these days (even when chain-firing to avoid Ghost Heat).

[Roadbeer]

Carry on, I like where this is going.

Where's the other Wolf? We need a discussion about opinions in this thread.

[Ultimax]

Vassago Rain, on 02 October 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

Ghost heat was implemented largely because REASONS, and as someone's pet project. It hasn't actually done anything, and never did anything.

Let me remind you of the dark days of gauss rifle+2 PPC jumpers. That lasted for most of 2013. What a great time it was, because we didn't have 6 PPC stalkers. Ghost heat clearly saved the game from getting boring there.

Oh, wait.

Also, back then, Paul decided that SRMs should do 0.5 and 1 damage per missile, depending on patch.

You can hold onto grudges forever if you like, and let mishaps in game development churn your stomach.

Or you can come to the terms with the fact that it is 2014, Gauss Rifle + 2x PPC jumpers are a thing of the past, and that SRMs do not do 0.5s and 1 damage per missile any more.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it did literally nothing.

When I build my mechs, if I had the option to slot 5x LLAS on a Stalker or whatever mech, and go to town for a total of dealing 45 damage for 35 heat - that's exactly what I would do because it is easy and efficient to run.


So you do have to build around it, which is what I think was the point - not stopping "big alphas".






My question still stands though:

Is a stock build in TT able to fire 9 MLAS alphas 3x in a row inside of 10s, or is a Masakari prime able to fire 4x PPCs alphas 3x in a row, inside of 10s?

Can a Nova fire 12 CERMLAS simultaneously, 3x in a row, inside of 10s in TT?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

A Masakari Prime with 20 stock true DHS should dissipate 40 to 44 heat over 10 seconds.

In MWO that is 34.0 to 37.4 heat dissipated over ten seconds without Efficiencies. Up to 39.1 to 43.01 dissipated on an Elited Masakari.

AFAIK, in TT firing all four ERPPCs would set it to 20 (60 heat minus 40) on the Heat Scale and it would have to make rolls for avoiding shutting down and an ammo explosion.

[Deathlike]

Roadbeer, on 02 October 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

Carry on, I like where this is going.

Where's the other Wolf? We need a discussion about opinions in this thread.

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I like it nice and quiet....

[Vassago Rain]

Ultimatum X, on 02 October 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

You can hold onto grudges forever if you like, and let mishaps in game development churn your stomach.

Or you can come to the terms with the fact that it is 2014, Gauss Rifle + 2x PPC jumpers are a thing of the past, and that SRMs do not do 0.5s and 1 damage per missile any more.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it did literally nothing.

When I build my mechs, if I had the option to slot 5x LLAS on a Stalker or whatever mech, and go to town for a total of dealing 45 damage for 35 heat - that's exactly what I would do because it is easy and efficient to run.


So you do have to build around it, which is what I think was the point - not stopping "big alphas".






My question still stands though:

Is a stock build in TT able to fire 9 MLAS alphas 3x in a row inside of 10s, or is a Masakari prime able to fire 4x PPCs alphas 3x in a row, inside of 10s?

Can a Nova fire 12 CERMLAS simultaneously, 3x in a row, inside of 10s in TT?

People don't 'build around' ghost heat. They simply don't use weapons that incur it. You seen the swarm of LBX5 daishis out there, or the twin goose, twin ER PPC ones?

What tabletop does here is, again, not useful to the discussion, because this is a robot shooting game, not a boardgame where you get to control 8-16 robots at a time.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 02 October 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

One aspect affects the other.

It's not as if 3 ERPPC builds are prominent these days (even when chain-firing to avoid Ghost Heat).

Chronojam has asserted it negatively affects stock builds, you stated that the Masakari prime has issues.


So please clarify, are the Masakari's issues due to ghost heat or are they due to heat dissipation?

My point is that the stock build is playable in this game, and that stock builds in TT can't fire their entire alpha 3x in the space of 10s.


You can fire all 4 of those CERPPCs inside of 10s, but does anything actually say you fire all of them instantly in 0.1s - or is a 0.5s stagger a reasonable approximation that allows you to run that stock build with 0 ghost heat?

[Bishop Steiner]

yawn. Broken record sounds just as boring in 2014 as it did in 2013. Get a new tune.

[Roadbeer]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 October 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

yawn. Broken record sounds just as boring in 2014 as it did in 2013. Get a new tune.

Edited by Roadbeer, 02 October 2014 - 09:23 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roadbeer, on 02 October 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

but of course, the guy that dissents must be rose colored glasses wearing white knight. New Ipod for you too, Beer.

Or maybe if people stopped getting butthurt whenever they get answers that don't fit their image of the world, and post a legit complaint, maybe it would be listened to.

WAIT!!!!
RED HERRING!!!! REASONS!!!!!

Winning?

[Ultimax]

Vassago Rain, on 02 October 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

People don't 'build around' ghost heat. They simply don't use weapons that incur it.

You really want to make this statement?

Do I need to bring up a stream of Jager in the solo queues with his 8 MLAS hunchie?

He does this amazing thing where he just like..doesn't fire all 8 of them every single time - he does fire all 8 when he has a clear opportunity and...the game goes on.


They didn't want to hard lock you from doing this (big single weapon alphas), they wanted to make it costly.

Vassago Rain, on 02 October 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

You seen the swarm of LBX5 daishis out there, or the twin goose, twin ER PPC ones?

Most of the LB5 Daishi's are chain firing them for the cockpit shake, not for some big deal alpha that only amounts to 30 damage anyway - not coincidentally the rough number where most identical weapon type alphas are limited before they hit ghost heat.

I already covered the dual gauss + dual CERPPCS in the large post you quoted.

They have different projectile speeds, different ranges, different firing cooldowns, and different firing mechanics.

In fact the projectile speed nerf to CERPPCs saw most of those builds drop off in favor of lasers - which are spread, and have long burn times.

Vassago Rain, on 02 October 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

What tabletop does here is, again, not useful to the discussion, because this is a robot shooting game, not a boardgame where you get to control 8-16 robots at a time.

Chronojam brought up stock builds.

So he's either concerned about them, or that's one of his red herrings.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 02 October 2014 - 09:28 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 02 October 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

You really want to make this statement?

Do I need to bring up a stream of Jager in the solo queues with his 8 MLAS hunchie?

He does this amazing thing where he just like..doesn't fire all 8 of them every single time.




Most of the LB5 Daishi's are chain firing them for the cockpit shake, not for some big deal alpha that only amounts to 30 damage anyway - not coincidentally the rough number where most identical weapon type alphas are limited before they hit ghost heat.

I already covered the dual gauss + dual CERPPCS in the large post you quoted.

They have different projectile speeds, different ranges, different firing cooldowns, and different firing mechanics.

In fact the projectile speed nerf to CERPPCs saw most of those builds drop off in favor of lasers - which are spread, and have long burn times.




Chronojam brought up stock builds.

So he's either concerned about them, or that's one of his red herrings.

or the ever popular 2x AC20 Jager?

[Kassatsu]

Ghost heat and ECM in MWO:


Not that I have any better ideas on what they could have done, or that it even matters - ECM and ghost heat are clearly some high-ranking PGI dev's pet project that can't be touched ever and balance changes have to work around them instead of addressing the core issues in any major way.

EDIT: Can we start a petition to run a test server that caps the heat limit at 30 (leave efficiencies though because WHY NOT GRIND MOAR) and return to stock TT values (not armor/hp) with proper 2.0 external DHS, while removing ghost heat entirely? Alternately... Give us proper convergence and turn off ghost heat on the test server, see what happens.

Edited by Kassatsu, 02 October 2014 - 09:33 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 02 October 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

My question still stands though:

Is a stock build in TT able to fire 9 MLAS alphas 3x in a row inside of 10s, or is a Masakari prime able to fire 4x PPCs alphas 3x in a row, inside of 10s?

Can a Nova fire 12 CERMLAS simultaneously, 3x in a row, inside of 10s in TT?

Neither the Nova Prime nor the Warhawk were able to fire their alpha without overheating badly in one turn.

It would be better if you compared stock mechs that are heat neutral in TT and then compared to MWO, like say building a quasi-AWS-9Q and comparing it to the Mad Dog C or JM6-DG (dual Gauss Jager).

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 02 October 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

Chronojam has asserted it negatively affects stock builds, you stated that the Masakari prime has issues.


So please clarify, are the Masakari's issues due to ghost heat or are they due to heat dissipation?

My point is that the stock build is playable in this game, and that stock builds in TT can't fire their entire alpha 3x in the space of 10s.


You can fire all 4 of those CERPPCs inside of 10s, but does anything actually say you fire all of them instantly in 0.1s - or is a 0.5s stagger a reasonable approximation that allows you to run that stock build with 0 ghost heat?

I shouldn't have used to Masakari, since that isn't actually the point.

Let's use the stock Awesome-8Q, since it's closer to the point in question.

Shooting 3 PPCs should generate 30 heat... and while I don't know the exact specifics or TT, just using the flat capacity of 30 (for MWO) should simply cause the mech to instantly shut down on occasion, due to movement and the environment being hot or cold. However, with Ghost Heat, we've got that 3 PPC on lockdown... instead of generating 30, we get 42.6... which is 12.6 above the normal value. Before we even want to discuss other factors... base heat containment is still @ 50 with a 250+ engine... guaranteeing that this shot will work w/o shutting down immediately. 3 PPCs is generally not practical these days (mostly due to the projectile nerf), but it is what it is. (Note: In MWO, the Awesome-8Q has a stock heat capacity of 58, allowing for the 3 PPCs to go off and still not shut down from Ghost Heat).

That doesn't ever quite explain its application with missiles... while boating 6 LRM5s on a Catapult-A1 NEVER generates Ghost Heat, 3 LRM10s (when alphaed) generates Ghost Heat anyways.... which is wholly inelegant. Suddenly, the number of missile hardpoints becomes more important because you can stack more LRM5s on top of a pair of LRM10s, LRM15s, or LRM20s... and avoid Ghost Heat... and this extends to SRMs as well, but that fuzzy math continues there...

If you're going to do heat penalties right, at the very least try not to cut the nose despite the face where some of the logic falls flat.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 October 2014 - 09:48 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 October 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

Or maybe if people stopped getting butthurt whenever they get answers that don't fit their image of the world, and post a legit complaint, maybe it would be listened to.

Or maybe, just maybe all the discussion on the topic has panned out, but since feedback is being REQUESTED again, your oh so witty "2013 asked for their topics back" post puts you in the butthurt miasma? Because, obviously not "everything is awesome"

The Hex-Stalker was an edge-case build, for which the 'reason' for voodoo maths was created, trashing various and sundry other builds and weapon systems, thus implementing an overwhelming WTF factor to the mechlab.

It's bad, and you should feel bad for accepting it.