21 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

So, as I understand it, the problem the devs run into with MASC is the speed it will take Lights to.

(Imagine 150kph mech pouring on an extra 50kph or so.. pretty well breaking the game with Desync and hitreg)

Idea:
With MASC: Lock the engine rating.

1: An IS mech with MASC would have its engine rating locked. It could switch to an XL for the weight savings if desired, but the rating would need to remain the same.
2: Possibly make it an upgrade, like DHS, but only available to mechs that actually have MASC. (Give them the ability to take it off)
2a: MASC is only an option if the Engine rating is the stock engine rating.
2b: If MASC is removed, the normal MWO engine upgrade rules apply.
3: This will not effect clan omnis..as they cannot change their engines regardless.


Example: Flea.
With MASC on it, it is restricted to its 120..putting it about 94kph (in MWO, I think)
It can upgrade to an XL in order for more firepower/armor, but cannot change the 120 rating.

With MASC removed: It gets its normal engine upgrade, or perhaps even the RVN-4X/2X treatment with special engine upgrade privileges.

----------------------------------------
Why, you ask?

First and foremost; to resolve most of the server issues with adding MASC, so we can have more mechs (Flea and Shadow Cat)
Second: To make MASC a choice. (Beyond risk to legs)
Without MASC, you just get your favorite mech (if Flea is indeed your favorite) and it acts like most other IS lights.
With MASC, the engine restriction allows you to pack on the firepower and armor for your weight, and in moments of need, a good burst of speed unbecoming of mech with that much firepower/armor.

This would still pretty much still leave out the Fire Moth, and the upcoming (3053) Fireball... but that cannot be helped until server restrictions improve.


Thoughts?

------------------------------------------
EDIT: Counter proposal from Kaeb- (Which I like better)

Instead of locking to the stock engine, limit the engine upgrade individually for the MASC equipped mechs to what would give you 171 with MASC.

(Still does not solve the issue of Fire Moth or upcoming Fireball.. but nothing short of server-client interaction improvement will allow those things in with MASC.)

Edited by Livewyr, 03 October 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I doubt anyone would pick MASC over a bigger engine on something like the Flea. You spend 1 ton and 1 slot for an item that gives you the ability to run at a 129.6 kph, which is slower than just about any other IS light, but only for short bursts, and each time you use it there's a chance you break your legs permanently (though PGI would probably make it a temporary thing).

In contrast, the Flea's max engine would probably be 170, if PGI keeps the formula consistent. This lets it run at 137.7 kph permanently and with no chance of immobilization. An XL 170 is only 3 tons heavier than an XL 120, but it comes with 2 internal heatsinks (true doubles to boot).

[LauLiao]

^This. If you can't go faster than any other mechs, there's no point to MASC except as a suicide, let's see if I can blow my own legs off button.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

I WANT MY FLEAS! If MASC is not an option give them JUMP JETS INSTEAD!
I want my fleas!

[Mechteric]

I think they should just introduce MASC for clan mechs to begin with (since clan lights are only as fast as mediums), though maybe only allow certain mechs to have MASC (Timberwolf clearly doesn't deserve it)

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I looked at MASC in relation to the Flea, depending on how the system gets implemented, starting with an engine cap of 155 or 160 would cap speed for that mech to 167.4 to 172.8.

The only headache is Speed Tweak, which should be redone, removed or restricted anyway.

This table in speed for a 20 ton mech, it even has TSM:


I had figured using MASC as a sort of 'sprint', and if the meter is exhausted the mech freezes in place until the meter begins to recharge allowing for the mech to move again.

And I'd see if the meter gets fully depleted then the legs lock up where the mech will stop moving until the meter begins to fill back up to keep it predictable.


And if MASC could be allowed to be equipped on other mechs weights, and we have the ~171 cap; this is the Engine Caps without Speed Tweak.

20 - 155 / 160 - 167.4 KPH to 172.8 KPH
25 - 195 / 200 - 168.5 KPH to 172.8 KPH
30 - 235 / 240 - 169.2 KPH to 172.8 KPH
35 - 275 / 280 - 169.7 KPH to 172.8 KPH
40 - 315 / 320 - 170.1 KPH to 172.8 KPH
45 - 355 / 360 - 170.4 KPH to 172.8 KPH
50 - 395 / 400 - 170.6 KPH to 172.8 KPH

The formulas I used to determine these speeds are:

Engine Rating divided by Mech Weight to get Walking MP. Then multipied Walking MP by 2 for MASC MP.

Next multiply MASC MP by 10.8 to get Speed in KPH.

So 155 / 20 = 7.75 7.75 x 2 = 15.5

15.5 x 10.8 = 167.4 KPH

Edited by Praetor Knight, 03 October 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[Tezcatli]

Give it to mediums! I want to fly!

[Kaeb Odellas]

A slightly better idea might be to limit engine rating while MASC is equipped to whatever rating will give you 171 kph when MASC is running. This would still probably be a raw deal for the Flea since an XL 170 weighs the same as an XL 160. You'd pay 1 slot and 1 ton to occasionally run 40 kph faster than you would otherwise, though at great risk to your survivability, and you run slower when not using it.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Kaeb Odellas, on 03 October 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

A slightly better idea might be to limit engine rating while MASC is equipped to whatever rating will give you 171 kph when MASC is running. This would still probably be a raw deal for the Flea since an XL 170 weighs the same as an XL 160. You'd pay 1 slot and 1 ton to occasionally run 40 kph faster than you would otherwise, though at great risk to your survivability, and you run slower when not using it.

I wouldn't mind using the original Engine Rating rules here for all mechs. So for example:



That could limit mechs using MASC to:

20 ton - 160 rating
25 ton - 200
30 ton - 240
35 ton - 280
40 ton - 320
45 ton - 360
50 ton - 400


And this could allow for mechs that had the Walking / Running MP rounding get a Speed Quirk using Stock Engines such as the AWS-8Q or the Atlas to go 54 KPH instead of 48.6 currently with a stock engine.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 03 October 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Zyllos]

There are two issues present with this:

• It doesn't fix the issues with mechs that default start with a high speed and have MASC.
  
• Slow mechs immediately die due to converged weapon fire.

I am unsure how you fix #1. It's either an engineering issue on networking, a gameplay mechanic to limit top end speeds, or make MASC just completely different.

Issue #2, will take a fundamental change that both PGI and the community has to accept. And this issue would be hardest to accept because it requires a change in allowing full, open customization and control of allowing a lot of weapons to hit a specific location easily. But I don't think this will change.

[Livewyr]

Kaeb Odellas, on 03 October 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

A slightly better idea might be to limit engine rating while MASC is equipped to whatever rating will give you 171 kph when MASC is running. This would still probably be a raw deal for the Flea since an XL 170 weighs the same as an XL 160. You'd pay 1 slot and 1 ton to occasionally run 40 kph faster than you would otherwise, though at great risk to your survivability, and you run slower when not using it.

True, that is better than the initial proposal. (And this is why I request thoughts.. )

[Nothing Whatsoever]

How about cap MASC's speed boost to the allowable speed, and compensate with other quirks from the amount of speed lost?

Firemoth would go 216 KPH on MASC use, so if that is capped to 171.1 KPH which is a loss of 44.9 KPH.

it could be a 26.24% speed loss, so a combination of quirks should be able to account for that percent.

[CocoaJin]

One of the benefits of MASC other than speed was how speed made it harder to be hit. I've suggested in the past that if MASC would cause mechs to break game engine limitations, they can make several concessions like a cap max speed, plus increased acceleration or a increase in the mech's max speed over specs(but not to exceed the absolute speed cap), etc, etc. But as part of the compromise, have MASC provide a damage resistance buff while it's active...but with the possibility of having a MASC failure that causes leg damage, a temporary crippled state in which you move slowly as if legged, plus a damage resistance de-buff...yeah, getting shot while experiencing a MASC should hurt bad.

Edited by CocoaJin, 03 October 2014 - 10:29 PM.

[Willard Phule]

What, it's not common knowledge that the engine can't render above 150kph anymore? That's why there won't be MASC in the game. Not until they figure out how to make the engine do it.

[Pjwned]

I like the idea actually, but as Kaeb pointed out it might not work out very well in some cases because of the wonky tonnage on lower rated engines.

I would like to see MASC be a thing, it'd be cool to give up some engine rating in order to have more tonnage for weapons and such but still have the ability to go extra fast when needed.

[BumbleBee]

Id be happy if it was disallowed on light Chassis' for the time being, but other weight classes could use it. Make it usable for MASC capable Mechs ONLY with balancing/unique to certain Mechs, and have it use a predefined torso slot similar to ECM.

As for its function, I'd like a toggle with a 3-4 second ramp up and ramp down to top speed, as a way to avoid issues with Mechs suddenly changing speed and throwing off hit detection. Give it an independent gauge similar to Jump Jets and if it gets into the red (maybe last 15%), you CAN keep going until the gauge is depleted, but you run the risk of a minor "Crit Chance" for leg actuator damage for each second, increasing in percentage as the gauge depletes.

Edited by BumbleBee, 04 October 2014 - 06:38 PM.

[Antonio]

Getting rid of the speed tweak perk could help.

[Zyllos]

Antonio, on 04 October 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

Getting rid of the speed tweak perk could help.

While I would be good with this, many others would not...

[Fooooo]

I guess its ok just to get masc into the game.
Its basically another form of an XL then somewhat as you can take a smaller engine for the same speed and gain tons.

From there they can eventually give it its proper functions.



I guess another way you could go about masc, although tons probably wouldn't like this as its changing lore.....

Make masc more an accel boost than a top speed increaser.

IE a flea at almost standstill using masc can accel to topspeed almost instantly. (maybe make it accel to speedcap then slowly degrade to the mechs current engines topspeed)

Same with an assault if it ever mounted a masc etc, it would accel very quickly meaning you could be backing away, twist a little then masc to accel forward quickly get behind some sort of cover or onto another side of a building etc etc.....

Maybe make it increase torso twist speed as well for a few seconds meaning youcould use it to defend as well etc.......

Obv would need to be some timer or penalty for overuse or something like normal masc has......


Still I wouldnt be against the OP's idea if it gets masc and the flea and others into the game for now...

[El Bandito]

CapperDeluxe, on 03 October 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

I think they should just introduce MASC for clan mechs to begin with (since clan lights are only as fast as mediums), though maybe only allow certain mechs to have MASC (Timberwolf clearly doesn't deserve it)

Yeah, let the Clan mechs with default MASC have them. That way we can get the Shadow Cat and Executioner.

Frack the Flea. Frack the Firemoth. This game can do just fine without those two--especially the joke of a Flea.
Clans still have the Arctic Cheetah for a fast Light with ECM and firepower, don't forget.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 October 2014 - 08:42 PM.