348 replies to this topic

[Pht]

RetroActive, on 03 October 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

I don't see the issue with pinpoint damage. Most pinpoint naysayers reference realism in their argument when nothing in this game is realistic.

Those who have been around since the beginning and who were in the closed beta know first-hand that it's the cause of the problems mwo has run into.

To start with, PGI had the weapons damag and armor/internal structure numbers close to or dead on stock. people died VERY VERY quickly. so they doubled external armor. people STILL died very quickly. So they doubled the internal numbers. Than they found that because they doubled the armor and internal numbers, the smaller weapons started to fall off, so they started to rebalance them (rate of fire tweak, for example. Triple in some cases I think). The use of the larger weapons to penetrate the larger armor/internal numbers (gauss, ppc) became a problem so they came in for major tweaking downwards to stop them from being SO prevalent. Than we got Ghost heat as an attempt to balance all weapons because there were things like 6 ppc stalkers and such, which gave rise to the birth of builds that "gamed" the ghost heat fix. Etc and so on.

MWO is where it is because PGI, for whatever reason, decided to go "instant pinpoint."

Quote

I would enjoy this game much less if my shots went somewhere other than where I aimed.

You do realize that the battlemech is actually what physically aligns the weapons to hit what it's pilot is tracking, right? We know how capable battlemechs are, and we know it in hard numbers that are actually usable.

I find it strange that people either ignore or discount the 'mech's ability to handle the weapons mounted in it. Knowing how well a 'mech can handle any given situation and get it's weapons aligned to what it's pilot is tracking with the crosshairs on their cockpit hud has ALWAYS been a huge part of what piloting a fictional battlemech is all about.

[Dirkdaring]

Your driving a massive several story high mech that has a fusion reactor, can send ammo from is legs up to its arms magically and can run full speed in water without slowing down. Screw your realism and recoil. No offense.

[FupDup]

There are convergence solutions other than ice cream cones of fire. The epitome of all examples: http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

Also, even if we did get ice cream cones, why do people keep asking for speed to be factor? Normal first person shooters don't have different tonnage classes. Normal shooters have everybody going at the same speed, with fairly similar loadouts. Mechwarrior has some mechs that are designed to sacrifice armor and firepower in favor of speed, however. And if we had speed-based ice cream cones, then those mechs who sacrifice armor and firepower to gain speed would also need to sacrifice their speed in order to effectively kill things...and gain nothing else in return.

A heavy or assault mech going at a lower speed than full throttle loses only a little bit of survivability; a light or medium under full throttle becomes fodder. The Dire Whale in particular is so damned slow that it loses almost nothing by standing still for a moment. The vast, vast, vast majority of builds exploiting convergence have been over 60 tons ever since the advent of ballistic HSR and the Highlander. If you insist upon ice cream cones, don't make them based on movement speed please.

[Theodore42]

A cone of fire has to be right out. It might sound good but it can't be applied in a way that solves anyone's issues:

A cone has to be inaccurate enough to negate pinpoint damage at 20m. The cone has to be small enough such that an ac2 (for example) can hit a target at its maximum range of 1500m. A cone big enough to even marginally negate pinpoint damage at 20m wouldn't even come close to being able to hit anything at 1500m, or 1000m, or even 200m for that matter. All long range weapons become useless.

Any accuracy or recoil based solution would have this problem UNLESS the recoil increases with firing and / or speed. However, this solution ADDS to the skill requirements, and your "pixel point and click adventure" becomes a meta game in and of itself (the opposite of what the lamenters want).

Can we all agree that the cone of fire is not a feasible solution? It's simply a matter of geometry.

The solution has to be in convergence.

I would be in favor of a manual convergence EXCEPT that the pilot already has enough on his plate. MWO has a steep enough learning curve so let's not add to it.

The best solution I can think of is to make a minimum convergence distance, maybe 20m or so. But still, that isn't going to help against a Dire Wolf alpha-striking your side torso at 20m.

Another solution I would like, but I bet 90% of players would hate, is to have the torso twist itself be inaccurate. If you turn the torso really fast and stop on a dime, your torso and crosshairs shake for a moment, like hydraulic machinery.
It would be like if you stand on a car's bumper, and the springs sink down, and you get off, and the springs come back up, and the shocks keep it steady and put it right back in place. But if you JUMP off your bumper, the springs may cause your car to "wobble" before they reach an equilibrium as the shocks stabilize everything into place.
Does that analogy make sense?

This would mean you have to ease out of flick shots before you fire. But even as I write this, I've already thought of a meta of flicking the crosshairs across the target and shooting accurately as a matter of timing. Again, benefiting the "no-skill pixel point-and-click adventurers."

But this would be something more for a full blown mech simulator on a DCS level, which will probably never happen Also, programing that might be hard.

Some of the solutions earlier in the thread SOUND complicated, but I think they may work out IF they can be implemented in an organic way.

Edited by Theodore42, 03 October 2014 - 08:11 PM.

[Tekadept]

pinpoint will never be resolved, because working as intended.

[Kristen Redmond]

Anyone who has a problem with accurate weaponry in a game where you have a crosshair, needs to go and play Mechcommander.

I don't want my weapons spraying around like they are being used by the cross-eyed Mogwai in gremlins 2, I want them to go where I fire them.

[Belorion]

FupDup, on 03 October 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

There are convergence solutions other than ice cream cones of fire. The epitome of all examples: http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

Terrible idea, and I can't get behind it at all...

[Mcgral18]

Kristen Redmond, on 03 October 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

Anyone who has a problem with accurate weaponry in a game where you have a crosshair, needs to go and play Mechcommander.

I don't want my weapons spraying around like they are being used by the cross-eyed Mogwai in gremlins 2, I want them to go where I fire them.

All 12 of them.

At 1200 meters.


Sounds perfect. And Magical.

Edited by Mcgral18, 03 October 2014 - 08:32 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Judge Redeemer, on 03 October 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

And you want to tell me that even seasoned warriors dont need to have recoil on guns they use?
You are firing a cannon and it having no recoil is exactly dependable from your abilities? to move it aligin it and fire...wow...some intense brain work...

Recoil; bullet drop these are both fine on appropriate weapons.

Randomness mechanics like CoF not so much.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Mcgral18, on 03 October 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

You'll notice I said no skill in MWO shooting system.

I stand by that. It's as simplistic as it gets.

So your accuracy is above 95% with every weapon system then?

Because if point and click adventures is easy you should very rarely miss.

[Mcgral18]

DV McKenna, on 03 October 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

So your accuracy is above 95% with every weapon system then?

Because if point and click adventures is easy you should very rarely miss.

Seeing as I like wubbing into the air, not quite.

Around 89% for just about every laser...strange.


Are you going to tell me it's difficult to shoot in MWO?

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Mcgral18, on 03 October 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Seeing as I like wubbing into the air, not quite.

Around 89% for just about every laser...strange.


Are you going to tell me it's difficult to shoot in MWO?

As discussed above lasers are slightly eaiser; what about your travel time weapons do you always hit with those?

Is it difficult to shoot in MWO? No; does it take skill to hit where you want consistently to not spread damage all over the mech yes.

It's a bit more complex than point and click as people like to make out.

[Xarian]

Lasers often get high accuracy because even if you hit for 1 tick of damage, it counts as a hit... be nice if it showed you damage dealt / potential damage dealt

[Mcgral18]

DV McKenna, on 03 October 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

As discussed above lasers are slightly eaiser; what about your travel time weapons do you always hit with those?

Is it difficult to shoot in MWO? No; does it take skill to hit where you want consistently to not spread damage all over the mech yes.

It's a bit more complex than point and click as people like to make out.

Range has an effect as well. Short range, it is point and click. Long range, with slow travelling weapons, has a bit more difficulty. I'm looking through the stats...and I can't help but notice just how borked they really are. It says I've taken MPLs 180 times, though that doesn't seem quite right. I've taken the WubShee out over 400 times, lets say 100 of those were the ERLL variant instead. I've also used them on the BJ1X a couple dozen times...but its still listed as under 200.

Xarian, on 03 October 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

Lasers often get high accuracy because even if you hit for 1 tick of damage, it counts as a hit... be nice if it showed you damage dealt / potential damage dealt

You can kind of calculate it with the hits/damage, but that doesn't account for the shooting at 75%+ max range which most people tend to do, for half damage.

[Yellow Kat]

Recoil would do wonders for pinpoint damage negation. For anyone that would say that a Mech would have no recoil. I suggest you play some of the older Mechwarrior games. The mech would be forced to "swivel" slightly when large weapons were fired, or a large amount of weapons on one side were fired.

[KuroNyra]

1453 R, on 03 October 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

God I hate convergence threads.

Assume for the moment that you guys all get what you want. Convergence is eliminated entirely, and any time anyone fires more than one weapon at a time their 'Mech has a gigantic mechanical seizure, spraying weapons fire in all directions in a full 360-degree sphere before punching itself in the head hitbox and auto-ejecting the pilot on top of a box of fireworks.

Stopped read right there, was more than enought for me.

You haven't read a line on the thread and are clearly trying to troll.
Did I say you would be able to miss a Dire Wolf at ten meter?
NO!
I NEVER SAID THAT!


THAT SYSTEM WOULDN'T MAKE YOU FIRE IN EVERY DIRECTION IN A COMIC STYLE! INSTEAD YOU WILL STILL HAVE A GOOD AIM AND WIIL HIT YOUR TARGET BUT WITH SOME SHIFTING SINCE YOUR FIRST ALPHA!


The more weapon you use using recoil, the less precise your shot are, but they still wouldn't miss (except if for example the target is very far away and you are doing alpha strike of PPC continusly with no time given to your weapon to recalibrate stilll, it would be very rare. It would spread more the damage.


But in no way it would be a system like World of Tank one who make the arty able to miss a good damn 150ton tank at 5 meter from him like it's the case.

Dirkdaring, on 03 October 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Your driving a massive several story high mech that has a fusion reactor, can send ammo from is legs up to its arms magically and can run full speed in water without slowing down. Screw your realism and recoil. No offense.

These problem should also be dealed other time.

But they didn't created Ghost Heat magic solution if I remember correctly. Contrary to the instant-convergence.

IraqiWalker, on 03 October 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Kuro, here's a refinement of your idea:


Scaling convergence, coupled with speed. Different convergence speeds for different weapons, and hardpoint locations. Plus, the mech's movement speed impacts it. Standing mechs will converge all weapons almost instantly, while mechs moving at 100% will take a bit longer. mechs moving at below 85% for example, will have great convergence speeds, while mechs moving much faster will be a bit slower at getting all of their weapons to hit that one millimeter.

For example, if that Timberwolf going on the move is trying to aim at an Awesome, and the T-Wolf had a UAC5 in the right arm, and 2MLs in the left, plus MPLs in the side torsos, here's what would happen.

Weapons start converging into a pinpoint location, however. The UAC5 takes longer than the MLs to get there. While the MPLs, being in the STs, converge almost instantly. The T-Wolf pilot can fire the MPLs, and the MLs, but to get the UAC5 on point as well, the pilot would have to either wait longer, or slow down the mech's speed.

We get PP damage, we get FLD damage, and we get PP FLD damage, but with a better skill cap.

This solution doesn't screw players' skill, keeps good aim very relevant, and emphasizes great decision making. Plus it helps mitigate PPFLD alphas that one shot people instantly. It solves the instant convergence issue.

Also, because the speed is based on percentage rather than a specific number, it doesn't screw over heavier mech pilots. That means a light mech sprint along at 120 or so Kph with near perfect convergence speeds, or an Atlas steamrolling a defensive line at 54 Kph with great accuracy as well.

I'm thinking of doing a full write up of this if people think it's a reasonable idea.

It can be an idea indeed. I am looking forward to see your write up about it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I think people against CoF are creating a bit of a strawman, and assuming that firing just one weapon would instantly make the next shot go 45 degrees off from where your reticule is at. Would it honestly be that bad if when I fired my 6 ERML in a Nova that it spread out somewhere between the LBX5 and LBX10 spread with one weapon always hitting where the reticule is aimed at (the source engine does this with all weapons). I dont think it would be all doom and gloom as many make it out, nor does it honestly take anything away from accuracy at least with the LBX5 spread since that is fairly tight.

Granted I think the biggest thing imo is that these hard hitting weapons have fast recycles on top of that, which they shouldn't. The typical sniping weapons should all have their recycle times increased to around MW4 levels and at least then they won't be as big of deal. Granted there are still some issues due to IS XL Engines deaths and side torsos removing arms as well (both of which did not happen in MW4 mind you).

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 04 October 2014 - 01:06 AM.

[w0rm]

There is no problem with the current convergence system.

[KuroNyra]

w0rm, on 04 October 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

There is no problem with the current convergence system.

Ho yes there is. A lot.
But you need to be blind yo not see it.

Edited by KuroNyra, 04 October 2014 - 01:46 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

WM Quicksilver, on 04 October 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

I think people against CoF are creating a bit of a strawman, and assuming that firing just one weapon would instantly make the next shot go 45 degrees off from where your reticule is at.

Most people are against it for the simple reason that it adds an unnecessary inexplicable hurdle to aiming. Suddenly, my shot, magically decided to not hit where the barrel is pointing. You see the problem with that? Regardless of the size of the cone, unless it's very tiny (which changes literally nothing), it will be opposed simply because it turns skill-based gameplay into a random crapshoot.

People keep bringing up TT rolls. However, 99% of them bring those up with no understanding of the mechanics or the lore that explained it behind them. The IS were stupid, and I mean colossally stupid. Like banging two rocks together to squeeze juice, stupid. The Draconis Combine for example had Stinger LAMS, that the didn't know could fly, and used them as ground mechs. That level of stupid. Couple that with them having no idea how to make a toaster even if you give them one to work off of, and they no longer have targeting computers. Which is why their pilots would literally eye-ball the shot from their cockpit. Hence why in TT, tech 1 games had this random shot silliness.

Tech 2 mechs usually have targeting computers in them (if they don't you're doing it wrong), and targeting computers - you guessed it- let you call your shots, and actually aim. All mechs that I fielded as tech 2 mechs had Targeting computers in them, so that I could put all my shots into the locations I want. Those locations being the torsos and cockpit. Making it no different from what we have right now.

Anyone that wants to play a tech 1 game should just disable their HUD, or switch to third person view, and save the rest of us the trouble.

KuroNyra, on 04 October 2014 - 12:37 AM, said:

It can be an idea indeed. I am looking forward to see your write up about it.

You know what? I'll start working on that.