132 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 October 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Not very useful? How not very useful was it? Now its an endless beacon of doom....its basically an IWIN button for all LRM users.....What was buffed on it?

NARC use to be near useless. It only had a 15 second duration (I believe), ECM turned it off, and it had a 20% chance (could be off on the chance) to be knocked off when the NARCed mech was damaged. Often times, it would pop off with a single LRM5 hit, or a single laser beam duration hit. It use to be good for one volley, maybe two if you were really lucky, if ECM didn't just cancel the whole thing out.

Now it lasts longer, doesn't have the chance to be knocked out, and can disable ECM on the NARCed target (only), while still being able to be canceled by another ECM unit nearby.

[MeiSooHaityu]

There is ONE change I would like for NARC. One change...Please let the player who is NARC'd, know he is NARC'd with an indicator. We get an Indicator when an enemy ECM is nearby, why not a NARC indicator.

That is the only change I would like. Other than that, it works fine and needs no adjustments IMO.

[AlmightyAeng]

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 October 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Not very useful? How not very useful was it? Now its an endless beacon of doom....its basically an IWIN button for all LRM users.....What was buffed on it?

It used to drop off after taking a stupidly small amount of damage. Basically a single LRM15 salvo and it would pop off. It made it useless, because it basically allowed a single, small salvo of missiles to reach the target...and then the target would disappear.

Nowadays, it stays on for a set amount of time, instead of falling off after taking X amount of damage.

So yeah, IF the other team takes LRM's and IF they have a narc and IF they hit you and IF you aren't in cover and IF you don't have ECM and IF you and people around you don't have AMS...yeah, you're likely going to die.

Change any of those factors and your survival rate increases exponentially.

Now take those same 'Mechs that are working as a team...and give them all PPC's and Autocannons and a direct line of sight. How long do you think you'd last in THAT matchup? And what equipment can you take to help out with these weapons? Nothing? Oh...you have the option of...just cover? Huh...teamwork, in any flavor, remains OP.

People teaming up and using LRM's effectively deserve those kills, especially if the fast-movers on your team don't close the distance and harass the missle users.

Yeah, you won't be able to negate LRM's every time...but you don't always WIN in rock/paper/scissors even though the mechanic is there, do you? LUCK and reading the situation properly is involved.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 15 October 2014 - 07:25 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Aresye, on 08 October 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

So what do you suggest when the MM puts you on Caustic Valley w/ no teammates that have ECM? Seems to me that if there's a possibility of being dropped on a map with little to no cover, on a team that has no counters, then that would be a balance issue that needs to be addressed, considering the player has no control over which map they drop on, or their team composition.

That's literally the only issue with missile balance that needs to be addressed. The effectiveness of missiles and their counters should never be based on the dice roll of the MM. A missile player should not be useless because of the MM, just like how a non-missile player shouldn't be obliterated by an unbreakable lock with no counters because of the MM. It's unfair to both parties to have them be fated to a horrible game simply because of the MM.

ECM on Caustic is a wondrous thing indeed but what one really needs to watch for is the spotters and NARC carrying Mechs. Without their support an LRM boat(s) needs "direct LOS" themselves.

Guess what counters "direct LOS"?

Return "Direct Fire" weapons. MWO is a Team game. When pugging, it is still a Team game, it just has an element of "crap-shoot" involved.

[Tesunie]

Almond Brown, on 15 October 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

Sounds like your Stalker and or Thor could have used a TAG laser.

It does now... (Stalker that is. I don't own the Thor, and only used it's trial stock prime configuration.)

(Another point is the fact that I almost need to take up an extra ton and energy slot for the TAG to use LRMs basically with ECM around. This only promotes boating LRMs even more, as if you are committing that much weight to LRM support... you might as well go the rest of the way.) (PS: I still don't boat LRMs, but this is part of the rationality of why people do boat LRMs.)

ECM, NARC, AMS are things that probably could use some help being more balanced overall in the game. Nothing should render a weapon system completely inert, nor should it make a weapon system unstoppable and unbeatable either. (I feel LRMs themselves sit in a decent place right now, but probably could use some spread tuning for indirect fired shots. Make indirect fire spread more! Leave the rest of LRMs mostly the same.)(ECM is the big problem with LRM balance if you asked me. Denying locks "unless" you have X gear is a bit much. AMS could probably use a bit of tweaking so it can't take out "all" LRMs incoming, or something, but is far less of an issue than ECM. Better balance on ECM would help determine if AMS/NARC may need more balancing.)

[AlmightyAeng]

Tesunie, on 15 October 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

It does now... (Stalker that is. I don't own the Thor, and only used it's trial stock prime configuration.)

(Another point is the fact that I almost need to take up an extra ton and energy slot for the TAG to use LRMs basically with ECM around. This only promotes boating LRMs even more, as if you are committing that much weight to LRM support... you might as well go the rest of the way.) (PS: I still don't boat LRMs, but this is part of the rationality of why people do boat LRMs.)

ECM, NARC, AMS are things that probably could use some help being more balanced overall in the game. Nothing should render a weapon system completely inert, nor should it make a weapon system unstoppable and unbeatable either. (I feel LRMs themselves sit in a decent place right now, but probably could use some spread tuning for indirect fired shots. Make indirect fire spread more! Leave the rest of LRMs mostly the same.)(ECM is the big problem with LRM balance if you asked me. Denying locks "unless" you have X gear is a bit much. AMS could probably use a bit of tweaking so it can't take out "all" LRMs incoming, or something, but is far less of an issue than ECM. Better balance on ECM would help determine if AMS/NARC may need more balancing.)

"Boating" LRM's in my book means 1 TAG, 2-4 ML's, and 30-60 LRM salvos. Always have a backup weapon...if only to exploit the juicy, unarmored orange and red bits at the end of games.

[skorpionet]

NARC is ok... but in Alpine I moved to H7, no cover, a spider popuped from H8, narced, sky went black, died without way to do anything... 0 DMG.... was frustrating also because was my first match with famous CSJx team.

"Luckily" in the following match I made 6 kills! Fiuuuuu.


But NARC is ok.... bad luck is OP.

Edited by skorpionet, 15 October 2014 - 07:35 AM.

[Tesunie]

Ghost Badger, on 15 October 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

"Boating" LRM's in my book means 1 TAG, 2-4 ML's, and 30-60 LRM salvos. Always have a backup weapon...if only to exploit the juicy, unarmored orange and red bits at the end of games.

My Stalker 3F currently runs with LRM15 x2, 7 tons of ammo, TAG, 4 Med lasers, BAP, SRM2 x2, 1 ton ammo. I like my backup weapons...

Most all of my LRM mechs have a decent supply of back up weapons on board. I also tend to find that I do as much damage with my close range weapons as I do my LRMs in those builds (match dependent). When the new state system came up (current stats), I did a test. I ran my Griffin 3M, which has 2 med lasers, 3-4 SSRM2s (I don't have access to my builds to confirm right now) and an LRM20. I found that I did about 50% of my average damage per match (looking at individual weapon stats combined with mech stats) with my close range weaponry (which, by the way, weighs less than my long range weapons do when considering ammo and heatsinks). Most of my kills I get are from carefully targeting locations damaged by my LRMs (and teammates) as the target closes in, and concentrating my close range weapons upon those damaged sections. (LRMs spread damage, so the more pin point weapons were more efficient at killing.)

skorpionet, on 15 October 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

NARC is ok... but in Alpine I moved to H7, no cover, a spider popuped from H8, narced, sky went black, died without way to do anything... 0 DMG.... was frustrating also because was my first match with famous CSJx team.

"Luckily" in the following match I made 6 kills! Fiuuuuu.


But NARC is ok.... bad luck is OP.

It happens to us all...

[Rayne Vickers]

LordKnightFandragon, on 15 October 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Not very useful? How not very useful was it? Now its an endless beacon of doom....its basically an IWIN button for all LRM users.....What was buffed on it?

It basically did nothing. It lasted about 10 seconds, then died, and if the mech took x amount of damage, it would blow off, so it might not even last 10 seconds. It didn't pierce ECM (I think it still doesn't unless you use the "Enhanced NARC" module, but I'd have to check). It lasts longer now, and doesn't break with damage. Considering it costs a fair amount of tonnage to mount, and you need at least 2 tons of ammo, given how hard it is to land a shot (they do not fly with ballistic accuracy) you're looking as 3.5-4 tons total for not much effectiveness (before the buff) while a TAG was 2-3x better for 1 ton. It had to be buffed to even be competitive, and they'd best leave it alone.

[Corbon Zackery]

They messed up the missile trajectory 6 to 8 months ago. Then PGI got bogged down with UI 2.0 and Clan wave 1 packs so it never got fixed and was forgotten by the staff.

Right now the rules are simple if you are spot targeted by a light the missiles will hit you unless you have a 20 story building or large terrain in front of you.

If your Tag/Spotted Missile will impact on that spot clustered or arty tight packed and its game over.

Narc Beacons basically attach a homing beacon on the spot of impact. The missiles will impact the spot even swerve unnaturally around terrain. I have seen missiles curve around rock and go over them then swerve into the beacon location.

Until they fix the angle of return no cover really works unless its a 20 story building. Or a Large rock.

[Belorion]

Obvious troll thread is obvious.

[Squarebasher]

I hate it when I see absolute's like the comment below in these threads.

The OP has some points when narced on some maps it is almost impossible to avoid.

Quote

[color=#959595]There is nothing wrong with narc that can't be cured by COVER... In fact, Narc+cover= burned up LRM bunkers for nothing. There's your pro tip. [/color]

[Belorion]

Squarebasher, on 15 October 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

I hate it when I see absolute's like the comment below in these threads.

The OP has some points when narced on some maps it is almost impossible to avoid.

[/size]

Almost impossible =/= impossible.

In addition to that, there are no maps where I find myself at the mercy of LRMs and no exit route. If you need help finding cover on specific maps let me know and I will point out the areas you can go.

[Ace Selin]

In its current form Narc is overpowered and needs a nerf. In Pug games there is no guaranteed ECM and constantly hiding behind the largest rock or building isn't fun for anyone, especially when you're behind a boulder 3 times your height and still gst LRMed due to missile arc, on maps withought good cover its game ending, in a bad way. Getting no warning that youre Narced is stupid and annoying, there definitely needs to be some warning you're Narced at minimum. Narc is gamebreaking In the sense it makes the game unfun, which is the worst thing in-game content can be, for that reason Narc needs to be altered.

Edited by Ace Selin, 15 October 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[GernMiester]

Kotev, on 04 October 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Its ridiculous, you get Narced and everyone on the map within 1000m fire missles at you. Standing behind coverage doesn`t work becouse of the stupid LRM arc. Its literaly death sentence. Needs to be corected becouse it`s game breaker. There is no protection. I have tried powering down mech, doesn`t work either.

Bwahahahhahhahhahhaha! You powered down, really? AHAHHAHHAHHHAHA!!!!!
Game Breaker? Nope, not even closer.

I will say it over and over again in various ways. Die by LRMS a lot, it means you suck. Not as a person but as a MWO gamer. Its not mean, its a fact. TAG me, NARC me and I will be missed by
LRMS because I have to skill to evade them in a mech going 160+ or in a slow 54KPH Stalker.

You are not a good player and want the game dumbed down because you think just because you participate you deserve a reward. Its parents fault for letting kids thinks that they deserve a reward for NOT WINNING. In the real world winners get rewards, like cash, trophies, and spokesperson contracts. The losers go back next year come here and cry about LRMS and NARCS.

LRMS are not overpowered, NARC is not overpowered, you ARE NOT VERY GOOD. Learn to accept it and it will allow you to improve. You mom doesn’t work at PGI so no one there will lie to you and tell you that you are good.

The fact that you are hear crying about the single most counter-able weapon system in MWO shows your lack of skill and your inability to accept that YOU are the issue. You can blame that on your parents for rewarding you for being just meh…..

Now you think the world cares that you are not good at a game and that the game should be changed because you can’t possibly be responsible for dying like a fool when playing.

LOL the game should change because you suck at it. Oh damn that’s funny. LOLOLOLOL

[Voivode]

AlphaStruck, on 06 October 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

Good questions!

1. LRMs should not be treated as a primary weapon system only as a auxillary added ability weapon. Missles should be used as a closing to target weapon, something every mech would benefit from carrying even in single smaller racks but would lose effectiveness and create larger and larger vulnerability the more boat like you become. Not to disable boating(very valid in team games with front line blockers as a artillery peice. The CPLT comes to mind)

2. Missles should deal damage and get kills! The damage should be a little more spread out and at a much MUCH lower DPS rate(burst damage could be somewhat higher). This gives the weapon a role. Right now they are a valide lone wolf, play by myself and still get the kills as missle boats have so few weaknesses. They have "some"... but running a boat you can EASILY out gun a directfire beast at 500m(not including the current clantech, another subject). The idea 2 equal mechs can stay at 500m and trade fire with the missle boat coming out remotely close is ludacris.

3.NO. A single mech should not be stopping all missles completely. The problem is that AMS is so deficient no one bother to spare 1.5t to carry it. Even dual AMS with both buffs does nothing. AMS also concentrates on the lead missle even after its passed a mech... It should be lockable to your front making sure its always shooting down relevant missles. Ammo counts need to be addressed as 4000 rounds lasts about 6m in a match with more than 1 missels boat. AMS needs to be buffed to increased range(10%), ammo(100%), and damage about 5%-15% with a targeting fix or minor upgardes to all with other option to increase your mechs anti missle output. This include module increases, upgrade opitons to AMS with c-bill cost( airburst with great anitLRM ability, frag ammo with excellent antiSRM ability but no LRM and with less ammo per ton or taking more slots per ton) and other options each with a trade off. Not immune but with the right setup and trade offs you and your team can ruin a boat lovers day.

4. Cover from missles is good choice. Should be more choices... right now its dont peak or get seen or you take 60+ damage.
Cover should be used until the team decides to move in or to another location but that movement shouldnt cost you a assault. We need far more tactical movement and repositioning to bring stratagy back into the game.

Note: Right now there is a rock, paper, scissors meta effect to the game. You bring this you win in this scenario, you bring this you win here... Balancing this single weapon will look like massive underpowering untill the massive balancing problems are fixed. All mechs should be tempted to bring a few lrms but boating in all its forms needs to be the oddball on the team... not the standard.

Do you believe they should be a primary weapon or common in boating? I honestly think it helps wuin gameplay but I may be in the minority here.

In response

1) If they are only secondary weapon systems what is the Catapult to do? It doesn't brawl well or snipe well (K2 and Jester aside) so it's not going to excel at those roles. Hell, the A1 has nothing but missile hardpoints. There are too many mechs dependent on missile hardpoints for the bulk of their firepower to limit LRMs to some sort of "support" role where an LRM20 is little more than a 10ton flamer.

2) I agree that the DPS should be lower, but I'd like that to come with a faster flight speed. As for beating a direct fire mech at 500meters. No. Just no. LRM boats will lose to direct fire builds in a head on fight.

3) AMS is fairly effective. It's not meant to be a hard counter, just a damage reducer, and it works against streaks and SRMs as well (albeit way less effectively than against LRMs). Sometimes me and a buddy will run two Atlas 7K's and between the 4 AMS we have it's kind of silly how few missiles get through even when clouds of them come our way.

4) Direct fire weapons are far more dangerous when "peeking" than LRMs. LRMs have an almost silly travel time and they warn you when they're coming in. PPCs, Gauss Rifles, ERLLs, and Autocannons are not so polite as to let you know they're incoming.



ALSO, to the OP, go build an LRM boat. Buy a Stalker or Catapult or something and pack as much LURM on as you can. Drop in that mech a few dozen times. After that, go build a NARC helper, something like a Jenner K or Raven 3L or Commando 2D and go NARC some targets. You've been on the receiving end of it, now go be on the giving end of it. You'll find out quickly that NARC/LRM builds have very powerful downsides. Especially in public queue. I've had matches where my 5tons (NARC + ammo) on my Raven 3L were wasted because not a single person on my team had LRMs.

Edited by Voivode, 15 October 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Kjudoon]

MeiSooHaityu, on 15 October 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

There is ONE change I would like for NARC. One change...Please let the player who is NARC'd, know he is NARC'd with an indicator. We get an Indicator when an enemy ECM is nearby, why not a NARC indicator.

That is the only change I would like. Other than that, it works fine and needs no adjustments IMO.

I still want it to be something cool other than a light though... like something is shorting out systems and you see sparks or a little smoke from a panel or something. Something that says "You have something on your hull that is broadcasting your position AND trying to short out any ECM you might have.

[Kjudoon]

Oh, as a reminder... AMS shoots down NARC too.

[zortesh]

If you hate narc beacons, you've probably played against me at some point.



I maintain your accusations of narcs being broken in anyway is crazy talk, i think your just jealous of a narc toting lrmboats ability to rake in 444kcbills in a single battle by stacking up equal amounts of narc bonuses and component destruction ontop of the assists and kills you get every match anyway.

But hell it ain't like narcing is easy, can be quite brutal at times, even one good ecm light hiding in the middle of the enemy blob where you cant reach him with a narc and your basically useless.... well when you land against 3-4 it is super hard mode.

Less all the ecm lights scatter to the corners of the map and let you massacre them.
Sortof like this for example, thou our lights countering them was super useful too i might add.


So please lurmboats of mwo, let us combine our powers, let us all work narc beacons into our builds, let us make them truly fear the lurms.

PS: Seriously lets put together a team where every last mech has narc+lurms, i'd love to see what 6-12 narc lauchers can do when backed up by 200-300+ tubes of lrms.

Edited by zortesh, 15 October 2014 - 09:06 PM.

[Tesunie]

Belorion, on 15 October 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Almost impossible =/= impossible.

In addition to that, there are no maps where I find myself at the mercy of LRMs and no exit route. If you need help finding cover on specific maps let me know and I will point out the areas you can go.

Though I don't personally have a problem finding cover...
1. Alpine.
2. Caustic

These two maps are the most commonly stated "If you are on this map, and LRMs find you, there is no cover". Might want to at least point out cover areas on those two maps. You do that, I think people will have more knowledge on the subject as well have less of a standing when they say there is no/not enough cover.