85 replies to this topic

[The Wakelord]

Ok so.

From what I've garned, the old-hands hate third person view, and that PGI were forced to implement it.

Can anyone explain to me why it is so hated?

Pros:
- Can see your mech from behind (exploitable to easier see if you are getting hit?)
- Can judge the ground better (exploitable to easier limit fall damage?)
- Can see over hills (exploitable for LRM rain)

Cons:
- Everyone can see where you are thanks to the flashing light
- You have no map
- It is near impossible to aim for anything other than LRM/SRM
- People randomly hate on you

From what I can see,
- It is not hated because it is new: If memory serves, mechwarrior 2 on the Windows 95 had 3PV, so this isn't one of a kind, and we certainly had 3PV for the tabletop.
- It isn't hated because it is overpowered, which we can see because so people use it. We'
- It isn't hated because we're forced to use it (if you don't like it, don't use it)

So why?

Edited by The Wakelord, 05 October 2014 - 05:17 AM.

[That Dawg]

I dont care if you use it, just dont use it on my team.
that little glowing red beacon just invites an arty drop from across the map.
I'VE done it!! NOTHING demoralizes a team as fast as getting 5-6 arms blown off 30 seconds into the game.

[King Arthur IV]

waste of development time and resources.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

The noob light that can be seen ALL the way across a map. LOL. 3PV even with the limitations has exploitations. see over terrain and auto arm lock for tight fights.

Frankly they had much more to work on when they did it. Made a lot of promises of never gonna happen, and it will be split out. And well, here it is.

[Vassago Rain]

PGI promised they'd never implement it. This was in fact part of the original pitch.

Later, their position changed, as it did on so many other things.



It's strictly a question of integrity.



Now in 2014, their constant position changes have seriously damaged their reputation, as proven by the transverse fiasco.



Where do you think things like 'you're on an island,' 'launch is a line in the sand,' 'it was our position at the time,' and so many other things come from?

Edit: here are some choice oldies showing how useful it was to new players, and totally proving that it couldn't be abused to gain the same advantages that were the reason it wasn't included in the first place.





tl; dr PGI lied. It came back to haunt them later.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 05 October 2014 - 05:30 AM.

[Wolfways]

At the time it was thought that it would allow players to scout without leaving cover. Thankfully PGI managed to make it almost completely pointless. So, as said above, it was a complete waste of development time and resources.

[King Arthur IV]

before we go to far into flaming about this again.

in the recent town hall they apologised about it.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

The Wakelord, on 05 October 2014 - 05:15 AM, said:

Ok so.

From what I've garned, the old-hands hate third person view, and that PGI were forced to implement it.

Can anyone explain to me why it is so hated?

Pros:
- Can see your mech from behind (exploitable to easier see if you are getting hit?)
- Can judge the ground better (exploitable to easier limit fall damage?)
- Can see over hills (exploitable for LRM rain)

Cons:
- Everyone can see where you are thanks to the flashing light
- You have no map
- It is near impossible to aim for anything other than LRM/SRM
- People randomly hate on you

From what I can see,
- It is not hated because it is new: If memory serves, mechwarrior 2 on the Windows 95 had 3PV, so this isn't one of a kind, and we certainly had 3PV for the tabletop.
- It isn't hated because it is overpowered, which we can see because so people use it. We'
- It isn't hated because we're forced to use it (if you don't like it, don't use it)

So why?

At this point, it was the waste of time to put it in the game.

Originally, when the game was pitched to us, it was pitched as a "first person view mech sim." The devs then went back on that. I believe it was Paul pushed the issue, saying that people couldn't understand how the torso vs leg orientation worked. So they were implimenting 3rd person view as a solution for new players so they could understand the relationship between torso/leg movement.

Those of us who have played prior mechwarrior titles competitively, knew what was coming with that statement. You see, in say, Mechwarrior 4 Mercernary's for instance, 3rd person view was used HEAVILY on servers that allowed it, becauase there were no drawbacks, it gave you a MUCH better sight picture than you could get from your cockpit, and allowed you to peek over hills without exposing yourself, or letting the enemy know you were there. This tactic proved especially useful for those who fell into the Poptart/Jump Sniping meta. As they would use 3rd person view to peak over a hill to get the bearing of an enemy, before jumping up to shoot.

So we rallied against this, because for 10 years, we put up with that, and we didn't want it anymore. We've been there, done that, got the T-shirt, commemorative plates, and a swanky coffee mug.

So anyway, Paul states that his son couldn't understand the relation between torso/leg movement, so they were implimenting 3rd person view to allow new players to understand that relationship... In order to do that, the player would need to see their entire mech, legs and all, so you could understand the entire picture. If they intergrated 3rd person view in this way, it would be largely an exploitable feature. So to appease the masses, they stated there would be a "camera" drone floating behind the mech with a light, so you could see who was utilizing 3rd person view.

Then, we finally see what they gave us... which is a view that shows from the back of the rear torso, up... Which defeated their own argument for putting the view mode into the game anyway, because you can't see the relation of the mechs leg facing to the torso.

So basically, to include a feature they felt needed, they nerfed said feature to uselessness for it's intended purpose, to avoid exploiting the feature for unintended purposes. Which basically makes 3rd person view utterly pointless, and a waste of time and effort for something that wasn't needed in the first place and could have been covered, and explained, by an actual Tutorial.

So many of the "old guard" Hate it for what it stands for. As well as the fact that it was one, of many, broken bits of the initial pitch.

Edited by Flash Frame, 05 October 2014 - 05:38 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Flash Frame, on 05 October 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

At this point, it was the waste of time to put it in the game.

Originally, when the game was pitched to us, it was pitched as a "first person view mech sim." The devs then went back on that. I believe it was Paul pushed the issue, saying that people couldn't understand how the torso vs leg orientation worked. So they were implimenting 3rd person view as a solution for new players so they could understand the relationship between torso/leg movement.

Those of us who have played prior mechwarrior titles competitively, knew what was coming with that statement. You see, in say, Mechwarrior 4 Mercernary's for instance, 3rd person view was used HEAVILY on servers that allowed it, becauase there were no drawbacks, it gave you a MUCH better sight picture than you could get from your cockpit, and allowed you to peek over hills without exposing yourself, or letting the enemy know you were there. This tactic proved especially useful for those who fell into the Poptart/Jump Sniping meta. As they would use 3rd person view to peak over a hill to get the bearing of an enemy, before jumping up to shoot.

So we rallied against this, because for 10 years, we put up with that, and we didn't want it anymore. We've been there, done that, got the T-shirt, commemorative plates, and a swanky coffee mug.

So anyway, Paul states that his son couldn't understand the relation between torso/leg movement, so they were implimenting 3rd person view to allow new players to understand that relationship... In order to do that, the player would need to see their entire mech, legs and all, so you could understand the entire picture. If they intergrated 3rd person view in this way, it would be largely an exploitable feature. So to appease the masses, they stated there would be a "camera" drone floating behind the mech with a light, so you could see who was utilizing 3rd person view.

Then, we finally see what they gave us... which is a view that shows from the back of the rear torso, up... Which defeated their own argument for putting the view mode into the game anyway, because you can't see the relation of the mechs leg facing to the torso.

So basically, to include a feature they felt needed, they nerfed said feature to uselessness for it's intended purpose, to avoid exploiting the feature for unintended purposes. Which basically makes 3rd person view utterly pointless, and a waste of time and effort for something that wasn't needed in the first place and could have been covered, and explained, by an actual Tutorial.

Remember the original pitch?

THIS ISN'T YOUR FATHER'S MECHWARRIOR.



Mechwarrior online: the future is WAR.

[JackPoint]

Are they still talking about that bs 3pv-1pv queue lol. that comment made me howl.

[Shalune]

There is no rational reason for the anger. People are just mad because it represents an impurity to the pristine alabaster Mechwarrior in the sky.

A vast majority of brand new players will never post on the forums. You will likely never hear from a single person who the feature was targeted at.

Instead what you'll find on the forums are the same things you find on most forums: echo chambers of parroted "popular" opinions being largely represented by a small minority of the player base.

[meteorol]

Well the initial hate was probably because PGI said they wouldn't do it but then changed their mind.
Guys went totally nuts because they thought everyone would exploit it.
Turned out no one is using it, so it ended up being nothing but wasted dev time.

[Vassago Rain]

Shalune, on 05 October 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

There is no rational reason for the anger. People are just mad because it represents an impurity to the pristine alabaster Mechwarrior in the sky.

A vast majority of brand new players will never post on the forums. You will likely never hear from a single person who the feature was targeted at.

Instead what you'll find on the forums are the same things you find on most forums: echo chambers of parroted "popular" opinions being largely represented by a small minority of the player base.

This has been proven very wrong by transverse's failure. Not only did the game never take off, but the comments on every forum, every news website, every youtube channel... It's all the same.

[Edustaja]

To be honest I was initially angry about the 3pv, but when I saw the implementation and it's exclusion from the group queue it became a non-issue for me.

[Rhaegor]

King Arthur IV, on 05 October 2014 - 05:32 AM, said:

before we go to far into flaming about this again.

in the recent town hall they apologised about it.

I had a girl cheat on my once back in college, she apologized, in fact she begged and cried for forgiveness. It did not matter. Just saying. Trust is a really hard thing to regain or repair once damaged or lost.

Edited by Rhaegor, 05 October 2014 - 06:04 AM.

[King Arthur IV]

Rhaegor, on 05 October 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

I had a girl cheat on my once back in college, she apologized, in fact she begged and cried for forgiveness. It did not matter. Just saying. Trust is a really hard thing to regain or repair once damaged or lost.

being cheated on and making the wrong business decision is just a little different you know.

[EvilCow]

Rhaegor, on 05 October 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

I had a girl cheat on my once back in college, she apologized, in fact she begged and cried for forgiveness. It did not matter. Just saying. Trust is a really hard thing to regain or repair once damaged or lost.

Repair trust requires one thing: hard facts.

After the "new start" I am still waiting, I just saw better communication but that is far from enough.

The first fact could be removing 3pv with one swift patch, not because it is a real problem (apart from being confusing for new players), just because it is the symbol of everything was perceived as rotten with PGI.

That would take swallowing some pride of course.

Edited by EvilCow, 05 October 2014 - 06:20 AM.

[The Wakelord]

Thanks everyone for explaining it! I can understand the initial backlash from the playerbase, but I'm surprised we are still seeing the 3PV 'hatemail' come so frequently ... what 3~4 years on?

Vassago Rain, on 05 October 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

tl; dr PGI lied. It came back to haunt them later.

Is that it? Just players holding a grudge for something that doesn't affect their gameplay? Thank you for going into so much detail, but it seems really juvenile to hold it against PGI for so long, especially when their implementation avoided the competitive concerns, and now at least shows the full mech (give or take its toes). I know I appreciated it when I started. Pitches are not the finished game after all, just a 'please give us money to make something cool along these lines.'

Wolfways, on 05 October 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

So, as said above, it was a complete waste of development time and resources.

Fair enough - I'd assume we'd leave it then so we don't waste more of their time removing the code.


So overall, it's a case of it is helpful to new people, and a non-point for experienced players, but there is some bad-blood from back in the alpha days, and some of the player-base has kept this grudge going and wants to remove this one nod to a 'learning mechanic'?

[Scratx]

Can't forget the poll.

Can never forget the poll. 90+% NO with a HUGE number of votes.

And they still did it.


That aside, meh, it's old history, water under the bridge, apology accepted, now get on with getting us CW going so you can look at fixing NPE and improving CW further AND who knows make it so 3PV can be excised entirely from PUG/Group play. 3PV is far more crippling than helpful for player skill growth.

[Vassago Rain]

The Wakelord, on 05 October 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

Thanks everyone for explaining it! I can understand the initial backlash from the playerbase, but I'm surprised we are still seeing the 3PV 'hatemail' come so frequently ... what 3~4 years on?


Is that it? Just players holding a grudge for something that doesn't affect their gameplay? Thank you for going into so much detail, but it seems really juvenile to hold it against PGI for so long, especially when their implementation avoided the competitive concerns, and now at least shows the full mech (give or take its toes). I know I appreciated it when I started. Pitches are not the finished game after all, just a 'please give us money to make something cool along these lines.'

Fair enough - I'd assume we'd leave it then so we don't waste more of their time removing the code.


So overall, it's a case of it is helpful to new people, and a non-point for experienced players, but there is some bad-blood from back in the alpha days, and some of the player-base has kept this grudge going and wants to remove this one nod to a 'learning mechanic'?

It's not helpful to anyone, and it was said they'd never add it. When they changed their position, they promised we'd not have to play against people using third person. Once the feature went live, they pretended they'd never promised we'd not have to play with it on, and were generally extremely abusive to their customers.

It's all about integrity, like I said.

Wasn't the first time their position changed, or the last time, but now in 2014, all the karma's come back to smack PGI. If you look into the story of the game, and PGI, you'll know why the schadenfreude's so thick lately.