24 replies to this topic

[Helsbane]

I was looking at a few of the mechs over at Sarna and kept coming across very nice units that are timeline appropriate, but lack the minimum number of chassis variants to 'make the cut'. So, for me, that brings up the question, why not simply add a variant? I mean, all those 'canon approved' mechs were all made up, right? Someone a few years ago went, 'I need a different unit for this story about so and so...", and created a new version to fit their needs. So, I gotta ask, why is it NOT okay to do so now to allow more mechs into the current game? It's been okay in the past for game designers to create mechs completely, so why not here?

It would be a great way to get some things into the game, like the Hammerhands for example. Currently, for the MWO timeline, there are only two versions available. However, if you do a little reading, the Hammerhands was a stepping stone to the Warhammer, right? Now, I wouldn't see anything wrong with adding a third variant of the Hammerhands to the game, call it a prototype, field mod, whatever, and swap out the ACs for a pair of PPCs. Wow, now we have the Warhammer, but without having to wrestle HG for it. Sure, we gotta call it something else, and it weighs five extra tons, but it's a way to get both the Hammerhands and a 'Warhammer' into the game.

Is it a lack of story to go along with the unit that makes it unacceptable? Hell, I can write a story for these 'non-canon' or 'new' units, just like the original authors did twenty years ago. If that's what it would take to make these constraints go away, I can whip up a tale or two so it makes people accept them into 'lore'.

In short, all these mechs, absolutely every one of them, is made up. Why be so hung up on the written subject matter that came before that it impairs the current game and hamstrings the possibilities? Let's make up a few more for those chassis that lack the last required version, and move on. Trust me, in twenty more years, they'll be just as canon as the rest of them.

[Nathan Foxbane]

The Hammerhands is one of the worst examples you could use for this argument. It is extinct in this time period. It was designed to replace the Battleaxe (also extinct) which is much closer to the Warhammer in design, but not looks. There are no factories to produce a new variant, they have be repurposed to produce other 'Mechs. The more you bypass lore the less it become Battletech and Mechwarrior. I doubt even Microsoft, the license issuer would let that fly. Straying into apocryphal territory is one thing, what you propose is jumping the fence and using MW to generate a new IP. IP owners and their lawyers often take offense at that point.

They do in fact have stories related to them. If you look at your example, you will see the Hammerhands influenced the Warhammer, but despite its appearance is not directly related to the Warhammer. As for using it to make an end run around HG, HG's lawyers are not paid to let things like that go. Even if HG lost such a case the costs would destroy PGI in the process.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 05 October 2014 - 03:00 PM.

[Burktross]

Getting anything new created by PGI has been met with walls of iron neckbeards used endearingly , so it's a rather a lost cause at this point. We need to petition the source...

TABLE TOP
Then of course there's also the problem that people don't like the idea of mechanic / stat changes either.
Basically everyone will lose no matter what.
: ^ )

[Mcgral18]

Burktross, on 05 October 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

Getting anything new created by PGI has been met with walls of iron neckbeards used endearingly , so it's a rather a lost cause at this point. We need to petition the source...

TABLE TOP
Then of course there's also the problem that people don't like the idea of mechanic / stat changes either.
Basically everyone will lose no matter what.
: ^ )

What if I told you, PGI has never used TT stats?


No reason not to invent a few mech variants when needed. Look at Heroes.

[3rdworld]

I agree. Make up a pillager variant, and give it to me already!

[Burktross]

Mcgral18, on 05 October 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

What if I told you, PGI has never used TT stats?


No reason not to invent a few mech variants when needed. Look at Heroes.

For TT I was more so referring to official lore as opposed to rules. (New mechs, weapons, so on)
And for mechanic changes, I never meant from MWO renditions-- I meant from TT initially.

Edited by Burktross, 05 October 2014 - 03:37 PM.

[Soul Tribunal]

To those who say they cannot do it, remember they already have. see this quote from Sarna:

Quote

Apocryphal Variants

• CDA-X5 The X-5 is a prototype for an advanced Cicada. Outfitted with Ferro-Fibrous Armor, Double Heat Sinks, an XL engine, and Endo Steel skeleton, it still manages to outpace all medium 'Mechs and almost all light 'Mechs, with a top speed of 133.7km/h. Its armament is optimized for short range, with four medium lasers and a pair of SRM-2s fed by an experimental ammo system, giving it a light armament by medium 'Mech standards, but still much better than the older 2A, 2B, and 3C variants. Though the design was highly successful in testing, a combination of the extreme price of production, the relative fragility of the 'Mech, and the difficulty of piloting the 'Mech due to its extreme speed and higher inertia (as compared to comparably fast light 'Mechs) prevented the X-5 from entering production. The few prototype models deployed in combat after testing concluded proved to be a deadly force on the battlefield. Lessons learned with this model were applied to the 3F variant, though the missile capability was dropped due to jamming issues. (This is an apocryphal 'Mech, designed for MechWarrior Online.)

So I am okay with it if it means more mechs. -ST

[El Bandito]

Why not go one step further and create TWO apocryphal variants for the War Dog so that the IS can have their own Heavy ECM mech?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/War_Dog

The buy "3 to master 1" system of PGI is so dumb.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 October 2014 - 03:47 PM.

[Johnny Z]

I am not a huge fan of sarna because it puts everything mechwarrior in the worste possible light. I am not saying it is all bad, but alot of it I cant stand.

I am not even sure how much of it is true lore and how much is peeps muddying the Mechwarrior waters as it were.

I mean can most of the mech pics be any uglier? I have said this before, but I looked up Natasha Kerensky and it showed a pic of a 95 year old woman. I was shocked to see it really. Its like looking up Snow White and finding a pic of the Wicked Witch? Know what I mean? And hey 95 year old women a cute and all, just not what I think of Natasha Kerensky.

Edited by Johnny Z, 05 October 2014 - 05:14 PM.

[Belorion]

There is another thread floating around with the same subject matter.

[Burktross]

Belorion, on 05 October 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

There is another thread floating around with the same subject matter.

Yeah...
This one is quieter though.

[Jeon Ji Yoon]

3rdworld, on 05 October 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

I agree. Make up a pillager variant, and give it to me already!

Pillager is a nice mech, I'd go for that

[CHH Badkarma]

Jeon Ji Yoon, on 05 October 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

Pillager is a nice mech, I'd go for that

That and the Thunderhawk.
Imagine the crys of OP if those two mechs ever showed up

[CocoaJin]

Well Hero mechs can be made up mechs right? Maybe they can make hero variants to flesh out the required three. Even if we have to pay for the hero variants, if you really want to maximize that chassis because you really like it, then what's wrong with paying for it...especially if they let them go for a bargain since there is no other way to get all three.

[LordKnightFandragon]

CocoaJin, on 05 October 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

Well Hero mechs can be made up mechs right? Maybe they can make hero variants to flesh out the required three. Even if we have to pay for the hero variants, if you really want to maximize that chassis because you really like it, then what's wrong with paying for it...especially if they let them go for a bargain since there is no other way to get all three.

I think its ******** having to elite 3 mechs to begin with....its as if PGI was trying to inflate the mech count by simply making us lvl 3 of the same mech. Instead, they coulda been actually making new mech models and crap...

[Helsbane]

Nathan Foxbane, on 05 October 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

The Hammerhands is one of the worst examples you could use for this argument. It is extinct in this time period. It was designed to replace the Battleaxe (also extinct) which is much closer to the Warhammer in design, but not looks. There are no factories to produce a new variant, they have be repurposed to produce other 'Mechs. The more you bypass lore the less it become Battletech and Mechwarrior. I doubt even Microsoft, the license issuer would let that fly. Straying into apocryphal territory is one thing, what you propose is jumping the fence and using MW to generate a new IP. IP owners and their lawyers often take offense at that point.

They do in fact have stories related to them. If you look at your example, you will see the Hammerhands influenced the Warhammer, but despite its appearance is not directly related to the Warhammer. As for using it to make an end run around HG, HG's lawyers are not paid to let things like that go. Even if HG lost such a case the costs would destroy PGI in the process.

See? So hung up on what was written that you blind yourself to the possibilities. If I were to write a story about a lost manufacturing facility dedicated to producing Hammerhands and a few other production lines, set it in period universe, and make it read well enough that folks would fall in love with the characters and their machines, your argument would instantly be moot. If that story were to contain the initial thoughts of converting the Hammerhands to a PPC variant due to a lack of ammo on site and an impending attack, you'd get the initial impression of, "Wow, they took what they learned during that incident and use it to create the Warhammer!"

Any talented writer can take these 'canon' settings and bend them any way they want, altering timelines just enough to create new (if limited in production) units, without breaking the overall universe. Sure, the Hammerhands could have been in short supply throughout most of the Inner Sphere, but in this little tale, there are two hundred awaiting shipment. All shiny and new, but are pressed into service due to ..... insert dire circumstances here. Congrats, you have a new variant and can be a part of MWO's rule of three.

Basically, you can wave old paperbacks and TROs in the air all day and cry, "Because of this!", and in return I can hold up a brand new story containing material set in the same universe and make your position irrelevant. Novelists have been doing that forever! Learn to let go of the things holding this game back.

[Nathan Foxbane]

You could write as well as you want. I'll be happy to be moot if CGL approves. Until then it is just dreams.

[Vassago Rain]

Helsbane, on 05 October 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

See? So hung up on what was written that you blind yourself to the possibilities. If I were to write a story about a lost manufacturing facility dedicated to producing Hammerhands and a few other production lines, set it in period universe, and make it read well enough that folks would fall in love with the characters and their machines, your argument would instantly be moot. If that story were to contain the initial thoughts of converting the Hammerhands to a PPC variant due to a lack of ammo on site and an impending attack, you'd get the initial impression of, "Wow, they took what they learned during that incident and use it to create the Warhammer!"

Any talented writer can take these 'canon' settings and bend them any way they want, altering timelines just enough to create new (if limited in production) units, without breaking the overall universe. Sure, the Hammerhands could have been in short supply throughout most of the Inner Sphere, but in this little tale, there are two hundred awaiting shipment. All shiny and new, but are pressed into service due to ..... insert dire circumstances here. Congrats, you have a new variant and can be a part of MWO's rule of three.

Basically, you can wave old paperbacks and TROs in the air all day and cry, "Because of this!", and in return I can hold up a brand new story containing material set in the same universe and make your position irrelevant. Novelists have been doing that forever! Learn to let go of the things holding this game back.

It's canon because people have declared it so.

It doesn't matter how well you write, or what you write. People desire a real warhammer, not a fake one from fanfiction made by Guy X on a forum somewhere.

[Iyica de Tylmarande]

Nathan Foxbane, on 05 October 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Straying into apocryphal territory is one thing, what you propose is jumping the fence and using MW to generate a new IP. IP owners and their lawyers often take offense at that point.

Most IP owners are happy so long as you pay their license fee. And if they don't like it, they can't do anything about it other than not renew your license when it expires, but again, I don't think they care, particularly not in regards to variants. I mean, isn't the Ilya hero mech made up?

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

The rule of three has lived itself up, let's go for a brand new, thinking man's leveling system))