601 replies to this topic

[Goose]

EXEOBUREC, on 05 December 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:

- also take the heavy ones))

http://www.hardwares...e-of-cement/220

[Goose]

AMD Saturday

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: AMD FX-8370E 3.3GHz 8-Core Processor ($169.99 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: Thermalright TS-120M 53.3 CFM CPU Cooler ($38.98 @ SuperBiiz)
Thermal Compound: Arctic Silver 5 High-Density Polysynthetic Silver 3.5g Thermal Paste ($4.98 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: MSI 990FXA-GD65V2 ATX AM3+ Motherboard ($79.98 @ OutletPC)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-2133 Memory ($59.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Toshiba Product Series:DT01ACA 2TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($67.99 @ NCIX US)
Video Card: Gigabyte Radeon R9 270X 2GB WINDFORCE Video Card ($137.99 @ Newegg)
Case: Cooler Master HAF 912 ATX Mid Tower Case ($44.99 @ Micro Center)
Power Supply: Corsair Builder 600W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($34.99 @ Newegg)
Optical Drive: Lite-On iHAS124-14 DVD/CD Writer ($9.75 @ Newegg)
Total: $649.63
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-06 16:16 EST-0500

Base Total: $731.88
Promo Discounts: -$13.24
Mail-in Rebates: -$75.00
Shipping: $5.99
Total: $649.63

Right: It was only $3 to make the cooler the 120mm and not "just" the 92, all of which were cheaper then low-end AiOs that mostly exist for shipping completed systems.

This is probably a build that could use some more case fans, but this weeks build(s) had Teh Sting calling the shots: Feel free to add more 120s', or two of the Cooler Master 200s', if your overclock temps seem disquieted …But there's only ~1.6A left on the +12V rail, so you may want to change out the PSU naow for a bigger one if you have any doubts.

Dat RAM


Do remember any AMD build requires overclocking and a good-sized set of tweaks to settings and the user.cfg. You've Been Warned.

[EXEOBUREC]

Some of what you're saying makes sense, but a lot of this a bit silly.

I have no idea where you're going with memory, plain and simple.

Today almost all ddr3 memory modules base on the SAME chips. For example my hynix1333 (really cheap) and many of the @brand@ 1800 memory modules are made from exactly the same chips, only difference is @cool@ radiator (it is not necessary at all) and more aggressive default settings - my hynix also can work at these settings and i even made it work at 2000 mhz with same timings and voltages but it is just dont add noticeable differences in game process - less then 1% and it also has good warranty of quality

Motherboards vary in price because features vary in price. Boards have different numbers of power phases and quality of capacitors and VRMs that affect overclocks and long-term reliability, UEFI is still -somehow- not a universal feature, there are differences in the number of SATA III and USB 3 ports, and there are huge disparities in slot layout and bandwidth.

If all you want out of your 1150 or 1155 board is to put the processor in and have it boot with two budget sticks of DDR3-1333 and work, sure, get the 2nd cheapest motherboard, as long as the brand is reputable (probably Asrock when going cheap). If you want two full speed PCIE x16 slots, however, if you want more than maybe two USB 3.0 ports, or even more than zero, if you want to OC your CPU, you're going to pay to get these things.

50% of motherboard price is chipset and minimal needed base for it, 25 is @bells and whristles@ from manufacturer all this 2 more usb and 2 pci slots and 2 sata 3 not really needed in most cases for cheap game machine. Most chipsets already has several usb 3 and sata 3 and not many people need MORE. Better buy motherboard with non cut chipset without all this @additional slots) then @shiny@ piece of @marketing@ technologies wth cut chipset but with 300% of needed phase number and additional slots or usb ports - only real brand that i know is Foxxcon - they really made almost all by themself and other just take main parts from them and add some @bells@ note also the price differences and you can see what part of your money takes for @brand@ name companies that simple use Foxxcon elemental base.


And brand matters hugely for power supplies, because companies can put whatever they want on a PSU for sustained wattage (what you call "real watts"). Here's a Logisys "550W" unit. To their credit, they claim only 400W of sustained output. Can that PSU output 400W reliably? No. I know because it's $24 without any rebates, and I know because it's a Logisys unit.

Note that the REAL watts for this PSU at 12v line is 400-200=200 watts all other is just @marketing@ and this is too expensive for 200 watts.

Shopping with reputable brands, Corsair, Seasonic, Antec, Superflower, anything newer from Rosewill, etc etc, is one of the only ways, short of reading detailed reviews/tests to know if you're buying a workable unit (though anyone who really cares will still read reviews). There's more than wattage, too. There's efficiency, voltage regulation, ripple, behavior at high temperature, overcurrent protection, etc. And yes, usually good power supplies are heavy, and dismal ones not, but putting your unit on a scale is not a good way to measure its attributes.
Yes, but the easiest way to detect bad psu is using my Real watts method - if @brand@ lie this is bad @brand@ if it have 90 - 95% from its psu name in REAL WATTS then its good.
Also note that most of PSU made in chinas factories with same specifications and @brand@ just rename it for example @brandname 700 truly power thunderstorm just give us your money@ can easily be detected in chinas factory spec list as @mid quality cheap 600 watts max output@ and also as @notsolyingbrandname 600 simple stom@ at specific forums you can find what the letters marking really mean with links on chinas real manufacturers data sheets.

Edited by EXEOBUREC, 07 December 2014 - 05:32 AM.

[Catamount]

Quote

Today almost all ddr3 memory modules base on the SAME chips. For example my hynix1333 (really cheap) and many of the @brand@ 1800 memory modules are made from exactly the same chips, only difference is @cool@ radiator (it is not necessary at all) and more aggressive default settings - my hynix also can work at these settings and i even made it work at 2000 mhz with same timings and voltages but it is just dont add noticeable differences in game process - less then 1% and it also has good warranty of quality

I'm sorry but that's incorrect on all counts. Even if the chips are similar, there's a binning process that takes place, and it's there for a reason. My Hynix-based G.Skill will go to DDR3-1866 just fine. It'll even go to 2133 just fine. It will do neither of these at the best clocks and timings that were available at the time at 1.5V. You have golden chips; good for you. Given the almost nonexistent price hike to 1866 or 2133, were I actually ever going to get DDR3 again, which I won't, I would pay the extra $15 and get RAM actually tested at that speed instead of playing the silicon lottery. Odds are, it'll push further still. Congrats that you can barely squeeze out the stock settings of marginally more expensive memory. Here's the bad news: that marginally more expensive memory can usually go far above 2133.

Also, memory performance is not irrelevant. It's not universally relevant, but some games do make use of faster memory. Spending 1% more on a system, literally, to play that minority of games faster is a worthy investment. Maybe not to you, but it's not going to stop the rest of us here from making that recommendation.

Quote

50% of motherboard price is chipset and minimal needed base for it, 25 is @bells and whristles@ from manufacturer all this 2 more usb and 2 pci slots and 2 sata 3 not really needed in most cases for cheap game machine.

You're right: if you want a crap gaming machine, you can squeeze onto a crap board. Not all of us want crap gaming machines. I don't know why you would assume we do.

Maybe you don't have the budgets to throw around for good SLI or Crossfire setups, or own more than a single USB 3 device, or don't care about enthusiast overclocking. Stop speaking for everyone.

Quote

Note that the REAL watts for this PSU at 12v line is 400-200=200 watts all other is just @marketing@ and this is too expensive for 200 watts.

No.

And that pretty much ends my heroic attempt to take you seriously, sorry. You might be able to peddle bad advice and misunderstanding elsewhere, but we will correct you on it here.

Quote

Yes, but the easiest way to detect bad psu is using my Real watts method - if @brand@ lie this is bad @brand@ if it have 90 - 95% from its psu name in REAL WATTS then its good.

No, the easiest way is to not buy a crap model from a crap brand. Your "real watts" method is something you made up in your armchair, that tells you nothing about the unit. It tells you nothing about its potential to even reliably power components, let alone whether it'll be a lasting unit, or whether it's appropriate for overclocking.

It doesn't give any clue as to the unit's manufacturer (and no, sorry, but a Superflower unit is not the same as a Hantol unit), it tells you nothing about whether you're getting the good voltage regulation, or ripple, or even efficiency.

Maybe you can give this kind of advice elsewhere, but it's not going to fly here.

Edited by Catamount, 07 December 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[EXEOBUREC]

Catamount, on 07 December 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

I'm sorry but that's incorrect on all counts.
And that pretty much ends my heroic attempt to take you seriously, sorry. You might be able to peddle bad advice and misunderstanding elsewhere, but we will correct you on it here.

WOW - Take it easy)) i just try to help ts get best rigs for his money 30$ on memory may be used for better graphic card for example with better overall effect.
Believe me i am more than 12 years in this theme and i know how the prices we see in shops are forming also note that i dont recommend to buy @crappy@ brand as you thought - just be sure that items are really worth as much as you payed for it - in most cases you can buy good solid items with 20% of manufacturer margin instead of 75% of @brand@ margin.
Also note that ALL items are stress tested (usually less then 1% of the day volume at factory) and when @brand@ say something like @we test ALL chips@ just ask for web cam link of its testing laboratory and see what they do and try not find Chinese faces in it if they does))

[Catamount]

I fully agree that there are good ways to save money, especially on the PSU front, not a lot of money, but at least to the point of not paying more than you should. There are many ATNG and Superflower units sold by Superflower, or by Rosewill (Newegg's house brand) that often cost far less than comparable Seasonic or Corsair units, and go at least up to the mid-upper range of performance.

But the way to tell if a unit is good is to read reviews and understand things like ripple and voltage regulation. Knowing if a unit is genuinely good requires detailed testing of things you can't determine by looking at a sticker (stickers on which companies very often flat out lie), or by weighing a unit in your hand. If you're out in some computer shop somewhere without the Internet, sure, those might be the only things you have to go off of, but that just means the best way to shop for a PSU is not to walk into a computer store and pick stuff blindly off a shelf

Even then, I would buy a lighter Corsair AX with lower advertised sustained wattage over a heavier no-name unit with a higher advertised sustained wattage any day. Why? Because I know the Corsair AX series. I know almost all the major brand lines, because there aren't many, and 99.99% of what isn't in those lines is junk, whether it's Corsair's low end CXs through their high end AXs, or Rosewill's Capstone or Hive lines (high and low end, but both reliable and well within ATX spec) or any of the Seasonic lines be it the X series or the M12IIs or whatever, and I'm not going to play the lottery and buy something outside of those lines just because it weighs a lot of claims to be able to output a lot, because if I don't know who built it, or what the internal components are, or how it actually holds up in testing, then it's a gamble, and one you'll usually lose.

If a store doesn't sell a good PSU line, a reputable and well-known PSU line, then don't shop there. Insisting on buying there, and picking up the latest 850W "Super Mega X 850" from GoodPower2000 just because it's heavy and claims to put a lot of amps out on the 12v rail(s) and only costs $39.99 on "special" is not a good way to shop for a component you expect to not only last 5+ years, but keep the other $1000+ worth of stuff running.

There's no excuse to do that when you can get a good sale on a Rosewill Arc or Hive or Corsair CX or CXM, or put up the extra dollars to get a unit that's actually good instead of just functional (that's mostly for the OCers and high wattage guys). For those who aren't insanely budget-strapped, getting a good unit is little extra expense. $80-$100 is hardly too much to ask for a $1000+ computer.


I'm not trying to be harsh, but if someone comes on here and reads your posts and gets this idea that they can save money by playing Russian Roulette with their power supply to save $20, then you've just potentially harmed that consumer. I've been doing this for more than a decade, too, and I've bought cheap power supplies on the basis of claimed sustained wattage, Xion and Apevia units (both respectably chunky and dense, but the Apevia unit cheated there because it was made of a thick and heavy metal exterior), and they didn't kill anything, true, because I got lucky. Not everyone gets lucky.

Edited by Catamount, 07 December 2014 - 01:43 PM.

[EXEOBUREC]

just remember MATRIX film - all these @brand are never fail@ are only in your mind) in reality we have just easy many manipulated people that trust to their governments or shop owners without any solid reason just because @other do the same things@ and prefer pretend that government leaders really cares about random citizen more than about having good time with whores and worldwide companies care about any other thing than money making - you can easily discover the truth - just try to look at other side instead of tv or @independent@ reviews at BIG tech sites - most materials at this sites are just for money making and you can easily found some @numbers magic@ or ignoring obvious disadvantages and focus at advantages - the worst of them often even try to persuade you that disadvantages is advantages)))
Truth is that we live in false democratic world where rules greedy liars that make others trust in money religion? and because of it no one company interested in dealing really good things. For example i have refrigerator, that was made at plan economy age of USSR with only one purpose - people that have it must not have need of any other refrigerator as long as possible - because plan sounds like @each soviet family must have refrigerator@ you have it for free and nobody want to give you another one when this are broke. It was made at military factory (as almost all ussr home devices) at 1962 and for now it works more than 50 years 24/7 without ANY attention - we even never take a look behind them because it is dusty place)) and only thing that broke is the doorhandle because once heavy stuff falls on it. I cant be sure that any of so called @brand@ companies ever made thing like this - just because it means that they never sell another such thing to those, who buy one - instead of this they make crap that only purpose is to broke AFTER 1-5 years of warranty because it is profitable..

Edited by EXEOBUREC, 07 December 2014 - 01:56 PM.

[Catamount]

Uh huh. I'll tell you what, brah, you can go buy the latest no-name high-wattage unit from no-name brand X because a sticker on it claims high amperage and it feels like a brick in order to make a political statement, and rant on about wild conspiracy theories... about computer power supplies , and me, I'll just go buy units that actually work.

And when yours is catching on fire, you can chant "it's all in your head" or "there is no spoon" or "there's no place like home" or "this is all an illusion by the evil Illuminati lizard people New World Order" all you want to make it go away.


You will not, however, give that advice to others here uncriticized, because it's bad advice, end of story. Please find somewhere else to peddle it.

Edited by Catamount, 07 December 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[Odins Fist]

Mobo: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16813157521 $99.99
.
CPU: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16819116899 $234.99- i5-4670K 3.4GHz
.
RAM: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16820233300 $89.99
.
PSU: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817438028 $79.99- 700 Watt (+12V@62A) Single Rail
.
HD: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16822178291 $88.99
.
GPU: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814487077 $389.99- Evga GTX 970
.
DVD/CD: http://www.newegg.co...N82E16827106393 $12.99

$997.00

RE-USE your old case. LOL


http://www.newegg.co...N82E16835181060 $114.99 .. LOL

Edited by Odins Fist, 07 December 2014 - 02:47 PM.

[xWiredx]

Catamount, on 07 December 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

You will not, however, give that advice to others here uncriticized, because it's bad advice, end of story. Please find somewhere else to peddle it.

Besides, everybody else here already knows I'm the crazy PSU guy. Seasonic or bust. No need for rants when the solution is that simple for power supply fanatics.

In other news, in the 500-1000 range, why do I not see more Seasonic PSUs? PSUs OEMed by Seasonic for other brands are also acceptable.

[Catamount]

Seasonic tends to get edged out a lot in pricing, especially by Rosewill, EVGA and Corsair (Corsair always has those damned mail-ins for like 60% of the PSU price). Last I checked on that and performance, I still plan to use one next year, but I also don't plan on sparing expense.

Edited by Catamount, 07 December 2014 - 02:53 PM.

[xWiredx]

I haven't had a non-Seasonic PSU in a decade. In higher price ranges heading toward 1000, there's pretty much no reason not to spend the extra 5-30 (depending on the PSU rating and features). In the 1000 range you can easily build a system with nice, overclockable components, and a clean energy feed is preferred then.

[Goose]

I'm chuck-full of PC Power & Cooling, myself, but contrary to popular opinion, I'm trying to keep the budgets of the systems I post under control, so I keep getting all these PSUs that where reviewed as better then FAIL.

[Goose]

http://www.tomshardw...rands,3762.html

http://www.tomshardw...ption,3066.html

http://www.tomshardw...rence,3061.html

[Catamount]

I tend to feel the same way on budget-limited builds. There are relatively cheap PSUs that will get you 85% of the way to enthusiast grade performance, with ripple and regulation that are fractions of the ATX spec and efficiency that's only a percentage point or four shy of easily making gold.

Sure, if you're running that break-neck OC where stability depends on getting 1.27v instead of your sub-$100 PSU dropping you to 1.268 on occasion, the cleanest power available is a must. When I was on a budget, I didn't have the money to spend on that, let alone a board that would take advantage of it, so I spent a mere $140 on an Asrock Extreme 4 and a $60 Rosewill Hive 650 that manages ripple and voltage variance that are about half of spec and was able to deliver just shy of 800W in Hardware Secrets' testing. That's more than enough to power my system, including overclocks that are temperature-bound anyways.

Next year I don't plan to be as frugal (this system was giften to me to replace my Phenom II; I had little money of my own at the time). I actually will probably go with the highest end Seasonic I can get, because I like them too, but it's a different budget I'm looking at there. I'm not going to throw such units into $500-$800 builds.

Edited by Catamount, 08 December 2014 - 07:23 AM.

[Lord Letto]

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4690K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($219.99 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: Foxconn H97M Plus Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($77.98 @ Newegg)
Memory: Pareema 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($68.98 @ Newegg)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 160GB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($19.49 @ Amazon)
Video Card: HIS Radeon R7 260X 1GB Video Card ($104.99 @ Newegg)
Case: DIYPC DIY-5823BK (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case ($22.98 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: CoolMax 650W ATX Power Supply ($39.99 @ Mwave)
Optical Drive: Lite-On iHAS124-14 DVD/CD Writer ($12.99 @ Amazon)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) ($98.98 @ OutletPC)
Total: $666.37
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-08 10:33 EST-0500

[Odins Fist]

I cannot recommend Coolmax or Diablotek PSUs..
Or BLUE series WD drives, too slow.

Foxconn I haven't bought (for other's builds) for a couple of years either.

Edited by Odins Fist, 08 December 2014 - 12:05 PM.

[Smokeyjedi]

Odins Fist, on 08 December 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

I cannot recommend Coolmax or Diablotek PSUs..
Or BLUE series WD drives, too slow.

Foxconn I haven't bought (for other's builds) for a couple of years either.

I wouldnt recommend a blue either but almost choked on tea when I saw it 19.99$+tax lol, thats dirty dirt cheap buy two and RAID em for 40$.......lol

[Catamount]

I might be able to be moved to get a Coolmax PSU if it had stellar reviews, but that 650W unit has none and we know little about it.

It has no 80+ certification. In fact, Newegg lists the efficiency as "no" , it has no PFC of any kind, not even passive, it's not made by a reputable manufacturer (the UL number goes right back to Coolmax), and there are no reviews on it. I would not dare to hook that unit up to one of my systems.

Fine build overall, Letto, but try again on that power supply, and look at the bright side, when you've changed it your price probably won't be 666 anymore

[Oderint dum Metuant]

I'll just drop my head in here to say this.

If you buy a no name high wattage psu to save yourself 30 bucks/pounds/rubles then you deserve every ounce of hellfire you get.