418 replies to this topic

[Tastian]

EgoSlayer, on 06 October 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

Remove ghost heat and apply the hardpoint sizing to these builds and explain how it fixes anything:
in no particular order

Hunchback 4P
Firestarter 9A
Warhawk Prime
Nova Prime
Dire Wolf Prime
Mad Dog A

And I am sure there are several others. Cherry picking a few chassis and showing how they are "fixed" doesn't mean anything when you avoid the really problematic ones. Sized hard points doen't fix anything except removing a few builds that some people don't like, the still working builds without ghost heat are much, much worse.

Egoslayer.

You are absolutely correct. There are still problem stock boat builds like the ones you mentioned above. And I'll be honest when I say that I do not have the best solution.

Firestarter 9A - 8x [1 crit] energy. This is 8 medium lasers on a small mech that could move at 150kph. It would be incredibly hot and probably not viable.

Hunchback 4P - 9x [1 crit] energy. 9 medium lasers on a medium mech. This used to be a terror in closed beta. Its hot. Restore Medium laser max range maybe.

Nova Prime - 12x [1 crit] energy. 12 er medium lasers. They are so hot now that even 6 will put you close to shutting down.

Maddog A - 6x [1 crit] missile. 6 srm6s (NO artemis) or 6 LRM5s. This may be manageable.

Warhawk Prime - 4x [2 crit] energy. The Warhawk was designed to fire 4 ERPPCs or 4 CERLarge Lasers. Maybe put the same restriction on firing Clan ERPPCs as the firing more then 2 Gauss Rifles. Or put a quirk on the Warhawk Prime

Dire Wolf Prime - 8x [1 crit] energy. This could potentially be 8 C ERLarge Lasers (but not 8 ERPPCs). This is bad. Unless we adopted Weapon class limitations over crit limitations. In other words, C ER Large Lasers are Class 2 weapons and couldn't fit in Class 1 Slots. (In that case it would be 4x [class 1] energy, and 4x [class 2] energy which would allow 4x erlarge but not 8xerlarge)

Edited by Tastian, 06 October 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[Xtrekker]

Roland, on 06 October 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Well, with hardpoints sized based on type (ie. small/med/large) rather than specific crit sizes, that would basically eliminate the issue you describe here.

Even though they are the same size in terms of crits, those different weapons may not necessarily fit within the same hardpoint.

Right, that's basically what I was saying by giving weapons "classes". Small, medium, large, class 2, etc...all same same.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

process, on 06 October 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:

I like hardpoint size limits in theory, but when I think back to Mechwarrior 4, there were so many chassis I avoided because of it. The quirk system is a much better way to encourage people to use "ideal" weapons.

The hardpoint system got better with a certain mod which shifted over to 'micro-slots.'

So instead of a PPC being 3 slots, it was 8; Medium Lasers went from 1 slot to 3, Large Lasers went from 1 slot to 6, etc etc.

The major point is that certain mechs could mount a Gauss Rifle but not an LBX20 or a mech might be able to mount an AC5 but not the UAC5. It is things like that that help differentiate the mechs a little better.

[Ultimax]

Roland, on 06 October 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Well, with hardpoints sized based on type (ie. small/med/large) rather than specific crit sizes, that would basically eliminate the issue you describe here.

Even though they are the same size in terms of crits, those different weapons may not necessarily fit within the same hardpoint.

Really?

Tell me how it eliminates DWF Prime with Quad CERLLAS and Warhawk Prime with Quad CERPPCs?

Tell me how it fixes those pods I can then move to any other variant?

Yeah go ahead, remove Ghost Heat at that point. I dare you.



Restricting this will still create a lotto of winners and losers.

Just because some players are too myopic or tunnel visioned on this idea thinking it doesn't mean those vast ramifications won't occur.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Really?

Tell me how it eliminates DWF Prime with Quad CERLLAS and Warhawk Prime with Quad CERPPCs?

Tell me how it fixes those pods I can then move to any other variant?

Yeah go ahead, remove Ghost Heat at that point. I dare you.



Restricting this will still create a lotto of winners and losers.

Just because some players are too myopic or tunnel visioned on this idea thinking it doesn't mean those vast ramifications won't occur.

Well first things first, this has been mostly an exercise in IS mechs.

Omnimechs are another beast all together.

Secondly, the whole heat scale is still stupid and could do with some changes to maximum threshold, dissipation and adding scaling penalties once you get above 60% would be really helpful as well.

Anyone fighting to keep Ghost Heat is a total tool who should quit this game.

[Xtrekker]

The funny thing, I see this as actually encouraging diversity on the field. A lot of people in here are talking about limiting their options, but honestly everyone in MWO just seems to try and figure out how to shove the same builds into different chassis. I don't want to remove customization either, but I think the process can be slightly less open-ended to encourage role warfare and give mechs the personalities they deserve.

[Tastian]

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Really?

Tell me how it eliminates DWF Prime with Quad CERLLAS and Warhawk Prime with Quad CERPPCs?

Tell me how it fixes those pods I can then move to any other variant?

Yeah go ahead, remove Ghost Heat at that point. I dare you.



Restricting this will still create a lotto of winners and losers.

Just because some players are too myopic or tunnel visioned on this idea thinking it doesn't mean those vast ramifications won't occur.

This isn't tunnel vision, it's brainstorming. If we did have class or crit slot hardpoint limitations, how would you propose fixing specific builds like the Dire Wolf Prime and Warhawk Prime. You seem adamant that it would not work. But even now people gravitate towards certain builds. Look how popular the DireWhale and TWolf are now. Instead of poo pooing the idea, try to imagine a solution.

[AdamBaines]

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Bringing the game "closer to stock" doesn't solve anything. It will divide the community, and anger a lot of players.

Ummmm.....Im guessing your on these forums a lot so you should know.....the community is divided and always will be, period. Traditional Btechers Vs. Super Customization Crew. It will always be so. And you will always anger player bases. This is not a vaild argument for what the OP proposes. You do make other good points. Not this one.

Tastian, on 06 October 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

....on taking Russ up on his challenge......

I appreciate the work you put into this OP. More then just complaining about something, your actually trying to come up with a solution and thinking.

I appreciate that, no matter if I agree or disagree with you.

[CDLord HHGD]

This doesn't have to be that hard. Here's my idea and the data fills itself in.

Have two size categories; Large and Small. Make it so Large can fit Small, but Small cannot fit Large.

Next, classify weapons into either of these two categories.
Small: TAG, SL, ML, MG, AC2, AC5, NARC, SRM2, SRM4, LRM5, LRM10.
Large: LL, PPC, AC10, AC20, Gauss, SRM6, LRM15, LRM20.
*These include weapon variants like pulse, streak, artemis, ER, etc.

Then, use the stock loadout of each variant to dictate the size of the hardpoint.

Done.

Bonus: You can say 3 or 4 Small hardpoints can equal a Large hardpoint (to allow the HBK-4P to carry a PPC or two). HOWEVER, that does not mean that 3 or 4 small weapons will fit into a Large hardpoint. Cannot swap 1 AC20 hardpoint for 4 Machine Guns. One large hardpoint can only mount one weapon. Period.

Edit: Post 69, awwwwww yeah!

Edited by cdlord, 06 October 2014 - 01:18 PM.

[Xanquil]

As much as I like the sized hardpoint Idea, as it would make the geometry or specific mechs look right. It has a few massive issues;
1: Some stock mechs bypass tis system all together do to being built as boats.
2: Because of #1 it will not get rid of ghost heat.
3: It does nothing to get rid of the real issue that ghost heat was put in to try and fix. (The "magic alpha")
4: It reduces the amount of viable mechs (see #1), and makes some players want refunds because said mech is no longer viable. (Madcat JJ "nerf" x20+)
5:Effects the IS mechs a lot more than it would ever effect clan mechs (again see #1)

In all honesty sized hardpoints would cause as many problems ghost heat did and still not get rid of ghost heat.

Edited by Xanquil, 06 October 2014 - 01:15 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Really?

Tell me how it eliminates DWF Prime with Quad CERLLAS and Warhawk Prime with Quad CERPPCs?

The Dire Wolf Prime arms are an easy fix, remove the ability to mount anything larger than a UAC5, done.
Same with the B side torsos, in other words if you want to run Gauss on a Dire, it has to be the arm with only 1 Ballistic hardpoint.
Suddenly the Laser Vomit build loses its luster as the Gauss are a huge boost to the build, and the Giga spike build is no longer viable.

As for quad ERLL, that won't be near as much damage considering the current build is doing more damage than that albeit at a shorter range.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 06 October 2014 - 01:18 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Been reading the thread. I think the big argument is how to class the weapons by size, versus tracking every crit specifically, and I think it might even be unnecessary. This is really a compromise between the two and I think, overall, it'd fit the bill:

This this is what I propose:

Level 1 Hardpoint: 1 Crit - (Small / Medium Lasers, Machine Guns, TAGs, etc.)
Level 2 Hardpoint: 1-2 Crits - (Large Lasers, AC2s, LRM10s)
Level 3 Hardpoint: 3-4 Crits - (PPCs, AC5s, LRM15s)
Level 4 Hardpoint: 5-7 Crits - (Gauss, AC10s, LRM20s, etc.)
Level 5 Hardpoint: 8-10 Crits - (AC20)

Stalker

Misery
RA: .2x Level 2 Energy
LA: .2x Level 2 Energy
RT: 1x Level 2 Missile.
LT: .1x Level 5 Ballistic
HD: .0x
CT: .1x Level 2 Energy
RL: .0x
LL: .0x

STK-5S
RA: .2x Level 2 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
LA: .2x Level 2 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
RT: 1x Level 3 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
LT: .1x Level 3 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
HD: .0x
CT: .0x
RL: .0x
LL: .0x

STK-5M
RA: .1x Level 3 Missile, 2x Level 2 Energy
LA: .1x Level 3 Missile, 2x Level 2 Energy
RT: 1x Level 2 Missile
LT: .2x Level 2 Missile
HD: .0x
CT: .1x Level 2 Energy
RL: .0x
LL: .0x

STK-4N
RA: .1x Level 2 Energy 1x Level 3 Energy 1x Level 2 Missile
LA: .1x Level 2 Energy 1x Level 3 Energy
RT: 1x Level 2 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
LT: .1x Level 2 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
HD: .0x
CT: .0x
RL: .0x
LL: .0x

STK-3H
RA: .1x Level 4 Missile, 2x Level 1 Energy
LA: .1x Level 4 Missile, 2x Level 1 Energy
RT: 1x Level 2 Missile
LT: .1x Level 2 Missile
HD: .0x
CT: .0x
RL: .0x
LL: .0x

STK-3F
RA: .1x Level 1 Energy 1x Level 2 Energy 1x Level 2 Missile
LA: .1x Level 1 Energy 1x Level 2 Energy 1x Level 2 Missile
RT: 1x Level 3 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
LT: .1x Level 3 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
HD: .0x
CT: .0x
RL: .0x
LL: .0x

----

Obviously some testing/tweaking would be needed with all of this, but I think this format would be a little easier to present in a mechlab than listing specific crits for each hardpoint, and the above example shows how every single Stalker variant could play differently despite having very, very similar hardpoints. (Yes there's a lot of level 2s in there, but that's the nature of the Stalker, really).

It utterly destroys the ability for the Stalker to PPC boat (though can still carry some PPCs) and focuses it more on laser & missile arrays, with a lot of small launchers.

I'll probably edit in another 'mech in a bit, one with a more diverse hardpoint setup.

ED: And yes, this would radically change Omnis as well, so it does in fact address that very thing.

Edited by Victor Morson, 06 October 2014 - 01:34 PM.

[Scratx]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 October 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

Anyone fighting to keep Ghost Heat is a total tool who should quit this game.

I don't like Ghost Heat. I like what it is trying to accomplish. Therefore, I would rather have it than not have it, because the alternative is far worse.

I don't like sized hardpoints because it's not a solution to the problem Ghost Heat is trying to fix. Just as an example, Nova Prime full alpha. 84 points of damage for 72 heat, currently. This does NOT shut down your mech if you have double basics, IIRC. Without Ghost Heat, you can full alpha once before cooling off. That's, again, 84 points of hitscan damage in 1.25 seconds. Even the Dire Whale with dual gauss and dual ERPPC would be impressed.

I really don't need to tell you it's a problem build that Ghost Heat handily smacks down to somewhere reasonable, do I?

Again, I don't like Ghost Heat. But it's a necessary evil.

Convergence-related arguments aside, the root of the problem is that, without ghost heat, you can fire every weapon you want at the same time. Got a hundred guns? You can fire all of them at once. This leads to ridiculous alpha potential that BT mechs just can't possibly cope with. Increasing armor isn't going to make this problem any less. The only solution to this is either imposing soft limitations (like ghost heat) or imposing hard limitations (like a power budget system that lets you fire only so many guns) which largely prevents the problem to begin with.


I'm sorry, OP, but your solution is not a solution for the problem everyone wants to find an alternative fix for.

[Johnny Z]

I admit my thing is not the finer points of balance. But the sized hard points does sound promising.

The more I think about it, the more I like it. The Catapult comes to mind as a mech that because of the large missile racks should have a bonus to the hard point sizes etc, TW also.

At face value sized hard points is an excellent idea. This isa complex combat system so it would take someone who has been following this for some time to truly have a grasp on this.

Something simple for guys like me to get a look at it and see if it is workable would be nice.

Edited by Johnny Z, 06 October 2014 - 01:36 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Scratx, on 06 October 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

I don't like Ghost Heat. I like what it is trying to accomplish. Therefore, I would rather have it than not have it, because the alternative is far worse.

The key word is "trying." It does not succeed in ANY of it's goals except to make this a worse game by far. Anyone who goes "Hurr hurr 6 PPC Stalker" isn't considering the fact that the raised PPC heat (nearly double) that took place was the ONLY thing to really kill it. People just stagger fired 6 PPC Stalkers on a macro until that happened, and the good players always used 4.. again, until that happened.

Ghost Heat was not even remotely responsible for getting rid of the 6 PPC Stalker, but rather, the immediate change to PPC heat not one week later.

Scratx, on 06 October 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

I don't like sized hardpoints because it's not a solution to the problem Ghost Heat is trying to fix. Just as an example, Nova Prime full alpha. 84 points of damage for 72 heat, currently. This does NOT shut down your mech if you have double basics, IIRC

That sounds like a balance problem with the weapons, same as the PPCs. If you can fire tons of powerful weapons for pinpoint damage, the guns need looking at, not ridiculous poorly documented (if I'm being generous) systems with no UI.

Edited by Victor Morson, 06 October 2014 - 01:39 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Victor Morson, on 06 October 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

Been reading the thread. I think the big argument is how to class the weapons by size, versus tracking every crit specifically, and I think it might even be unnecessary. This is really a compromise between the two and I think, overall, it'd fit the bill:

This this is what I propose:

Level 1 Hardpoint: 1 Crit - (Small / Medium Lasers, Machine Guns, TAGs, etc.)
Level 2 Hardpoint: 1-2 Crits - (Large Lasers, AC2s, LRM10s)
Level 3 Hardpoint: 3-4 Crits - (PPCs, AC5s, LRM15s)
Level 4 Hardpoint: 5-7 Crits - (Gauss, AC10s, LRM20s, etc.)
Level 5 Hardpoint: 8-10 Crits - (AC20)

Stalker

Misery
RA: .2x Level 2 Energy
LA: .2x Level 2 Energy
RT: 1x Level 2 Missile.
LT: .1x Level 5 Ballistic
HD: .0x
CT: .1x Level 2 Energy
RL: .0x
LL: .0x

STK-5S
RA: .2x Level 2 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
LA: .2x Level 2 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
RT: 1x Level 3 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
LT: .1x Level 3 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
HD: .0x
CT: .0x
RL: .0x
LL: .0x

STK-5M
RA: .1x Level 3 Missile, 2x Level 2 Energy
LA: .1x Level 3 Missile, 2x Level 2 Energy
RT: 1x Level 2 Missile
LT: .2x Level 2 Missile
HD: .0x
CT: .1x Level 2 Energy
RL: .0x
LL: .0x

STK-4N
RA: .1x Level 2 Energy 1x Level 3 Energy 1x Level 2 Missile
LA: .1x Level 2 Energy 1x Level 3 Energy
RT: 1x Level 2 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
LT: .1x Level 2 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
HD: .0x
CT: .0x
RL: .0x
LL: .0x

STK-3H
RA: .1x Level 4 Missile, 2x Level 1 Energy
LA: .1x Level 4 Missile, 2x Level 1 Energy
RT: 1x Level 2 Missile
LT: .1x Level 2 Missile
HD: .0x
CT: .0x
RL: .0x
LL: .0x

STK-3F
RA: .1x Level 1 Energy 1x Level 2 Energy 1x Level 2 Missile
LA: .1x Level 1 Energy 1x Level 2 Energy 1x Level 2 Missile
RT: 1x Level 3 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
LT: .1x Level 3 Energy, 1x Level 2 Missile
HD: .0x
CT: .0x
RL: .0x
LL: .0x

----

Obviously some testing/tweaking would be needed with all of this, but I think this format would be a little easier to present in a mechlab than listing specific crits for each hardpoint, and the above example shows how every single Stalker variant could play differently despite having very, very similar hardpoints. (Yes there's a lot of level 2s in there, but that's the nature of the Stalker, really).

It utterly destroys the ability for the Stalker to PPC boat (though can still carry some PPCs) and focuses it more on laser & missile arrays, with a lot of small launchers.

I'll probably edit in another 'mech in a bit, one with a more diverse hardpoint setup.

ED: And yes, this would radically change Omnis as well, so it does in fact address that very thing.

It would be nice if this showed the most devestating potential load out like ERLL HP size 3 or what ever it would be. Trying to come up with what could fit into each of the slots is to much for noobs like me to translate

[Scratx]

Victor Morson, on 06 October 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

The key word is "trying." It does not succeed in ANY of it's goals except to make this a worse game by far. Anyone who goes "Hurr hurr 6 PPC Stalker" isn't considering the fact that the raised PPC heat (nearly double) that took place was the ONLY thing to really kill it. People just stagger fired 6 PPC Stalkers on a macro until that happened, and the good players always used 4.. again, until that happened.

Ghost Heat was not even remotely responsible for getting rid of the 6 PPC Stalker, but rather, the immediate change to PPC heat not one week later.

Yep. It is only partially successful at best. I honestly want Ghost Heat gone, replaced by a better system. But that's the key, I don't want it gone and everything else left as it is. That will just make things worse than they are right now.

And hardpoint size limitations won't do the job, either.

[CDLord HHGD]

I hate the thought that some of the ideas posted may get lost in the pages upon pages of stuff....

[Victor Morson]

Scratx, on 06 October 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

And hardpoint size limitations won't do the job, either.

This would literally be able to make any 'mech only be able to boat as much as specifically given by the developers, so I think it would help dramatically. In the above example, the most a Stalker could carry for example is 2 PPCs and 4 Large Lasers (on the 5S), and that would run very very hot. Still with the burn times and such, I don't see it being a problem.

3-4 Large Laser builds were one of the biggest things Ghost Heat absolutely slaughtered, but were a ton of fun and honestly, very well balanced for heat/damage/damage spread.

If this actually happens we'd probably want to look at the tiers all over again though. The Awesome, being able to carry 4 PPCs, would probably need negative quirks to turn rate or the like in the new landscape.

Edited by Victor Morson, 06 October 2014 - 01:46 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Really?

Tell me how it eliminates DWF Prime with Quad CERLLAS and Warhawk Prime with Quad CERPPCs?

Tell me how it fixes those pods I can then move to any other variant?

Yeah go ahead, remove Ghost Heat at that point. I dare you.

Are you serious? A Warhawk that only has 3 "large" energy hardpoints across all its omnipods is unable to mount quad PPCs. Same happens if you go by crit. size instead of large/medium/small - only 3 energy hardpoints larger than 1 crit. in size only allow you to pack up to 3 PPCs.

Out of curiosity, why do you want to eliminate quad large lasers on a DWF? It's not even a good build.