60 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Interestingly I dont have a radar derp and yet I still avoid dying by missiles, dont play ECM and hardly ever run AMS.

By all the threads I see complaining about LRMs, that should be impossible, right?

[Lynx7725]

Ow. A lot of different stories about targeting, ATD and RD.

My experience with RD equipped unit is that, even with ATD, you can lose locks very quickly. It's hard to say under combat conditions whether it's immediate or ATD helps a bit, but essentially RD is still very good at breaking locks. Remember that target sharing can result in an RD equipped unit still being locked by you if your teammate has LOS to him, AND ATD would still apply to that lock, so a lot of things is very confused on the battlefield.

The key thing to remember is that RD kicks in once there is no LOS between shooter and target. Doesn't matter who initiated the LOS breaking. But if the target is still being locked and shared by a teammate, it'll still continue to show up. That's why in the initial phases of a game RD is very useful, but it progressively degrades in effectiveness as the engagement distances shrink.

ATD does nothing other than extend the locks. It doesn't allow you to magically lock up targets under ECM -- someone still has to either negate the ECM, TAG or NARC the sucker. ATD just extends the lock times once somebody did that, allowing you a slightly longer window to do harm to it.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

It was my first module purchased, but... honestly, it's not something you should need a module for. Targeting systems in BT are line-of-sight; as soon as your target is out of sight, you should lose lock. Period. Target decay is idiotic. How can your computer see through solid cover to tell what your former target is doing several seconds after you can't even see it anymore? Really? Radar dep is a band-aid over a feature that shouldn't exist in the first place.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Aron, on 07 October 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

Definately not OP, I still get hit with LRMs frequently (No Narc ..) it just gives you a chance to avoid them by taking cover! EMC might be a different issue but still Radar Deprivation and EMC made the game fun/playable for me again.

So I'd appreciate changes done to both ECM and LRMs at the same time, otherwise it's a plain LRM buff!

I am with you here. LRM spam can get overwhelming at times and ECM and RD are what makes it bearable and keeps LRMs from being OPed. Change or remove ECM and RD and you would have to nerf LRMs.

[SgtMagor]

RD is useful but hardly OP, I get hit often with missiles , and sometimes even hiding behind objects I seem to get blasted with even more missiles than usual, is there some type of algorithm there using, seems more like a roll of the dice module 50/50 chance you'll get hit with missiles even when your radar sig is supposed to go null.

[kapusta11]

Radar Deprivation is useless against:

• NARC
  
• UAV
  
• Adv. Target Decay

...thus it is useless in general.

[Xyroc]

I take it on my lights because they need it. If it is made to be weighted equipment this will be just a nerf to lights.

[StalaggtIKE]

Fix for LRM vs ECM:

• Radar needs to be reworked: introducing active and passive radar could help. Also smaller digital footprint for smaller mechs would make smaller mechs more attractive for scouting and recon.
  
• LRM would then need to be made effective without boating and excessive ammo.
  
• AMS would then need to be made into an effective soft counter.
  
• ECM needs to be reworked to only affect radar sharing; however los radar remains unaffected.

Edit: I'd love to see both Target decay and Radar dep removed from game.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 15 October 2014 - 07:01 AM.

[Lily from animove]

one of the most nice things is the opponent when I hide and maneuver does not have as much a chance to guess what I am doing compared to a remaining lock of some seconds. Where am i going, what tactic to where to appear next may I have? you don't know as soon as I am gone.

[Angel of Annihilation]

kapusta11, on 15 October 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

Radar Deprivation is useless against:

• NARC
  
• UAV
  
• Adv. Target Decay

...thus it is useless in general.

Forgot one.

Useless if any enemy mech has you currently locked, even if the LRM boat doesn't have line of sight.

Still I wouldn't count it as useless because it does help reduce your exposure time in some circumstances. However obviously this is going to be very circumstantial so yet again the community is making a mountain out of a mole hill and overstating the usefulness of yet another piece of equipment.

[Almond Brown]

Lily from animove, on 15 October 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

one of the most nice things is the opponent when I hide and maneuver does not have as much a chance to guess what I am doing compared to a remaining lock of some seconds. Where am i going, what tactic to where to appear next may I have? you don't know as soon as I am gone.

I would guess that is/was the main intent of RD. The spin off affects LRM's as well, but not knowing where you last contact went, is good for them and can be bad for you. 3.5 seconds with ATD active means you get a pretty good idea where they went, even if you can't fire your missiles.

[Ultimax]

Mister D, on 07 October 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

IMO, its far too powerful and should be weighted equipment.

We could say the same for Shared Locks, which doesn't take up any weight nor does it require a module slot.

And then there is Adv Targeting decay, which really can get a bit ridiculous at times.

[topgun505]

THIS. Eliminate Target Decay and Radar Deprivation modules, refund all cbills and GXP to those who bought them and change the LOS vs lock on behaviors to this and things would be in some semblence of balance.

PS WrathOfDeadguy, on 14 October 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

It was my first module purchased, but... honestly, it's not something you should need a module for. Targeting systems in BT are line-of-sight; as soon as your target is out of sight, you should lose lock. Period. Target decay is idiotic. How can your computer see through solid cover to tell what your former target is doing several seconds after you can't even see it anymore? Really? Radar dep is a band-aid over a feature that shouldn't exist in the first place.

[Angel of Annihilation]

topgun505, on 15 October 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

THIS. Eliminate Target Decay and Radar Deprivation modules, refund all cbills and GXP to those who bought them and change the LOS vs lock on behaviors to this and things would be in some semblence of balance.

The whole point of LRMs is indirect fire support. In order to provide indirect fire support they need spotters. To be a spotter you need to have shared target locks.

Seriously guys think about things a bit before you make suggestions that just don't make sense or only effect your preferred style of game play.

[Ultimax]

Viktor Drake, on 15 October 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

The whole point of LRMs is indirect fire support. In order to provide indirect fire support they need spotters. To be a spotter you need to have shared target locks.

And shared target locks costs ZERO weight, and ZERO module slots.

So yeah, as long as that stays, and Adv Target Decay stays then ECM and Radar Dep are fine.

[crashlogic]

Ok, LRMS are meant for fire support. LRM boats were always intended in Battletech, to sit back and rain on the enemy. A poor LRM player sits behind cover a fires salvo after salvo at targets that can easily find cover. One reason I like my oxide as an LRM boat is that I can avoid the missiles coming my way rather easily, and I don't use radar dep.
If the LRM pilot doesn't think about their targets, the radar dep will make very difficult to sit back and kill mechs that are on the reverse slope of a ridge doing the walktart dance. On the otherhand, a good LRM player is looking for locks, or helping the team out by getting their own locks, and hoping everyone with available LRMS hits that target. But this takes a lot of team work and is still less than effective against RD (add in AMS and slow LRMs flight time, and LRMS are hardly a threat to a mobile mech).
The real key, and where my 500+ damage games come in (a real feat with 3 lrm5's and one lrm10) is when I can find an opponent brawling with my team mates. At this point radar dep and mobility are not going to help that pilot, even if they are not narced or tagged. Teamwork keeps the target pinned and LRMs rain down. The more the merrier. But...and its a huge but...what is killing mechs is not LRMs, but teamwork, and a solid knowledge of how your weapons are best used.

[Moomtazz]

Mawai, on 07 October 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

LRMs are the only weapon in the game where EVERY mech on the opposing team can fire at one target if they like because line of sight is not required. In most situations, terrain will limit regular direct line of sight weapons to 1 to 3 opponents (more than that and they start getting in each others way for the most part). However, with LRMs, I have seen 6 or more mechs located all over the battlefield spamming one target ... it does not last long under these circumstances. THAT is the true power and the issue with LRMs ... one mech boating them isn't that big a deal ... but when almost every clan mech has an LRM of some sort as a back up if nothing else ... when you add dedicated LRM boats and the occasional launcher on other mechs ... none of whom need line of sight (only the spotter or UAV or NARC) ... then LRMs quickly destroy most opponents ... opponents who can typically do nothing about it. This is generally frustrating and not much fun.

This is my main gripe about LRMs.

[Moomtazz]

PS WrathOfDeadguy, on 14 October 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

It was my first module purchased, but... honestly, it's not something you should need a module for. Targeting systems in BT are line-of-sight; as soon as your target is out of sight, you should lose lock. Period. Target decay is idiotic. How can your computer see through solid cover to tell what your former target is doing several seconds after you can't even see it anymore? Really? Radar dep is a band-aid over a feature that shouldn't exist in the first place.

That is how I remembered it from when I played TT (granted 20+years ago). I said this in another thread and someone said they had infantry spotters in TT. Any idea which is correct?

[Bullseye69]

A single mech with 2 lrms launchers or not op. When you have 6 of your opponents boating 2 lrms each all firing at you is when lrms or op. The rd allows at distance a chance to break line of sight to the lrm volleys which is what it designed for. It does nothing against tag or narcs.

By itself as far as lrms go when you add narc and add ecm and add 4 launchers to you mech and multiple that by 6 other mech with launcher is were lrms get op and rd does nothing to counter it.

Yes you should be able to run what you want but their need to be a counter to it, multiple lrms have no counter when fired form multiple mechs so lets increase the ams effectiveness or allow all mech the ability to carry 2 ams not just certain models and allow those that wish to to mount the ams buff module along with rader derp and then you just migh have a far fight unless we all want to battle in tunnel caves or under the platform in crimson map.

As far as tag goes why is the range 750 which allow almost no weapon to do full damage at that range. If you going to allow mech to tag at that range then those mech should have a chance of getting wacked for the chance to use tag. Decrease the range of tag to what a standard large laser has maybe some in the 550 to 600 meter range. The medium laser cant do damage at that range and it would take large laser or ppc or er variant to do damage at that range or a gauss or one of the smaller ac make it so you have to pay to use the tag ie if you stick you head out to tag for the team you have a chance of getting it shoot off.

Just a few rambling from a closed beta tester and current player.

One other thing decrease the shake from the lrms a lot of time getting rattled around by mechs running 3 to 5 lrms 5 the shake is bad it also excessive form clan lrms.

[Glythe]

RD really needs a bit of a nerf as it is TOO good for what you pay for it.

This guy should really use up 2 module slots..... it is that good.




Target Decay and this should completely nullify each other but right now RD wins. That's just dumb.

Edited by Glythe, 15 October 2014 - 11:29 AM.