72 replies to this topic

[Zolaz]

Well, what is the advantage of a taking a Medium over and Assault or Heavy in the present game? The answer, not much. Correcting the scaling dimensions of Mediums would go a long way if Mediums have less armor and armament than larger chassis.

[YueFei]

Cavale, on 08 October 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

Much thank for correction. I wasn't sure if I was mucking up the Square Cube law yadda yadda, need to stop and think more. I used to be good at math beyond adding and subtracting, but then I got sucked into the trades for five years and all my brains seem to have fallen out my ears.

Thusly if it's mass increases by x³ That means the cross section of any given part should Increase by x², yes? This explains the ramp up from lights to Assaults; the graphs curve. But, yeah, if you wanna get all **** on it, there's your basic numbers, check away with the most obvious chassis.

Yeah no problem. I actually didn't remember it myself.... just somehow I suspected it wasn't triple, so I googled it. Hardly ever use this stuff in my job anyways, so I know how easy it is to forget this stuff.

And yeah the cross section should increase by x².

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

YueFei, on 08 October 2014 - 09:39 PM, said:

That's not exactly how it works. If you double the dimensions of an object, you'll get 8 times the volume. Not triple.

It's a cubic relationship.

Yep. In fact, if we make the reasonable assumption that all mechs have approximately the same density, then I'm pretty sure that most mediums are already about the right size with some actually being too small. Light mechs are far too small for their mass. A spider should be almost as tall as an Atlas because it's so skinny. But hey, space magic.

I think the main reason people feel lights and mediums should be smaller is because they want a light to be able to solo a much larger mech and they can only do this by being hard to hit. But with tiny maps and games modes that all devolve into TDM there's nothing else for lights and mediums to do. If we had objective-based game play on large maps then lights and mediums could be plausible in size and still be very effective.

[El Bandito]

Assault queue 67%? Time to harpoon some whales!

[Tincan Nightmare]

RocketDog, on 08 October 2014 - 11:14 PM, said:

Yep. In fact, if we make the reasonable assumption that all mechs have approximately the same density, then I'm pretty sure that most mediums are already about the right size with some actually being too small. Light mechs are far too small for their mass. A spider should be almost as tall as an Atlas because it's so skinny. But hey, space magic.

I think the main reason people feel lights and mediums should be smaller is because they want a light to be able to solo a much larger mech and they can only do this by being hard to hit. But with tiny maps and games modes that all devolve into TDM there's nothing else for lights and mediums to do. If we had objective-based game play on large maps then lights and mediums could be plausible in size and still be very effective.

What I find funny about the scaling of lights, is that in the TT a light could punch an assault (not so smart a move but possible) and (without looking up the hit location chart) would only hit either the arms, torso locations, and head. No low blows to the legs. Now look at the Commando or Spider (only lights with arms) in MWO and how they scale with the heavier mechs. The only way they could punch another mech in the head was if they did the haduken uppercut from streetfighter. In most of the earlier art from BT (back in the FASA days), lights were drawn much closer in scale to the other weights, its only been in more recent years that new 'scaling' has shown up in this regard for the TT, even if it actually contradicts some rules, such as the punching hit location table I cited above. So honestly PGI might not be totally at fault here, if they were going by those most recent artwork where lights were shrunk. Though it that was the case, I don't see how mediums were then inflated .

edit* (forgot that the Firestarter has arms, and the Clan lights)

Edited by Tincan Nightmare, 09 October 2014 - 01:10 AM.

[BumbleBee]

[Training Instructor]

When you need an offensive tank, you want a heavy tank.

When you want a scout with a bit of firepower, you can just mount an ATM launcher on a Humvee and call it a day.

In tabletop Battletech I routinely used fast vehicles with low battle value as scouts, rather than mechs. They were easy to kill or disable, but their only function was finding out how my opponent was set up when we were playing blind matches. Send in scout vehicle to zoom around and get shot at, overload one side of his formation to create a disparity of firepower, and then win most of the time unless the RNG dice gods hated me that day.

The moral of this story is that light mechs are a really expensive way to scout and fight infantry and vehicles, and most likely would not have existed very long in the timeline. It would be incredibly inefficient to spend 10+ years training someone how to pilot a mech, and then put them in a multi-million cbill light mech whose battlefield role could be fulfilled by a much less expensive conventional ground vehicle or helicopter operated by someone with maybe 6-8 months of training.

Imagine if MWO had helicopters with bap, tag, and a c3 slave?

[LowSubmarino]

Because a lot of maps in mwo are so tiny that there is nothing to scout, not much flanking possible and no safe covered routes for lights to exploit effectively.

if two good teams snipe at each other across the water in river city....what is a light supposed to do? Yeah, he can tag from the north west of the map, at the plane, or run around the buildings at that side a bit, but there just isnt much room there and his movements would be pretty predictable.

Other maps have the same problem. Even if you can make that mech work on those maps. Heavier mechs with more firepower are just way, way more effective on those maps if the players are equally skilled. No matter what anybody says. And that is the reason why most ppl just wont choose lights on these maps and a lot other maps. Why use something that is inferior if you can be much more effective.

I used to run my raven 3l a lot about a year ago. But the legs got nerfed so badly, that it cannot stand up to most other lights anymore. My jenner is a lot of fun, but it pales into insignificance if I compare it to what I can do with the shadowhawk. If I wanne be very effective no matter the map then i simply wouldnt even consider a light. I run them for fun, not because they are a good choice.

Mediums suffer from really small maps too but can pack much more long range firepower and can take quite a bit of beating.

[-Natural Selection-]

Our med lance does work.. You put 3 guys that work well together in them they can be superstars.

[skorpionet]

Heavy and Assault mechs are too fast and agile.

[Dino Might]

A modern tank (M1A1 or successor variant) is about 60 tons. Considering the size of an Atlas, there is no way it's 100 tons as we measure today. Just the amount of metal it uses would dwarf the weight of a modern day tank. So I conclude that the "tons" used in the BT universe are definitely not 1 ton = 2000 lbs. They are more like 1 "ton" = 20000 lbs.

Mediums suffer from similar problems of every other mech class. Some are incredibly good, and some are just a waste of space. The Shawk is amazing. The Treb, not so much. I can cite similar examples of heavies. The Cataphract is great, the Quickdraw, not so much. I think the problem is that fewer people have picked up on the amazing medium builds out there, and there are generally less of those options. I have found mediums to be very hit or miss. The build is either fantastic, or it's utter garbage.

All I ask is that they don't mess with the SHD-2H(P). It's perfect the way it is.

[Karl Streiger]

With given "gameplay" and MM we don't need Light Mechs or Mediums.

The enemy is somewhere in the area - i don't have to cover thousends of square kilometers.
All games play out as "combat patrol" shortly before the first shot is fired.
We don't need scouts.
We may need combat reconnaissance or spotters but thats it. A heavy Mech can spot too.

[-Natural Selection-]

Dino Might, on 09 October 2014 - 01:44 AM, said:

A modern tank (M1A1 or successor variant) is about 60 tons. Considering the size of an Atlas, there is no way it's 100 tons as we measure today. Just the amount of metal it uses would dwarf the weight of a modern day tank. So I conclude that the "tons" used in the BT universe are definitely not 1 ton = 2000 lbs. They are more like 1 "ton" = 20000 lbs.

Is all the metal in a BT mech todays steel? No components are titanium, carbon fiber or future material that might make it bigger but weight the same as todays smaller armored vehicles?

Just wondering, don't know much in the way of some of these things about the game.

[Ens]

what? light sabers are fiction you say!?

[HammerMaster]

Lights are too small.
Mediums are WAY TOO BIG.
Some Medium/Light Engine Cap could be slightly higher
Repair and Rearm not being implemented gives no incentive to economy builds like Lights/Mediums and Beam Boats.

[Tahribator]

I think the limited customization of mediums and lights is a major contributing factor to this. For example, what are the weapons you can mount with decent speed, armor and ammo on IS lights?

Energy: Flamer, SL, ML, LL, ERLL
Missile: SSRM2, SRMs, LRM5
Ballistic: MG, AC2

LL and ERLL builds are usually terrible when not paired with ECM and heavier AC builds are prohibitely heavy. AC2 is in a such state that there's no point in bringing it at all. SL, supposedly "the" weapon of lights, is utter garbage. This leaves lights with just MLs, MGs and Missiles. The differentiating factors of lights just remain as the chassises and their individual quirks/hitboxes. You can only play the same ML, MG and SRM builds so much before you get bored.

How about mediums?

Energy: Flamer, SL, ML, LL, ERLL
Missile: SSRM2, SRMs, LRM5-10
Ballistic: MG, AC2, AC5, UAC5, AC10, LBX10

With the exception of the Shadowhawk, pretty much all you can do is combinations of MLs, SRMs and LRMs. Most of the LL builds are too hot and heavier AC10-LBX10 builds heavily cripple the heat efficiency and speed. AC20/Gauss 'Mechs are possible, but they're so specialized that most of the time they're not effective. The customization of medium 'Mechs are just limited, but still a bit more than lights. I crossed SL and AC2 because they're just terrible weapons, Flamer terrible.

Then, when we move up to the heavy bracker, suddenly we can mount every single weapon in this game pretty comfortably. You can even do balls to the wall and mount two of the heavies weapons in this game(AC20, Gauss). You can comfortably combine LLs, MLs, ACs and have respectable speed and heat efficiency. When effective customization is possible, this game is much more fun. Assaults offer even more customization, you can spend days trying out different combinations according to your personal taste. No wonder these classes are stacked.

Maybe when we get heavy machine guns, lighter ACs and other interesting stuff like MRMs and such, the mediums and lights will be more attractive. But at the moment they just cannot be as flexible as heavier 'Mechs and naturally people gravitate towards them. Speed, the main weakness of Heavies and Assaults doesn't hurt them a lot in MWO, as most matches devolve into static stand-offs. Speed Tweak also benefits them unproportionally compared to lights and mediums.

I'd say remove speed-tweak and you'll see some migration to lights and mediums. Otherwise look into fixing the utterly useless Flamer, SL and AC2 for mid-term and finally introducing more weapons that will bring flexibility to these brackets.

Edited by Tahribator, 09 October 2014 - 05:06 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Zolaz, on 07 October 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

According to Lore Mediums are suppose to be the workhorse mech. However, in MWO it appears that Assaults and Heavies are used way more often. Right now the PUG queue looks like 40% Assault, 38% Heavies, 13% Mediums and the rest in Lights.

It looks like the player base has voted to play in larger and slower mechs. When you try and drop in a queue with a larger population you dont get the mode you want and you get worse players as MM tries to make the game. Are other people not seeing this or do people just want to pilot their Assaults and Heavies that bad?

because in lore not everyone could have a heavy (expensive, not available, or whatever). lorewise matches would have to be 1/2//6/3. But everyone wants to pilot the bog boys, so thats not working in MWO.

Edited by Lily from animove, 09 October 2014 - 05:22 AM.

[Rogen]

Actually the lighter weapons are much more useful that they are in tabletop battletech, especially the Light ACs.
But the light and medium mechs could use some improvements.
I think that best way is in perks and modules. It would be great if there are modules designed specifically for medium and light mechs equipable to those mech only. Fr example various sensor modules could be limited to the lighter mechs, or those mech could be more efficient with those modules.

Another option would be decrease range at which are medium and light mechs are detected, while increasing range at which are assaults detected.

Basically medium and light mechs could be eyes of the team while heavy and assault should have be damage dealers.

[Kirkland Langue]

One reason for this is the way the MM works. So what if the queue is 90% for Heavies? The MM will still put you into a battle in a couple minutes even if the teams aren't balanced. And since the teams aren't going to be balanced anyways - you'd be a fool to gimp your own team by taking a medium. Lights carry just as much firepower, but are much much faster.

[JackkyChan]

I like playing the medium trial mechs because im new and picked a Sommner to start with I have to play medium trial mechs which are pretty good if you don't get hit to many times by multiple assailants.I would say (double the c-bill rewards) for playing mediums and lights and you would probably see a lot of them playing battles.

MWO is a good game im not going to say a great game because it has some flaws but I will be piloting mediums when I get the c-bills to buy and modify one.

Edited by JackkyChan, 09 October 2014 - 06:58 AM.