141 replies to this topic

[Lordred]

So if we Doubled armor to increase the Time to Kill (TTK), so why dont we just lower some of the weapons damage so that they fall inline with the armor now?

This wont be TL:DR its just a simple graph.

Blue is 10 Second AVG for Damage in MWO
Red is 10 Second AVG for Doubling Table Top
Yellow is 10 Second AVG for Table Top Damage.

So, what if we just made the weapons more consistent to the armor?

Edited by Lordred, 10 October 2014 - 08:13 AM.

[MrWhite]

I think it's worth looking into personally.

[FupDup]

In general it might be okay, but there are exceptions...

I.e. your numbers/TT numbers make the 2-rated ACs, 5-rated ACs, LRM5, and 2-rated [S]SRMs nearly unusable. The 10-rated ACs also get smashed hard. Even the Small Pulse, already gimped, gets hammered (the Clan one in particular gets utterly nerfed into the ground).



In the end, the problem isn't how much damage something does in an arbitrary 10-second window assuming that everybody stands stationary and face-tanks enemy fire. The problem is all of that damage instantly converging onto a single spot.

Edited by FupDup, 10 October 2014 - 08:14 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Because PGI?

[Lordred]

FupDup, on 10 October 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

In general it might be okay, but there are exceptions...

I.e. your numbers/TT numbers make the 2-rated ACs, 5-rated ACs, LRM5, and 2-rated [S]SRMs nearly unusable. The 10-rated ACs also get smashed hard. Even the Small Pulse, already gimped, gets hammered (the Clan one in particular gets utterly nerfed into the ground).

I am not saying we have to make this 100% as the table shows, but it is just a guide post, most of the weapons are doing WELL over double the source material, and we ONLY doubled the armor to make up for it.

But you also have to consider that HEAT is also way off from the source also, right now the ER- Large Lasers are the only weapon which are way to cold for the damage they do.

If you want to encourage people to use weapons besides Large Lasers, AC/20's, Gauss Rifles, and PPC's (granted PPC use is way down to its recent nerfs) we need to offer SOME benifit for the smaller weapons, which are WAY to hot.

Edited by Lordred, 10 October 2014 - 08:21 AM.

[FupDup]

Lordred, on 10 October 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

I am not saying we have to make this 100% as the table shows, but it is just a guide post, most of the weapons are doing WELL over double the source material, and we ONLY doubled the armor to make up for it.

But you also have to consider that HEAT is also way off from the source also, right now the ER- Large Lasers are the only weapon which are way to cold for the damage they do.

Lower heat wouldn't save the 'exception' cases I listed earlier. They'd still be bad.

Higher heat would kill the Inner Sphere Large, ER Large, and Large Pulse lasers. They got buffed relative to their TT stats because they weren't particularly good in TT. In this case, all three were generally second-class citizens to the PPC.

The Clan ER Large might survive the change, but just barely if at all. Remember that TT's heat system only accounted for heat at the end of the turn, rather than applying heat to the scale immediately upon firing. That rather lenient system made high-heat weapons very easy to manage without reaching penalties. But in real-time, your heat gets added to the scale immediately rather than after the end of the "turn." TT also allocated the 10 damage from the CERLL into a single hit location, rather than spread out over a beam duratio (the CERLL was basically a 4-ton PPC).

Edited by FupDup, 10 October 2014 - 08:27 AM.

[Adiuvo]

I'm not sure how high TTK needs to be for certain people to be satisfied.

It takes ages already unless you're facetanking or walking into a group of 5 people.

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 10 October 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

I'm not sure how high TTK needs to be for certain people to be satisfied.

It takes ages already unless you're facetanking or walking into a group of 5 people.

8 or so seconds? For an assault mech against an assault mech? Reasonable enough, I guess. 150 damage in that period of time. 0.6 seconds for Light mechs, 5 seconds for meds and some heavies.

[Lordred]

Adiuvo, on 10 October 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

I'm not sure how high TTK needs to be for certain people to be satisfied.

It takes ages already unless you're facetanking or walking into a group of 5 people.

TTK for lights is woefully quick to be honest, I pilot 20 and 25 toners more often then heavier mechs, and rounding a corner is a death sentence.

[Ultimax]

Why don't we instead drill it into people's heads that your time to live is dependent on your ability to play.


Just as the ability to remove select components is skill, so is the various things you can do to maximize your survival.


Stop expecting to be able to stand under a withering hail of focus fire from multiple mechs.

Lordred, on 10 October 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

TTK for lights is woefully quick to be honest, I pilot 20 and 25 toners more often then heavier mechs, and rounding a corner is a death sentence.

You do realize that he is a light mech specialist who plays with and against some of the deadliest Assault players in the game right?

[Lordred]

Ultimatum X, on 10 October 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

Stop expecting to be able to stand under a withering hail of focus fire from multiple mechs.

No on should expect that, ever.

But instead of slinging mud around, would you be interested in some constructive criticism?

[AztecD]

make the weapons cooler overall or adjust the Heatsinks to actually disipate heat, i mean a 19 SHS awesome cant fire 3 PPC (30 heat) without almost shutting down, it should shoot 1 maybe 2 alpha shots to be in the same heat level as 1 current alpha with SHS

If i upgrade to double, then DOUBLE my heatsink capability, i can make a 21DHS 3PPC awesome and still melt myself in a few voleys

[Rhent]

Pillow Tickle Warrior Online!

No thanks OP, horrible bad idea.

[Roland]

A lot of players tout the idea that increased time to kill is desirable, because they think that this will make them more competitive.

In reality, it'll actually make them less so, compared to better players.

As you increase time to kill, you actually extend the gap between players that results from skill. Poor players will get even fewer kills with a longer TTK.

[Adiuvo]

Mcgral18, on 10 October 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

8 or so seconds? For an assault mech against an assault mech? Reasonable enough, I guess. 150 damage in that period of time. 0.6 seconds for Light mechs, 5 seconds for meds and some heavies.

If you're dying in 8 seconds in an assault mech that is literally due to you facetanking, and in general playing poorly.

Lordred, on 10 October 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

TTK for lights is woefully quick to be honest, I pilot 20 and 25 toners more often then heavier mechs, and rounding a corner is a death sentence.

Rounding the corner against a lance of heavy mechs *should* be a death sentence.

[BlackIronTarkus]

TTK is OBVIOUSLY way too fast.

I havent played since the clan release, this week I tried coming back to MWO. What I discover is that TTK is even faster than it used to be. I used to be a good player, good enough to carry my team. So yeah, I jumped in my catapult K2, I got slaughered. I jumped into my jenner, I died instantly after trying to harass a direwolf. I tried spider 5k, couldnt even get close to use my machine guns.

The poking war is even worse than before. Of course, I wasnt lucky, I have tried to get back in MWO when MM is swarming with direwolves.

My reaction after that pleasant moment, was to laugh it off, turn off MWO and go play something else.

In other games where we play as humans, TTK actually feel slower than MWO... and we are supposed to be giant hulking metal machine. Yeah right...

Hell, TTK is longer in dark souls.

I will be back when TTK is at least back to where it was before the clan packs, until then, Im out.

[Rhent]

Any player that is at 100% that dies in 8 seconds has made serious tactical mistakes to die that fast. Things like:
-Me Atlas, me run in front lead charge. Team follow we victorious, me heap big hero!!!! Meanwhile the idiot runs into 6 mechs, doesn't torso turn and is cored in 3 seconds

-Me Spider, me invulnerable speed. Me run and get them chase the rabbit bring Atlas to team. Meanwhile, he gets his leg shot out and dies.

Those two scenarios happen in EVERY match. Turning weapons into pillows will not help stupid.

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 10 October 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

If you're dying in 8 seconds in an assault mech that is literally due to you facetanking, and in general playing poorly.

That's how long it takes to kill one. Deathstars are very effective. Whales are probably around that. Maybe even 6 seconds with that dual gauss laserspam.

[Ultimax]

Lordred, on 10 October 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

No on should expect that, ever.

But instead of slinging mud around, would you be interested in some constructive criticism?

Yes, my criticism is that the general consenus of TTK is wrong.

The data from matches that PGI has is also likely flawed.


Too many players stand out in the open and trade shots.

They don't work to spread damage enough.

They don't consider their positioning enough.


Most players think TTK while facetanking needs to be improved, or that rounding a corner facing assaults/heavies should see them live.

You're supposed to die in that situation. Those are the breaks.


Sometimes it's a mistake, sometimes it's poor play and sometimes it's bad luck. That's all OK though.



Increasing player time to survive when making mistakes or playing poorly doesn't help anyone, very specifically poor players.

They don't learn to get better and when coming up against a very skilled or veteran player, it will reduce their chances of ever scoring a kill.



I'm not super player, I'm definitely not top tier or very high elo.


However I'm good enough to recognize and analyze what happened when I die, and the vast majority of cases it's because either I made a mistake and was punished or my team simply collapsed.

Suck it up, get better and join a new match.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 10 October 2014 - 09:19 AM.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 10 October 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

That's how long it takes to kill one. Deathstars are very effective. Whales are probably around that. Maybe even 6 seconds with that dual gauss laserspam.

This is possible, but usually those circumstances were determined by team positioning, target vs. target positioning, etc.

Yes, a DWF can core a mech who is standing out in the open in a few volleys of gigaspike pain.


On the other hand, I've had targets I thought for sure I could remove quickly live much longer because they kept moving, shielded a wounded side or found cover, or another mech ran interference, or my team abandoned me and left my flank exposed etc.

Part of TTK is not just absorbing raw damage, part of it is the circumstances of the match - including both personal play and team work.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 10 October 2014 - 08:59 AM.